[M9 L]

Logic behind is thicker oil is more dense, hence less prone flowing through seal.

Anyway it did not help at all, if anything things got worse, the car is now smoking all the time at idle and its getting too smely to drive. Smoking is reducec at higher RPMs.

[M9 L]

Dzenno, great job on the oil pressure!

[Adam Way]

I'll have my vehicle back up and running on Tuesday. How does one get oil contamination in a sealed system with a filter?

[dzenno]

Adam, when you get your car back, PLEASE let the car warm up and try not to go into boost at all, just drive outside of boost, shut it down, let it sit 2 mins, turn it back on and rev it a bit and see if it smokes...are you catless?

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by M9 L

Logic behind is thicker oil is more dense, hence less prone flowing through seal.

Anyway it did not help at all, if anything things got worse, the car is now smoking all the time at idle and its getting too smely to drive. Smoking is reducec at higher RPMs.

You tried going with thicker oil? What did you run originally and what did you try?

[Adam Way]

Dzenno. You bet.

I am full catless.

[R1000K3]

It seems RB's sucks (oil) at the moment

[dzenno]

if it is then i'd say pukes instead of sucks

[badass335]

Originally Posted by dzenno

if it is then i'd say pukes instead of sucks

So what's the number ratio out there having this issue? I mean, I believe there are at least 20-30 people out there withthese, no? So far how many do we have smoking?
Dzenno
Adam

As a community, I believe people should be honest and let others know if there are possible issues or concerns here. This applies to any product, not just turbos. If it's a design flaw, or rush job, Rob will stand behind it, we know but there are 12-14 guys who are still on the 'soon' list. Personally, I would be pissed if my car was still smoking, after paying $3000!

[jippii ensio]

The oil system in the stock turbos and RBs seems to be the same, so if you take FBO high boosting cars, the ratio of smoking vs non-smoking should be the same between RBs and stock turbos.

[M9 L]

Originally Posted by dzenno

You tried going with thicker oil? What did you run originally and what did you try?

I had BMW recomended Castrol SAE 30 (default for 335 at the dealer), I tried BMW High Power Oil SAE 40. Apartenly this is what X5M is running.

[dzenno]

Here's what I received from someone on another forum who has seen the issue develop over time and who's done some research on the topic...please tell me this isn't the case with RBs but it seems that it is though

The TD-04 as you know is a 20+ year old technology, it was designed for use in turbocharged Mitsubishi automotive applications (as Mitsubishi designs the TD-04 anyway). The oil pressures when it was implemented were not as high as we see today. Since it was such a useful cartridge they handed it over to the next generation of cars. These cars had higher oil pressure and as a result smoked just like you and other members are experiencing. Mitsubishi was commissioned with a ton of warranty work for supposed blown turbos. Because of this Mitsubishi contracted Garrett to make them a cartridge meant for higher oil pressures. That's right, the maker of the cartridge and car had someone else make a new cartridge because of this oil pressure issue. I don't know the full detailed saga but from the information I have gathered it seems to be the case. I am not putting down Rob or his practice, just letting you know there is a long recorded history for the TD-04 smoking oil in higher oil pressure cars, and that's why Mitsubishi no longer uses their own cartridge. As a result, afaik, TD-04 cartridges can be had for ~$100 because of the application limitation. Hope this helps

This guy has tons of respect for Rob and didn't want to post this info publicly but I see no reason not to as it's just another discussion/research item and given I've done quite a bit on that so far I'd like to know if this is indeed the case. Given normal operating range for these is about 40-50 something psi and N54 operates well below at 25 psi at no load and 65-70psi under load, how do these CHRAs behave given N54's oil pressure is just borderline within spec

[enrita]

I have the same td04 cartridge on my turbo dynamics and have no smoke... Yet..

[Funkmob]

As Dzenno and Rob know i'm also having the same issues. In the meantime i inspected compression and the PCV system , all is working fine. I was hoping Dzenno's oil pressure testing would clear all but it seems the cartridges are not designed for higher oil pressure.

Still hoping for a quick and simple sollution cause i'd hate to take these turbo's off again and ship them back overseas.

[Irishace]

Jesus, what a nightmare. I feel for all of you that are experiencing these issues.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Irishrace,
I do to.

dzenno,
The original turbo on this car is a TD03, which is still used and implemented as of today (even on the new 1M and 335is). It is the same technology folks, and yes it must be very horrible in order to still be used on these $50k MSRP brand new vehicles.

I'd also like to see proof that Garrett now makes MHI turbos. I am nearly certain the source of that entire quote originated from a competitor (as I've heard him say the same thing before as he is partial to Garrett); yet may have cascaded through a few people before getting to dzenno. Either way it's still unfounded, incorrect, and hilarious. The only correct portion is the age of the unit from origin, but that doesn't mean it's no longer the flagship and not utilized by many Automobile manufacturers til this day. That's like saying an older engine block is no longer worthy, as it was originated 20 years ago. It's the wheel designs that have evolved over time, and the units I use are still used today.

Yes the RB AND TD Stage 2 are a TD04 (which is simply a big brother of the TD03), which is ALSO being implemented and used on new vehicles today (Subaru, Volvo, Saab, etc). They are also a magnificent foundation for upgraded hybrid turbochargers, they have been for years and also with great success. They are a perfect medium size to be used in twin turbo applications, providing great boost response and also can make big power (something that is hard to win both ways).

Dzennos oil pressure results have determined that the N54 is a good match for them in regards to the oil pressure requirements (28-71psi FLRS). The N54 seems to also have an oil pressure relief valve, which may bypass the filtration area of the filter, set at around 70psi. I'd be concerned if later down the road the relief valve is modified to increase oil pressure, then I may need to consider a restrictor of sorts. Now that this is a known, I'd definitely agree there is no need for one.

Regarding TD04 Cost: Can you find a older and used unmodified TD04 that would never work on the N54 without significant modifications and still not be new somewhere for $100? Probably. And then I am sure you can just get 2 and bolt them right up and be done for $200? Way to downplay the costs affiliated with this project. You can find any turbo cheap that is used that will not work on this car. Contrary to what some may believe there is very little markup after all is said and done, and you would think some would understand that especially since the TD equivalents are over 2x the price without the cartridge modifications to work with the OEM lines nor the "full" internal wastegate upgrades (which is very expensive in itself).

I realize there is(are) hidden campaign(s) involved with this propoganda distribution, some known (initiator) and some presumed (competitive); I simply do not have the time to counter these accusations any further, privately or publicly. I accept that there will be some fall out rate and I will not be able to control them all. All I can do is handle all that I encounter as fairly as I can or as reasonable as a customer could come to expect. That does not include paying for all labors involved in your affairs or for offering full refunds in order for you to keep quiet. I'd rather air out issues as they come, if they come, and hope they are few.

The remaining customers who have positive experiences I hope overshadow those who believe they haven't had the best of luck, unfortunately not all of them are on these forums all the time. But I'm sure one day if they have a problem they will be. If you believe you are a customer who has a problem, you know where to contact me.

That said this will be my last post in this thread.

[dzenno]

Rob there is no propaganda here. There is an issue that keeps coming back with some RB installs. My intention is not to attack you or your product. I waited almost two years for R&D to be completed and to receive them only to have issues for 7 months post install which remain to this day. The reason I'm worried more now than before is that you indicated that there are no other options to try to solve this issue. So now I'm out 4k for turbos and parts 800 for initial install, 300 for shipping the first set down and back after warranty service which you charged me 250 for and then another 800 to put them back on again only to have smoke right after putting them on again. After that last 5 months were spent testing crankcase pressures spending another 100 on the gauge and 400 on playing with the valve cover including tapping my valve cover which isn't reversible and will eventually require a new valve cover/labor to revert back. On top of all that the time/frustration I invested into this is what can't be earned back. It's your choice how to approach this issue and if you'll continue to respond. I'm actually surprised you ended that post saying you won't respond further here. That so called propaganda came from a member that has a ton of respect for you and they didn't want to even post it. I did because there's nothing to be gained in keeping things quite. Even if it is propaganda isnt it better to know about it so you can respond to it with facts in an educated way so the propaganda can be no more? Personally if this was my product I'd definitely want to know these things so they can properly be addressed.

Now in addition to what I received last night here's a bit more I received. It can well be propaganda depending on who's writing/reading it but I'm simp looking for an educated response like always.

Did you get see Rob's response? Even after I asked for it not to be public and you put it over on e90, Rob still shows respect and doesn't bash back or anything of the sort, this is exactly why I respect him so much and didn't want to have this posted. But it was your choice entirely and I respect that too. Anyway onto his response, the TD-03 is indeed the stock cartridge. The reason it doesn't smoke is because of the oil reliefs integrated into the bearing housing as far as my research shows, also it was implemented on this car and tested on this engine, so its no wonder why it doesn't smoke... could BMW put out a car that eats through oil and smokes like crazy? Of course not. Anyway I'm not here to play games with you in the middle of this whole debacle. I just wanted to share some information I found on the internet while searching for similar issues and the history of the cartridge. Its sad he says there's a hidden campaign because I never intended that, I never wanted to post so called 'propaganda' which is why i kept it to PM. I really, really hope you can get this sorted out in one way or another, whether it be a feed restrictor or a modified bearing housing oil relief or who knows... god man after all you've been through with your misfire gremlin this must just be the straw that broke the camels back! At least for me it would be, please keep me, and hopefully the community, updated on what you end up working out with Rob. From what I can tell he will never leave you hanging, which is more than awesome. My best and again, good luck

I'd like to know about the pressure relief in the bearing area specifically, if this is indeed the case on the td03 but not on RBs and how/if that was modified.

[Clap135]

So if CC pressures are not the issue, and oil pressures are not the issues, then whats the issue rob? The people who smoke did compression tests/leak down tests and everything came back within BMW specs. Running away from a thread like this is probabaly the worst thing you can do, but hey what do I know. I don't know what you do for a living but if I were you I would replace the smoking sets and move onto something else.

I've said this before, people who get these crank the boost. Imo these turbos are simply being over worked and the seals go. Proove me otherwise.

[dzenno]

The 2nd brand new set I got smoked without doing a single WOT pull right after the install

[ultimateracing335]

I have video of my first few pulls and I have puffs.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by dzenno

The 2nd brand new set I got smoked without doing a single WOT pull right after the install

You might have have oil in the exhaust from the prior set/install/uninstall.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

dzenno,

I appreciate your concern and I appreciate your informants appreciation for myself, but he is sorely mistaken. His sources of internet ramblings or from people "not in the know" are as you would expect, incorrect. I have many BMW specific TD03 Cartridges and have handled hundreds of TD04 Cartridges. There is no mystery oil relief modification put into place because of BMW requirements or anything for that matter on the TD03 Center. They are exactly the same, aside TD04 is a bigger stronger center that houses a bigger shaft and bearings. You should know this, as I have told you that many many many times. All I have done is modified it EXTERNALLY to accept the OEM lines and OEM housings, not to minimize that effort as it is a hell lot of work. Man if it were that simple I'd LOVE to say, "dude it's the mystery oil relief portion of the cartridge, totally slipped my mind let me remedy for you!!".

Your testing of crankcase pressures was appreciated by the community as a whole, including myself. You found that some OCC's can and do have restrictions, I feel you identified some of the better options to purchase for those who fully believe in OCC's benefits and have to have one. Not to mention the additional discussions to follow revealing how they only are collecting in "high load" conditions, and do nothing in "low load" conditions aside for allow reverse airflow back through the setup and into the crankcase. BUT I never not even once asked for it, and I am sorry that you decided to do all that only to act later as if it was something I expected you had done and thus all the expense and hassle you incurred was my fault. That was simply your response to your front turbo failing after doing approx 100+ pulls on a dyno/street in a 10 or so hour session, many of which were apparently with a OCC that was deemed junk and later trashed, not to mention a kinked front oil return line to boot. The thought was that one or both caused the failure, which is not out of line in the least bit. Your failure was thrust bearing related and looked rather unique, so it was a gray issue. Anyhow you decided to follow up with all of that testing to "confirm" those suspicions at your own will and for your own knowledge and to share with the community, although the troubled part was already in the trash by that point so it was never known what if any restriction or problem it imposed. Some (or many) in my position would tell you to go pound sand in that situation. I initially intended on splitting the parts difference with you, but ended up opting for less than 1/4 payment; all was agreed upon and everyone was happy.

And now I see you have threads all over about how much horsepower your car makes via an application and are actively driving it around as it is road worthy PLUS you have my continued support of product, yet you are "out of $4k". You have an oil consumption figure that you believe is solely turbo related, because you "never had an issue before". Perhaps it is solely turbos and you are 100% correct. But consider that many people go to the BMW dealership and they tell them your rate of consumption is normal. I have seen 100s of TD03s from this very car and see that alot of them use some oil yet otherwise appear to be in good condition, they are not all perfect in all applications. You also have told me many different times your rate and it often shifts. I honestly don't know what it is aside for your latest figure, which still isn't way out of line all things considered. I'm sure some others will come on and counter me and say how there car has never used a drop so you shouldn't either, but not all are created equal unfortunately; and not all that are perfect will be perfect until the end of time especially while making more power and being ran harder continually. I do have customers who would also say the same about no oil consumption whatsoever as well, even with FBO (no exhaust), one of which who has the world 1/4 mile record (afaik).

I know you are looking for some conspiracy, something amiss, and will stop not until you find what you believe to be the smoking gun (no pun intended), and I really hope that you do. All the time I have spoke with you it was me trying to help you do the same. As for the oil pressure, it's something that had been bothering you not knowing for quite some time. It's also something I never expected of you, but I did ask you if you knew what the N54 specs were and conveniently enough you said you had a oil pressure adapter on order. Perfect, why should I not ask YOU what you find on your gauge that you already had ordered to see if just by some chance it could be your issue? Your data confirmed the numbers are a great match for my Turbos as I had initially expected and experienced firsthand. I am alot like you, try to stop at nothing until I find perfection. And the last thing I am looking for is to piss off everyone on the internet with a product that is sub par. Being that I am active on the forums, and many forum members buy from me, I do set myself up for these types of discussions and that is fine.

If there is something I can do I will and you should know this, but there are limitations. If you believe your turbos are the culprit for all your woes, you know how to reach me. But going back and forth with you is something we have done for months, sometimes in daily 8 hour shifts and you know that is no exaggeration. You have always known the method for inspecting turbos, and I have many times told you to check them out if you'd like. I wouldn't doubt if I've spoken, emailed, or otherwise racked my brain for hundreds of hours trying to help out the situation you are having; not even limited to your oil consumption but also your misfire. At this point and going forward I have learned to just say "If you feel there is someting wrong with your turbos send them back and I will take a look at them, rebuild, replace, or anything I can think of." And hopefully, it's a rare or minimal occasion when I have to do as such. I really don't know what more you can expect out of me.

Oh and your source (although maybe well respected and a super nice guy) is really uninformed and you probably need to stop listening to him until he knows for a fact what he is saying, that way I do not have to keep coming on here to tell you how abc123xyz789 is incorrect.

Thanks,
Rob

Originally Posted by dzenno

Rob there is no propaganda here. There is an issue that keeps coming back with some RB installs. My intention is not to attack you or your product. I waited almost two years for R&D to be completed and to receive them only to have issues for 7 months post install which remain to this day. The reason I'm worried more now than before is that you indicated that there are no other options to try to solve this issue. So now I'm out 4k for turbos and parts 800 for initial install, 300 for shipping the first set down and back after warranty service which you charged me 250 for and then another 800 to put them back on again only to have smoke right after putting them on again. After that last 5 months were spent testing crankcase pressures spending another 100 on the gauge and 400 on playing with the valve cover including tapping my valve cover which isn't reversible and will eventually require a new valve cover/labor to revert back. On top of all that the time/frustration I invested into this is what can't be earned back. It's your choice how to approach this issue and if you'll continue to respond. I'm actually surprised you ended that post saying you won't respond further here. That so called propaganda came from a member that has a ton of respect for you and they didn't want to even post it. I did because there's nothing to be gained in keeping things quite. Even if it is propaganda isnt it better to know about it so you can respond to it with facts in an educated way so the propaganda can be no more? Personally if this was my product I'd definitely want to know these things so they can properly be addressed.

Now in addition to what I received last night here's a bit more I received. It can well be propaganda depending on who's writing/reading it but I'm simp looking for an educated response like always.



I'd like to know about the pressure relief in the bearing area specifically, if this is indeed the case on the td03 but not on RBs and how/if that was modified.