[Q4P]

Originally Posted by RobBeck

And there you have your $30k in mods and prepped drag car. Now let's start addressing what we need to put all our newfound power to the pavement. Or better yet, start a new thread. Those looking for a modestly built 500-600whp street car can continue to follow along here. Lol.

Rob, I respect what you've done for the community but a modestly built 500-600whp car is one that has an upgraded fuel pump, turbos, bolt ons and maybe a meth kit? I would like to see those stock internals after a while at those power levels and reliability at that point as a daily driver. Let's remember, this is an aluminum block with cast iron cylinder liners, a stock head, and stock pistons and rods (which as strong as they may be), I would like to see them after getting beaten on for a few years at said power levels, I do not see many people upgrading their pistons and rods on this engine when this fuel upgrade comes out. Point being, once you get to that level, you run into other problems. Even a Supra with a stock block and internals which are forged from the factory takes a certain amount of beating at that level and can last so long...

I love to scratch the cat's back!

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

I dont necessarily disagree, but I think the point was instead of "waiting" for a solution, find a different solution that may potentially work and let someone else figure out the optimum solution.


***

To answer the other guy I dont think everyone here is seeking a 9 second drag car. I think most people are happy with a bump in power, some beg for a little more. After a little more, you are flirting with a lot of money and time.

This begs the question on market size.... Personally, 450 rwhp would be ample power for a DD.

Dzenno has 500/500 in his car - I guess limited by fuel - but Dzenno, can you get that current power down to the road and use it?

What is the market for 500-600 rwhp cars in this forum? I would think 10% of 335i owners and that would be generous I would think.

As someone else said, what else do you start to break (half shafts come to mind from members here) with this much hp and tq? When do you turn the car into a maintenance nightmare?

For the masses - I would put the priority on:
1) the current Vishnu upgrade plan on their website listing what each upgrade gives you (this is great)
- Priority 1 for me would be the new underhood meth kit out - people are lining up for that. That gives me (I think) about 420 at the wheels. Not too shabby, and from what I read, reliable and you don't break things. This would be more than adequate for 90% of the people doing these upgrades.

2) An out of warranty LPFP, HPFP and injector SOLUTION/FIX for ALL 3 series cars - the market for this is HUGE - but I wouldn't make them have to put in a procede to control it... just fix BMW's mess and start printing money - and allow people to replace things as needed (maybe).

3) the rest of the 10% of the people that want 500-600 - go full blown on this fuel system and go nuts, work out the bugs, figure out what breaks and then the market would get bigger - like maybe me.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

That all goes without saying, we all know the more power the more wear etc etc etc. My point is that its possible that with all the bolt ons, ENOUGH FUEL, good tuning, exceptional maintenance/servicing, and some general common sense we may find we can have a clean 500-600rwhp thats actually fairly reliable. I really wouldnt be shocked if the foundation is up to the task, and if so that would be one hell of a street car. Much beyond that, Im sure we are opening a pandoras box of issues/problems/upgrades... and quite frankly going any beyond that is way out of my range of interest anyway. I'd be content with a 475-550rwhp with a safety margin of fuel, but there again I prefer two wheels for the most part anyway so my goals may not match the next guys.

Anyway we must be reasonably patient to see where the stepping stones take us. But as said before though, if someone wants to go big or go home... totally gut their nice BMWs electronics and start over from scratch with all the facets of the platform more power to them for $30k+ in final hardware/tuning plus another $15k+ in trial and error, be my guest. Not my cup of tea, and I believe many others share the sentiment.

Originally Posted by Questforpower

Rob, I respect what you've done for the community but a modestly built 500-600whp car is one that has an upgraded fuel pump, turbos, bolt ons and maybe a meth kit? I would like to see those stock internals after a while at those power levels and reliability at that point as a daily driver. Let's remember, this is an aluminum block with cast iron cylinder liners, a stock head, and stock pistons and rods (which as strong as they may be), I would like to see them after getting beaten on for a few years at said power levels, I do not see many people upgrading their pistons and rods on this engine when this fuel upgrade comes out. Point being, once you get to that level, you run into other problems. Even a Supra with a stock block and internals which are forged from the factory takes a certain amount of beating at that level and can last so long...

I love to scratch the cat's back!

[Transport3r]

Regarding our rods and crank, I don't think we should run into too many problems. The rods are fracture split single crystal forged
I think the weakest internal components are the pistons, which I think would be fine as long as you keep the IAT's in check..

[NY135]

Very Nice Work

[AltecBX]

High Pressure Pump info

[DefactoM6]

So it looks like if we modify or disable those pressure control valves, overdriving the pump is a very real solution to increasing flow!

[AltecBX]

I believe that can be a solution if it can be done without any side affect.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by DaFish

This begs the question on market size.... Personally, 450 rwhp would be ample power for a DD.

Dzenno has 500/500 in his car - I guess limited by fuel - but Dzenno, can you get that current power down to the road and use it?

What is the market for 500-600 rwhp cars in this forum? I would think 10% of 335i owners and that would be generous I would think.

As someone else said, what else do you start to break (half shafts come to mind from members here) with this much hp and tq? When do you turn the car into a maintenance nightmare?

For the masses - I would put the priority on:
1) the current Vishnu upgrade plan on their website listing what each upgrade gives you (this is great)
- Priority 1 for me would be the new underhood meth kit out - people are lining up for that. That gives me (I think) about 420 at the wheels. Not too shabby, and from what I read, reliable and you don't break things. This would be more than adequate for 90% of the people doing these upgrades.

2) An out of warranty LPFP, HPFP and injector SOLUTION/FIX for ALL 3 series cars - the market for this is HUGE - but I wouldn't make them have to put in a procede to control it... just fix BMW's mess and start printing money - and allow people to replace things as needed (maybe).

3) the rest of the 10% of the people that want 500-600 - go full blown on this fuel system and go nuts, work out the bugs, figure out what breaks and then the market would get bigger - like maybe me.

Well, I dont plan on keeping my car for one. Most of the reason is I dont like older cars, but what is selling me on not keeping it is the reliability aspect of this car and its quirks. Not to mention its limited capabilities, fueling.

Coming up with a feasible solutions would certainly have me reconsider keeping the car a little longer, and maybe getting a few parts including bigger turbo's. But thats just me.

So you could say there is probably other people out there thinking the samething as me. I'm not a person to use methanol as a fueling bandaid so thats why I'm on the sidelines on the search for 500WHP+ that way.

[CobraMarty]

So has anyone placed a fuel pressure sensor at the inlet of the HPFP to see if it gets the 72PSI all the time or if it falls at anytime? Nobody has datalogged this? WOT, low rpm, high rpm, etc.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

So has anyone placed a fuel pressure sensor at the inlet of the HPFP to see if it gets the 72PSI all the time or if it falls at anytime? Nobody has datalogged this? WOT, low rpm, high rpm, etc.

I don't get why we are trying to run this at 72PSI when the lower PSI generates more flow.

"So when running 72psi (vs 43psi), the pumps drew almost 20% more current. And lost nearly 30% fuel flow! More interestingly, the older, used Pump 2 responded more negatively than the brand new Pump 1 to the higher pressure, suggested that these LPFPs may not be capable of supporting the same maximum fuel demand over their full operational life. And when running lower pressure, both pumps offered nearly identical performance. This makes perfect sense since the pumps were less stressed at the lower pump speed.


At 72psi:
Pump 1.... 356 lbs/hr @ 12.2 Amps
Pump 2.... 300 lbs/hr @ 13.5 Amps

And at 43psi:
Pump 1.... 442 lbs/hr @ 10.6 Amps
Pump 2.... 430 lbs/hr @ 10.7 Amps
"

Can somebody explain this? Does the HPFP run at 72 PSI now? Does it NEED to run at 72PSI for the injectors - what am I missing?

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I don't get why we are trying to run this at 72PSI when the lower PSI generates more flow.

"So when running 72psi (vs 43psi), the pumps drew almost 20% more current. And lost nearly 30% fuel flow! More interestingly, the older, used Pump 2 responded more negatively than the brand new Pump 1 to the higher pressure, suggested that these LPFPs may not be capable of supporting the same maximum fuel demand over their full operational life. And when running lower pressure, both pumps offered nearly identical performance. This makes perfect sense since the pumps were less stressed at the lower pump speed.


At 72psi:
Pump 1.... 356 lbs/hr @ 12.2 Amps
Pump 2.... 300 lbs/hr @ 13.5 Amps

And at 43psi:
Pump 1.... 442 lbs/hr @ 10.6 Amps
Pump 2.... 430 lbs/hr @ 10.7 Amps
"

Can somebody explain this? Does the HPFP run at 72 PSI now? Does it NEED to run at 72PSI for the injectors - what am I missing?

The LPFP runs at 72psi...the HPFP runs at about 4,000psi. And yes, it would certainly appear that the HPFP does need the 72psi.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

So has anyone placed a fuel pressure sensor at the inlet of the HPFP to see if it gets the 72PSI all the time or if it falls at anytime? Nobody has datalogged this? WOT, low rpm, high rpm, etc.

At higher power levels or with older pumps, I have logged pressure drop at the HPFP inlet.

Shiv

[CobraMarty]

Nice to see the logged pressure drop. In the past on my 'old school' GMC Syclone when tuned to 450+HP I watched the FP like a hawk. If there was drop in FP I would get off it quickly. Whatever the cause, a drop in FP meant lean conditions and detonation and broken parts.
Why doesn't anyone monitor their FP? No guages?

[Brey335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

At higher power levels or with older pumps, I have logged pressure drop at the HPFP inlet.

Shiv

So any idea of when we'll see part 3 of this write-up? It seems you have a pretty good idea what's going on and I suspect that you have already started testing the solutions...

[NM_BMW]

What about the 1M? Is the LPFP the same as the rest of our N54 cars?

[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by Humtek

What about the 1M? Is the LPFP the same as the rest of our N54 cars?

I would probably think so. The 1M is not a 450+ HP car.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

I would probably think so. The 1M is not a 450+ HP car.

you know... this is a pretty good question... if the 1M has a pretty big defect like we have, BMW may actually have to fix this.... can't have the precious "M" cars have big defects... can we.

What does the 1M have... 335hp or something... that maybe be good for parallel parking, but if I got one, there would be some serious upgrades going into that.... then you would have something !

[Brey335i]

As long as the pump doesn't fail at stock boost levels, then BMW doesn't have to do anything. In fact, they would probably love it if the 1M was impossible to mod. They'd still sell a ton of them

[Rotorocious]

This reminds me. I think i logged fuel pressures on my last dyno runs months ago via ob2 Dyno jet logger.
it logged a ton of different sensors, i remember a few of them relating to fuel. I'll try to dig them up

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Questforpower

Here is an idea; remove the DI system all together and install a standard head. Install a walbro 255 Pump, fabricate different fuel lines and larger injectors or use a double pumper system as one used in a Supra which is a 3.0L straight six twin turbo engine as well and re-tune for that...


Oh wait, this isn't the Toyota forums...

Not trying to be a troll but thinking realistically if someone put the time and effort into doing this in the first place, we might have had a 600-700 WHP 335i by now. This effort would surely have taken less than 4 years and created a simpler system as used in every other motor with great amounts of power.

I understand the advantages of DI are great (fuel efficiency, easy and quick power) but as of the current time being (2011, there is only so far that DI can get you, all Mazdaspeed3 and GTI's are in essence tied down by a complicated fueling system as is this platform. Evo's, Supra's and GTR's, dont seem to have any of these problems..... any connection to DI?

Btw, I did have a 335i and absolutely loved it for its ability to incorporate speed, class, and an amazing ability to DD. But in no way was the N54 built to be a drag racer 600-700 hp machine.

- A

While in theory this sounds simple, if we're going to be setting up a standard PI fuel system & swapping over to a PI head/manifold (assuming one of the NA heads will bolt up to the N54 short block), it's also a fantastic idea to factor in the cost of lower compression pistons, as the 10.3:1 CR isn't going to play very nice with 15+psi of boost on pump gas, and while we're at it, we're going to need to likely swap over to a standalone EM system in order to control fueling since the MSD80/81 was programmed to run DI.... honestly, at that point, you might as well just sell your 335, pick up a 328, build it and boost it if you want to stay on the same chassis. Although, if I was after 600-700whp power levels, and drag racing was my main concern, I might consider switching to a different platform *cough*American V8*couch*.

Realize that aftermarket vendors for other DI platforms (VW & the Mazda MZR engine come to mind) have come up with HPFP solutions that are significantly cheaper/easier to install than what you have proposed. I don't know about you, but while aftermarket DI components are not as easily supplied as many PI-based applications, I'm not ready to give up the additional detonation resistance that DI seems to bring to the table (hence the uber-high compression ratios & ability to run lean AFR's under load without catastrophic failure). That's just me though.

Just my $.02

[JoeyFiasco]

so what Questforpower is saying is "don't develop or move our platform forward, turn it into something we know how to work on and has been around for decades"