[Focus]

Originally Posted by Kid Eh

I couldn't have said it better myself. He really needs to get a life and focus his energy on things more important in life. It's soooo obvious this is purely personal. You don't get out much do you Clap?

While i too feel it's his personal vendetta, i dont think that's neccesary. People like me who dont have a tune yet and am in search for correct information truly appreciate a thread like this.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by lemanse92

Can I ask, which curve you are referring to?
and at least iat's look a lot better on this one lol

The timing curve, line it up with the rpm. In the first gear, i ramped up to 10 and knocked, in the next gear, it ramps up to 10 again. Why? Because the ecu will always ramp up tot he point of knock or its max preset ignition, whichever comes first.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Focus

Would you agree that at higher PSI, 15+, relying on the OEM knock sensor wouldnt be safE?

I do not have data supporting its unsafe or safe. I would have to do testing to find the range of the OEM knock sensor.

Unless Laloosh/Clap can provide data showing me severity of knock's at certain PSI there is no way to really tell what the OEM sensor's can accompany.

This is a question to ask Terry as he has done more R&D about what the Knock Sensors can Handle.

Originally Posted by Sniz

yes things can break, but why the hell would you tune with something that is OBVIOUSLY more damaging to your car than the alternatives???

explain please.

Post any kind of proof of how much "damage" is being caused by running Map 1 in the JB4 system. There really isnt any.


If you are not going to be running extreme high levels of boost 15+ PSI, there is no need to pay more money for something that works, Yes there are other options that you can choose, that seem to work just as well, or even better, these are obviously more expensive.

If you are going to run 15+, you will have to look at other options, and choose how you want to go from there, obviously if you are wanting to run high level's of boost, You have spent enough money on the car to have the appropriate modifications and you hopefully have spent your own R&D time to figure out whats going on so that you can not have catastrophic failures.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Focus

While i too feel it's his personal vendetta, i dont think that's neccesary. People like me who dont have a tune yet and am in search for correct information truly appreciate a thread like this.

bingo, its seriously hard for users on these boards to sift through the bullshit that the vendors and their hooligans constantly spew in an effort to boost sales.

[Kid Eh]

Originally Posted by Sniz

yes things can break, but why the hell would you tune with something that is OBVIOUSLY more damaging to your car than the alternatives???

explain please.

So in other words you don't ever eat french fries or pizza? You only eat good foods right? Why would you eat something that is OBVIOUSLY more damgaing to your HEALTH than the alternatives???

[stressdoc]

Everyone please chill on the personal crap.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Kid Eh

So in other words you don't ever eat french fries or pizza? You only eat good foods right? Why would you eat something that is OBVIOUSLY more damgaing to your HEALTH than the alternatives???

when I can help it, yes. if i'm really really hungry then i'll eat crap when good organic food isnt available.


what you just asked is like saying

"so you would choose a lifestyle that makes you healthier and live longer over eating junk food all the time?"

of course I would! Why wouldnt you?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Kid Eh

So in other words you don't ever eat french fries or pizza? You only eat good foods right? Why would you eat something that is OBVIOUSLY more damgaing to your HEALTH than the alternatives???

Because it would be like eating mcdonalds every day for your whole life.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by themyst

Because it would be like eating mcdonalds every day for your whole life.

lol mcdonalds or subway, you eat mcdonalds every single days. How dangerous is that? can a doctor show you data how many cheeseburgers will make you croke? No he cant. He will simply tell you to stop eaiting mcdonalds cause its not good for you. Some can eat it for 50 years and be fine, other eat once a week and die at 25.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by themyst

Because it would be like eating mcdonalds every day for your whole life.

Originally Posted by Clap135

lol mcdonalds or subway, you eat mcdonalds every single days. How dangerous is that? can a doctor show you data how many cheeseburgers will make you croke? No he cant. He will simply tell you to stop eaiting mcdonalds cause its not good for you. Some can eat it for 50 years and be fine, other eat once a week and die at 25.

yay 2 people who arent blind to the world...and tuning.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Sniz

yay 2 people who arent blind to the world...and tuning.

Originally Posted by Clap135

lol mcdonalds or subway, you eat mcdonalds every single days. How dangerous is that? can a doctor show you data how many cheeseburgers will make you croke? No he cant. He will simply tell you to stop eaiting mcdonalds cause its not good for you. Some can eat it for 50 years and be fine, other eat once a week and die at 25.

The Doctor can show you the affect's of eating those cheeseburgers with your cholesterol levels and blood pressure, which you can not do with these tunes.

Cholesterol being "knock" and blood pressure being "knock severity"

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

The Doctor can show you the affect's of eating those cheeseburgers with your cholesterol levels and blood pressure, which you can not do with these tunes.

Cholesterol being "knock" and blood pressure being "knock severity"

I can show you the effects of knock.

open your engine.


=======================

my s52 w 90k miles on it. 25k of which it was running over 400whp (stock bottom end that used to make 240bhp). This is with a great proper ECU tune.

how do these pistons look?




do you think a JB engine running extra levels of knock the whole time will look the same?

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Sniz

I can show you the effects of knock.

open your engine.

And as it seems on page one a stock car "knocks", so you would be showing me that the BMW N54 OEM sensors are horrible and that BMW is not able to handle stock amounts of boost and we should all use a different engine?

And at what level is "knock" become damaging? As we all agree there is different amounts and severity of knock, correct?

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

And as it seems on page one a stock car "knocks", so you would be showing me that the BMW N54 OEM sensors are horrible and that BMW is not able to handle stock amounts of boost and we should all use a different engine?

And at what level is "knock" become damaging? As we all agree there is different amounts and severity of knock, correct?

all knock is damaging, to what severity is hard to pinpoint.

[Forcefed3]

I am doing logs with JB4 this afternoon. I already have a few.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Sniz

all knock is damaging, to what severity is hard to pinpoint.

Until you can show data stating that states the severity of "knock".

at 8.5PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 10PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 12.5PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 13.5PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 15PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at --PSI the OEM knock sensors will go out of there range and fail resulting in complete engine failure.


Until you can show me that the OEM sensor's can not handle added boost by lowering timing, resulting in no continual engine damage, then there is no real argument I feel.

Sniz I think you are a great member, don't feel like I am attacking you personally please.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Until you can show data stating that states the severity of "knock".

at 8.5PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 10PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 12.5PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 13.5PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at 15PSI the car knocks this hard and does X damage
at --PSI the OEM knock sensors will go out of there range and fail resulting in complete engine failure.


Until you can show me that the OEM sensor's can not handle added boost by lowering timing, resulting in no continual engine damage, then there is no real argument I feel.

Sniz I think you are a great member, don't feel like I am attacking you personally please.

i dont feel you are attacking me

you need to realize that engines dont run on the road in a conditions vacuum....in other words there are so many variables that I dont think you could ever find the exact answers to your chart above.


all I care about is.......knock is bad, get rid of it as much as possible. The JB tunes do the opposite.

end of story for me

[themyst]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

The Doctor can show you the affect's of eating those cheeseburgers with your cholesterol levels and blood pressure, which you can not do with these tunes.

Cholesterol being "knock" and blood pressure being "knock severity"

You could equate a compression test to a full body checkup.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

The Doctor can show you the affect's of eating those cheeseburgers with your cholesterol levels and blood pressure, which you can not do with these tunes.

Cholesterol being "knock" and blood pressure being "knock severity"

reading your posts results in a never ending :facepalm:

Hell even your analogies are terrible, such as this one.

The doctor CANNOT give you a specific number of "cheeseburgers" "alcoholic drinks", which you equate to knock events, to death. And no, a doctor cannot tell you based on your amount of cheesebruger intake what your cholesterol levels will be.

Ever seen someone die from liver cancer who doesnt drink? Ever seen a guy die from a heart attack who exercises and eats well? The answer to both of those should be yes.

That being said, there is no argument that eating badly, not exercsing, and drinking heavily are not good for you. Can a doctor specifically tell you how much is too much and exactly what is going to happen when? No he cannot.

What you are doing is akin to ignoring known advice in terms of engine tuning. It is common knowledge that knock events cause engine damage (this can be seen in many other platforms). If you choose to ignore this advice and see how far you can push the envelope go for it.

Others choose to do things "safer" based on analogs and logical information.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Sniz

i dont feel you are attacking me

you need to realize that engines dont run on the road in a conditions vacuum....in other words there are so many variables that I dont think you could ever find the exact answers to your chart above.


all I care about is.......knock is bad, get rid of it as much as possible. The JB tunes do the opposite.

end of story for me

Obviously you could not find a perfect chart, you could get pretty close if there was a way to measure "knock" severity.

As posted on the first page, the stock N54 engine puts out knock frequency's that the OEM sensors pick up on, and lower timing, so stating that and saying that because the JB also uses the same methods to control timing (for the time being), I think its inappropriate to say that it is "wrong" and having to go around this forum continuously posting about the same subject.

I say again, There are a million ways to do thing's. Some think one way is the only way, some say the other way works just as well.

Opinions are like , well you know that line.

Without data supporting your cause of "It does not work correctly because it does not do X" its just opinion, there has been failures with all types of engines doing all types of things.

However you take this. Do your own research, CALL THE MANUFACTURE and talk to them, I know that they will all talk to you and give you more information then you know what to do with.

Figure out what YOU are trying to do with your car and be happy.

[SennaZ]

Alot of hypothetical arguments with no real proof from either side

IMO, any tune that doesn't monitor each cylinder individually and set the MBT for it is a a piece of crap.

Hell, last I heard Toyota was using cylinder pressure based ECU's and with the advent of relatively cheap plug pressure sensors I'm surprised that any really good tuner hasn't stepped up to the plate.

[Forcefed3]

I need to get some more logs and make sure my engine isn't knocking that bad. Never had a problem with JB, but threads like this definitely don't make me more confident.