Dealer Calls and Says "Did you modify the cars Engine Control Unit?"..re:fuel Pump

Swoop · 04-04-2007, 09:26 PM

I didn't read through every page so I don't know if this was brought up or not, but Service Managers and advisors will look at forums to and do a little research in cases like this. CEA, my advise to you would be to post under this under someone elses or a new name so it can't be tracked to you. Maybe nothing will come of this, but just a heads up for others with mods that may potentially cost the dealership some $$$. Hope all works out.

BoostedBMW · 04-04-2007, 10:06 PM

I've only read two pages in this thread, but from that I have drawn a few conclusions. First off, the dealership that you go to really blows, go somewhere else. Denying you service because of tires or an exhaust that causes them to expect other mods is just total BS.

Second off, whoever is busting this guys chops about having "procede" in his sig needs to really get a life since it is a well known fact that totally bone stock cars have had the same issue. Its not like he blew out his diff from launching at 6k rpm and now he is looking for warantee work. Give the guy a break... so many damn haters on here, maybe they should go work for Irvine BMW.

CEA3, best of luck with getting this all resolved.

carl_lazlo · 04-04-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkraven

THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE*

*not meant for performance driving.

HAHAHAHA!!!

That's the best.

Can I use that in a poster?

stressdoc · 04-05-2007, 12:42 AM

Q: Is this the only case of a broken fuel pump?
BMW NA: Ahh, no sir.
Q: How many other fuel pumps have broken?
BMW NA: A lot. We can not build replacements fast enough.
Q: Are the broken pumps from cars that have been altered (a la PROcede)?
BMW NA: A few might be, but most are not.
Q: So this is a part with a clear history of failure on unmodified cars?
BMW NA: Yes sir.
Q: Is there a clear link between the modification and the failure? Please bring your expert witness to the stand.
BMW NA: No expert witness would testify to this effect.
Q: Let's all go home and enjoy our BMWs.

NewBMW · 04-05-2007, 01:35 PM

CEA - I'm sorry this happened - but it appears simply going to another dealer will solve the problem.

Question: Who foots the bill for the warranty work? Does BMW NA pay for it or the dealership is out of pocket?

If BMW NA pays for it, what does Irvine BMW have to lose?

If the dealership pays for it, then I understand their police work (not that I agree with it).

BoostedBMW · 04-05-2007, 01:47 PM

^ I am interested in the answer to your questions also since I don't work at a car dealership, but from my understanding I have always thought that BMW NA will pay for the repairs, and the dealership will be paid for their labor, but at a lower hourly rate then what they would charge Joe Blow off the street. Can someone correct this if I am wrong?

ATG · 04-05-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Q:
Q: Is there a clear link between the modification and the failure? Please bring your expert witness to the stand.

A: No expert witness will testify.

Mr. Ganeil [rising]: The defendant requests that the case be dismissed on the grounds of REBUTTABLE PRESUMPTION!

Judge: Oh, not that shit again!

ganeil · 04-05-2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATG

A: No expert witness will testify.

Mr. Ganeil [rising]: The defendant requests that the case be dismissed on the grounds of REBUTTABLE PRESUMPTION!

Judge: Oh, not that shit again!

Do yourself a favor, if you ever get sued, hire a good lawyer.

Your ignorance of the law is breathtaking.

ATG · 04-05-2007, 02:38 PM

Are you suggesting yourself as a candidate? Thank you sir, but I cannot afford to hire a lawyer who didn't take the time to learn the concepts of causation and relevance (here, in the context of a hypothetical warranty claim). This is, of course, only a presumption that you are welcome to rebut.

carl_lazlo · 04-05-2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganeil

Do yourself a favor, if you ever get sued, hire a good lawyer.

Your ignorance of the law is breathtaking.

Hahahaha!

One of the lawyers here at my company read through this thread with me and is still laughing.

ATG · 04-05-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carl_lazlo

Hahahaha!

One of the lawyers here at my company read through this thread with me and is still laughing.

More details please!!!

What did he/she say?

choatie88 · 04-05-2007, 02:47 PM

I've found that by and large, any legal argument or legal advice on the Intarweb is total

That includes the armchair wishful-thinking interpretations of how aftermarket mods affect dealear warranties spouted by people on this forum...

ganeil · 04-05-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATG

Are you suggesting yourself as a candidate? Thank you sir, but I cannot afford to hire a lawyer who didn't take the time to learn the concepts of causation and relevance (here, in the context of a hypothetical warranty claim). This is, of course, only a presumption that you are welcome to rebut.

Not at all. I do not practice anymore and I preferred my clients have a clue as to what they were talking about. Ignorant clients often spoke when they should have stayed quiet and that made for difficult depositions.

FYI, the standard in contract law is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. BMW would not have to PROVE causation, they would merely have to show a reasonable belief that the modification contributed to the failure.

ATG · 04-05-2007, 03:00 PM

Did I mention "beyond the reasonable doubt" standard? "Reasonable belief" sounds very attractive for BMW, but I highly doubt that it's the case, unless the language of the warranty expressly says so. Even if that is the standard, the belief must be "reasonable," i.e., based on objective criteria and scientific explanation rather than a speculative urban myth that mods cause fuel pumps to go dead.

I think you did your liability insurance carrier a favor when you stopped practicing...

ganeil · 04-05-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATG

I think ...

That is highly doubtful.

y2b3k · 04-05-2007, 03:13 PM

I do not believe that BMW would have a winning case at all.

Instead, if BMW tries to push this problem on "tunner", it may actually backfire and could even result in a class action lawsuit against the company, since it is denying warranty on "loose" cricumstances.

Specifically, "reasonable" proof, doesn't mean that they can simply say a modification of the rims had an effect on the fuel pump. Any auto technician would know this, and would explain it to the judge. Furthermore, what would constitute as "reasonable" evidence? What if I changed my oil filter to an aftermarket brand? If that voids my warranty, then it's just plain stupidity.

Last but not least, there is already proof that even non-modified cars are experiencing this fuel pump issue. Therefore, in a way, it sets a precedent against BMW, and I'm sure that BMW is smart enough to admit when they screwed up. This is their 2nd turbo production car, so there was bound to be a few problems, just like when the E46 M3 was first produced (e.g. rods etc..)

Travis

lawdude · 04-05-2007, 04:32 PM

Three years of law school can be summed up as follows:

If the law is on your side, argue the law.

If the facts are on your side, argue the facts.

If neither is on your side, argue like hell.

ATG · 04-05-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawdude

If neither is on your side, argue like hell.

And then settle....

LOLrance · 04-05-2007, 05:02 PM

Dam, this thread is starting to turn into my business law class.

lawdude · 04-05-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATG

And then settle....

So settle already. Listening to a lawyer dust-up isn't very entertaining.

ATG · 04-05-2007, 05:12 PM

I'm officially shutting up in this thread.

Doccommando · 04-05-2007, 05:20 PM

Warranties aren't simple contracts, there are numerous federal (and state) statutes that apply to what warranties can and cannot do.

I'm sure BMW's lawyers went over the warranty.

I am also sure that dealers often operate in violation of the law because they can get away with it and also don't understand all of the statutes and case law dealing with warranties.

The reasonable belief argument isn't completely off the wall, but there are several ways CEA could respond if he were actually litigating.

Either way, CEA could easily show that the part was defective regardless of mods and that the mod did not cause the part to fail. It's really that simple and would not involve any argument about what he did with the Procede.

04-04-2007, 09:26 PM	#155
Swoop Resident Noob 138 Rep 1,911 Posts Drives: You Crazy w/ My Rear Fogs Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Manhattan Beach, California iTrader: (6) Garage List 2007 335i [0.00] 2004 Acura TSX [0.00]	I didn't read through every page so I don't know if this was brought up or not, but Service Managers and advisors will look at forums to and do a little research in cases like this. CEA, my advise to you would be to post under this under someone elses or a new name so it can't be tracked to you. Maybe nothing will come of this, but just a heads up for others with mods that may potentially cost the dealership some $$$. Hope all works out. __________________ A/W 335i e90 l Sirius l M6 Wheels l M5 Bumper l Eibachs l 20% Tint l CPE Exhaust & Standback l BLK Matte Trim l Xenon Interiors l Lux 4.0 l 8000k D1S l MTEC H7/H11s l Invisibulbs l BLK Matte Grill l Blacklines l Alum Pedals l Splt Armrest l Rear Fogs l RBT l K&N
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04-04-2007, 10:06 PM	#156
BoostedBMW Moderator 134 Rep 6,775 Posts Drives: TiAg E92 335 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Raleigh, NC iTrader: (14) Garage List 2003 S2000 [0.00]	I've only read two pages in this thread, but from that I have drawn a few conclusions. First off, the dealership that you go to really blows, go somewhere else. Denying you service because of tires or an exhaust that causes them to expect other mods is just total BS. Second off, whoever is busting this guys chops about having "procede" in his sig needs to really get a life since it is a well known fact that totally bone stock cars have had the same issue. Its not like he blew out his diff from launching at 6k rpm and now he is looking for warantee work. Give the guy a break... so many damn haters on here, maybe they should go work for Irvine BMW. CEA3, best of luck with getting this all resolved. __________________ -Michael. Berlina Black S2000 CR is now in the garage l 19" Rial Daytona Race l KW V2 l Eisenhaus Race Exhaust l
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04-05-2007, 12:42 AM	#158
stressdoc Moderator 659 Rep 10,865 Posts Drives: BMW i8; Toy 4runner TRD pro Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Waco TX iTrader: (0)	Q: Is this the only case of a broken fuel pump? BMW NA: Ahh, no sir. Q: How many other fuel pumps have broken? BMW NA: A lot. We can not build replacements fast enough. Q: Are the broken pumps from cars that have been altered (a la PROcede)? BMW NA: A few might be, but most are not. Q: So this is a part with a clear history of failure on unmodified cars? BMW NA: Yes sir. Q: Is there a clear link between the modification and the failure? Please bring your expert witness to the stand. BMW NA: No expert witness would testify to this effect. Q: Let's all go home and enjoy our BMWs. __________________ My recent ED photos: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1026808 my not-so-recent ED: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31829 Please join BMWCCA http://bmwcca.org/index.php?pageid=c...&ref_by=300279
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04-05-2007, 01:35 PM	#159
NewBMW Enlisted Member 2 Rep 45 Posts Drives: 335 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Asia iTrader: (0)	CEA - I'm sorry this happened - but it appears simply going to another dealer will solve the problem. Question: Who foots the bill for the warranty work? Does BMW NA pay for it or the dealership is out of pocket? If BMW NA pays for it, what does Irvine BMW have to lose? If the dealership pays for it, then I understand their police work (not that I agree with it).
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04-05-2007, 01:47 PM	#160
BoostedBMW Moderator 134 Rep 6,775 Posts Drives: TiAg E92 335 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Raleigh, NC iTrader: (14) Garage List 2003 S2000 [0.00]	^ I am interested in the answer to your questions also since I don't work at a car dealership, but from my understanding I have always thought that BMW NA will pay for the repairs, and the dealership will be paid for their labor, but at a lower hourly rate then what they would charge Joe Blow off the street. Can someone correct this if I am wrong? __________________ -Michael. Berlina Black S2000 CR is now in the garage l 19" Rial Daytona Race l KW V2 l Eisenhaus Race Exhaust l
	Appreciate 0 Quote

04-05-2007, 02:38 PM	#163
ATG Major 75 Rep 1,058 Posts Drives: f30 328 xdrive, e90 335i gone Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Eastside iTrader: (0) Garage List 2013 BMW 328i xdrive [0.00] 2007 e90 335i [0.00]	Are you suggesting yourself as a candidate? Thank you sir, but I cannot afford to hire a lawyer who didn't take the time to learn the concepts of causation and relevance (here, in the context of a hypothetical warranty claim). This is, of course, only a presumption that you are welcome to rebut.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

04-05-2007, 02:47 PM	#166
choatie88 Second Lieutenant 9 Rep 205 Posts Drives: iX, Volvo XC90, McLaren 12C Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Greenwich, CT iTrader: (0)	I've found that by and large, any legal argument or legal advice on the Intarweb is total That includes the armchair wishful-thinking interpretations of how aftermarket mods affect dealear warranties spouted by people on this forum... __________________ 335i E93 Monaco/Beige ZPP ZSP ZCW 322 507 6FL ZPD
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04-05-2007, 03:00 PM	#168
ATG Major 75 Rep 1,058 Posts Drives: f30 328 xdrive, e90 335i gone Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Eastside iTrader: (0) Garage List 2013 BMW 328i xdrive [0.00] 2007 e90 335i [0.00]	Did I mention "beyond the reasonable doubt" standard? "Reasonable belief" sounds very attractive for BMW, but I highly doubt that it's the case, unless the language of the warranty expressly says so. Even if that is the standard, the belief must be "reasonable," i.e., based on objective criteria and scientific explanation rather than a speculative urban myth that mods cause fuel pumps to go dead. I think you did your liability insurance carrier a favor when you stopped practicing...
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04-05-2007, 03:13 PM	#170
y2b3k Private 3 Rep 68 Posts Drives: E92 328i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Vancouver iTrader: (0)	I do not believe that BMW would have a winning case at all. Instead, if BMW tries to push this problem on "tunner", it may actually backfire and could even result in a class action lawsuit against the company, since it is denying warranty on "loose" cricumstances. Specifically, "reasonable" proof, doesn't mean that they can simply say a modification of the rims had an effect on the fuel pump. Any auto technician would know this, and would explain it to the judge. Furthermore, what would constitute as "reasonable" evidence? What if I changed my oil filter to an aftermarket brand? If that voids my warranty, then it's just plain stupidity. Last but not least, there is already proof that even non-modified cars are experiencing this fuel pump issue. Therefore, in a way, it sets a precedent against BMW, and I'm sure that BMW is smart enough to admit when they screwed up. This is their 2nd turbo production car, so there was bound to be a few problems, just like when the E46 M3 was first produced (e.g. rods etc..) Travis Last edited by y2b3k; 04-05-2007 at 03:47 PM..
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04-05-2007, 04:32 PM	#171
lawdude Colonel 95 Rep 2,339 Posts Drives: 335i ZPP ZSP TiAg MT Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Georgia iTrader: (1)	Three years of law school can be summed up as follows: If the law is on your side, argue the law. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If neither is on your side, argue like hell.
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04-05-2007, 05:02 PM	#173
LOLrance The Law. 311 Rep 14,282 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: SF / OC iTrader: (17)	Dam, this thread is starting to turn into my business law class. __________________
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04-05-2007, 05:12 PM	#175
ATG Major 75 Rep 1,058 Posts Drives: f30 328 xdrive, e90 335i gone Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Eastside iTrader: (0) Garage List 2013 BMW 328i xdrive [0.00] 2007 e90 335i [0.00]	I'm officially shutting up in this thread.
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04-05-2007, 05:20 PM	#176
Doccommando Enlisted Member 0 Rep 46 Posts Drives: Evo IX Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Palo Alto, CA iTrader: (0)	Warranties aren't simple contracts, there are numerous federal (and state) statutes that apply to what warranties can and cannot do. I'm sure BMW's lawyers went over the warranty. I am also sure that dealers often operate in violation of the law because they can get away with it and also don't understand all of the statutes and case law dealing with warranties. The reasonable belief argument isn't completely off the wall, but there are several ways CEA could respond if he were actually litigating. Either way, CEA could easily show that the part was defective regardless of mods and that the mod did not cause the part to fail. It's really that simple and would not involve any argument about what he did with the Procede.
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