[shifterboy45]

thats one reason i alway warn folks -- whatever you write may come back to bite you in the butt. or at the very least raise doubts

[vasillalov]

Good good! A lot of interesting information is being pulled out of the archive which I believe will be very helpful for the newcomers to this forum, myself included.

[InCityPhoto]

Haha you guys are to funny, you act as if Shiv created everything that is to be and to ever become.

Does it really matter? No. If Terry seriously did something wrong, Im sure Shiv would have sued him in this sue happy world.

Trying to make someone look bad is childish, These were over 3 years ago!!

Pespi Copied Coke, Windows copied Mac, Mac copied Linux.

Grow up guys..

[Litos]

Originally Posted by techlogik

It would be a huge "We told you so!" fiesta, and hypocritically situation that his precious ego/pride couldn't handle, and maybe his business would fall sharply off.

well, it hasn't happened in 3 years - will you be waiting ANOTHER 3 years for this awesome celebration !?!?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Haha you guys are to funny, you act as if Shiv created everything that is to be and to ever become.

Does it really matter? No. If Terry seriously did something wrong, Im sure Shiv would have sued him in this sue happy world.

Trying to make someone look bad is childish, These were over 3 years ago!!

Pespi Copied Coke, Windows copied Mac, Mac copied Linux.

Grow up guys..

Clearly, you didnt read anything posted. As nobody ever mentioned copying as a main concern. Its what was said in those post about tuning practices that brings up an interesting discussion. Its now clear you have a one track mind.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Haha you guys are to funny, you act as if Shiv created everything that is to be and to ever become.

Does it really matter? No. If Terry seriously did something wrong, Im sure Shiv would have sued him in this sue happy world.

Trying to make someone look bad is childish, These were over 3 years ago!!

Pespi Copied Coke, Windows copied Mac, Mac copied Linux.

Grow up guys..

You don't understand anything do you... it's not that Terry "stole" anything, it's that he thought certain tuning parameters are important in the beginning, but now, they aren't.

some may think he stole info, but in my opinion he made an awesome business from the knowledge at hand. He didn't even have FI experience in the beginning and he has the majority market in N54 tuning. Great business prowess.... but not the best product.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Sniz

saw that one too, i'm sure he got into them eventually, couldnt be that hard.

Actually I think it was Rick @ P3 cars who is now a Vishnu dealer that cracked code and showed you could open the Vishnu maps with the Haltech software. That wasn't supposed to be able to work becuase back then Vishnu claimed the PROcede was not a Haltech related product. I guess that rubbed a few people the wrong way so they went on to show the maps and the interface were identical. Mostly before my time so not familiar with the specific details.

If you're interested in Terry's opinion on those old posts he happened to reply to "Beemw" on another forum:

+1 on posting my 2007 posts. All good stuff. Back then Shiv was the only tuner offering an N54 tune and he dramatically overcharged for what it did. A few of us, spearheaded by me, were developing an "open source" project called the Terry Tuner. Later that product became the JB1. Interestingly after awhile Shiv tried to recreate magic in a bottle by releasing his "Happy Meal" DIY tuner but the design was flawed and it didn't catch on. But I will say over the course of that first year or two we collectively learned a lot more about the platform and subsequently all tuners products improved dramatically. If you want a good laugh research "procede V2" and the epic problems they had with that system. Generation for generation the JB products have consistently given their owners fewer headaches than the alternatives and that has played a large role in our continued success.

Also I'd like to throw in a personal laugh for anyone who is suggesting BMS does not "believe" in retarding timing under boost. Find me a post showing that. What you guys are arguing about is how and why the timing retard works but if someone is suggesting timing isn't being retarded they really need to get their head checked.

Mike

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

You don't understand anything do you... it's not that Terry "stole" anything, it's that he thought certain tuning parameters are important in the beginning, but now, they aren't.

some may think he stole info, but in my opinion he made an awesome business from the knowledge at hand. He didn't even have FI experience in the beginning and he has the majority market in N54 tuning. Great business prowess.... but not the best product.

How can YOU say he is not saying that they are not "important" when he is building them into his product?

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Actually I think it was Rick @ P3 cars who is now a Vishnu dealer that cracked code and showed you could open the Vishnu maps with the Haltech software. That wasn't supposed to be able to work becuase back then Vishnu claimed the PROcede was not a Haltech related product. I guess that rubbed a few people the wrong way so they went on to show the maps and the interface were identical. Mostly before my time so not familiar with the specific details.

If you're interested in Terry's opinion on those old posts he happened to reply to "Beemw" on another forum:



Also I'd like to throw in a personal laugh for anyone who is suggesting BMS does not "believe" in retarding timing under boost. Find me a post showing that. What you guys are arguing about is how and why the timing retard works but if someone is suggesting timing isn't being retarded they really need to get their head checked.

Mike

This is the most in-depth reply I have seen from Terry. I would love some detailed explanation as to how this is implemented. Otherwise WTF....
*******************
The DME does the majority of the timing adjustment through its long and short term trims as it does with all other piggybacks. We intervene during transitions and special circumstances (like during meth failure or spool up) when needed. Timing values average 3-5 degrees lower than stock with the JB4. The notion that the JB3 or JB4 runs stock timing values at double the boost is ridiculous. We're coming up on 5000 cars tuned between those platforms now with tens of millions of hard customer driven miles. If advance was stock not a single car would make it around the block without blowing a headgasket. The debate is really whether our timing control method is better or worse than the next guys but we've proven our methods work very well over the years.
***********************

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by TakeOne

can you post your dyno...

Which one would you like to see?

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

This is the most in-depth reply I have seen from Terry. I would love some detailed explanation as to how this is implemented. Otherwise WTF....
*******************
The DME does the majority of the timing adjustment through its long and short term trims as it does with all other piggybacks. We intervene during transitions and special circumstances (like during meth failure or spool up) when needed. Timing values average 3-5 degrees lower than stock with the JB4. The notion that the JB3 or JB4 runs stock timing values at double the boost is ridiculous. We're coming up on 5000 cars tuned between those platforms now with tens of millions of hard customer driven miles. If advance was stock not a single car would make it around the block without blowing a headgasket. The debate is really whether our timing control method is better or worse than the next guys but we've proven our methods work very well over the years.
***********************

Interesting, as the other part of the timing control history is that the JB3 marketing material claimed CPS offsetting. When the JB3 was put on the bench test that method was not in use (In Dec 2008). Then the promotional material disappeared and the attacks on CPS offsetting began:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196916

Within that thread:

"The Features:

Microcontroller programming opens up a new level of features that the JB3 can provide. Here is a partial list:

1) CPS offset (AKA "timing control"), which allows a little more boost on pump gas than we can with the JB2 variants. In addition boost will be mapped by RPM which is now fed in from the Crank Position Sensor..."

[e92bmw]

Wow guys, Im in an argument with Terry over on ***********, and when I asked him Why the jb4 doesnt have direct control on timing, he posted this:
Yes timing has been retarded with EVERY product we've ever released that increases boost. Starting with the $2 free Terry Tuner product you reference in 2007. Next.
Once again he doesnt want to admit that the jb4 doesnt actually control timing Directly!

Edit: This is Terrys response : To "directly control" timing you would need to fire the coil pack directly and I challenge you to find me an N54 product that does that. Piggbacks simply influence timing. We influence timing negative using the DME's adaptive long term trims. BMW left that mechanism there and while we use it more publicly than others rest assured every product out there including flash tunes are riding the knock sensors most of the time.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Also I'd like to throw in a personal laugh for anyone who is suggesting BMS does not "believe" in retarding timing under boost. Find me a post showing that. What you guys are arguing about is how and why the timing retard works but if someone is suggesting timing isn't being retarded they really need to get their head checked.
Mike

Agreed. I believe that BMS thinks timing control is essential under boost. It's always boiled down to active (CPS offsetting or tables in a flash) or reactive (through the DME logic).

I always wonder why when CPS offsetting has been out for this application in a piggy since 2008, that it's still forthcoming from BMS with the Pro board?

If it's going to be in the Pro board does BMS think it is important? If not, are you just including it for market share purposes?

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by beemw

Wow guys, Im in an argument with Terry over on ***********, and when I asked him Why the jb4 doesnt have direct control on timing, he posted this:
Yes timing has been retarded with EVERY product we've ever released that increases boost. Starting with the $2 free Terry Tuner product you reference in 2007. Next.
Once again he doesnt want to admit that the jb4 doesnt actually control timing Directly!

You can not win. Waste of time. The best that can be done is to show the history and let people make up their own mind.

[e92bmw]

Originally Posted by scottp999

You can not win. Waste of time. The best that can be done is to show the history and let people make up their own mind.

he said this:
To "directly control" timing you would need to fire the coil pack directly and I challenge you to find me an N54 product that does that. Piggbacks simply influence timing. We influence timing negative using the DME's adaptive long term trims. BMW left that mechanism there and while we use it more publicly than others rest assured every product out there including flash tunes are riding the knock sensors most of the time.

[e92bmw]

Originally Posted by scottp999

You can not win. Waste of time. The best that can be done is to show the history and let people make up their own mind.

Bro u have no idea over on bimmerb**st, they actaully told me this: The jb is better, thats a fact.
Lool how is that in any way shape or form a fact, and now Terry is avoiding my questions and all the jb fanboys are confused because I posted his old post about the Terry Tuner

[Proper Motion LLC]

Originally Posted by Clap135

im so irresponsible....some one spank me.

you guys will find alot of street racing vids. GTO, various ms3, caliber, rsx, subi, bmw by simply typing in that user name. How is this relevant to the discussion? Oh wait, its not....

Sorry got my videos mixed up, thought I found ur 135i on Dyno (but that was ur silver MS3 right?)

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Rysandro

Sorry got my videos mixed up, thought I found ur 135i on Dyno (but that was ur silver MS3 right?)

Don't know what vid your are reffering to. There is a 135i dyno vid of mine with a catted turboback and standback on 96 or so octane somehwere on there. I don't even remember what it made, somehwere in the 350-360 range i think.

[Proper Motion LLC]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Don't know what vid your are reffering to. There is a 135i dyno vid of mine with a catted turboback and standback on 96 or so octane somehwere on there. I don't even remember what it made, somehwere in the 350-360 range i think.

I meant that was ur silver MS3 racing the Red MS3 in the video?

[SennaZ]

Originally Posted by scottp999

The best that can be done is to show the history and let people make up their own mind.

This history has left me absolutely speechless. You almost feel like taking a bath or something to clean off the grime.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Bite me =D

this thread is a waste of 70 pages, There is nothing proving anything other then knock is bad, stock 335i knock.

As unbelievable as it seems that after reading thi entire thread your position on the subject hasn't changed, it is in fact only your opinion. An opinion which basically no one shares except for you might I add.

Others have produced facts and solidsupporting arguments. Not to mention quotes from Terry stating that retarding timing is a critical component to a competent tune.

You, on the other hand, haven't produced Jack shite except for trolling and being generally irritating. Thanks to you, roughly 7 pages of this thread are filled with your worthless garbage.

On topic, IMO riding knock sensors to drop timing instead of calibrating the timing table maxes to prevent timing dropouts does not constitute timing control.

[love2drive]

For the last six months I've been running my own small business so these bashing threads depress me. It's mostly because I've learned that NO MATTER WHAT you do, there will always be people who bash your business and are unhappy customers. Really, there are some people who are bent on bashing a small business and I don't understand their motivation. Who peed in their cereal?

You've established that Terry had to acquire tuning knowledge, that he was not born with it. That makes sense to me. Terry added competition to the market and as a result, the price of all tunes for the N54 are marginally lower. If you're a Cobb or Procede fan, you can thank Terry and the other competitors for saving you a good chunk of change on your purchase, for the rate that you receive new features, etc.

I live in an area with a high concentration of startup companies. These startups are constantly introducing new, lower cost products that are bashed by the incumbents and their fanboys. But in the end they lower cost and introduce competition that drives new features.

I hope there are plenty of new entrants in the N54 tuning market and that at some point this forum blocks the obvious sponsor-bashing that would otherwise drive them away.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of Shiv, Terry and Cobb because they are all competing and offering great solutions for the N54.