[toy_soldier]

TDIwyse,

I've been following this with great interest and really appreciate you 'taking one for the team'.
I've read Stan's post with regard to boost spike with a hollowed out DPF vs. their downpipe and would like to know what is your thought on this? Is it pure marketing by Ecotune to sell their flash tune or there is a boost spike that will eventually damage the turbo? You went and hollowed out the DPF and using their flash tune.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by toy_soldier

TDIwyse,

I've been following this with great interest and really appreciate you 'taking one for the team'.
I've read Stan's post with regard to boost spike with a hollowed out DPF vs. their downpipe and would like to know what is your thought on this? Is it pure marketing by Ecotune to sell their flash tune or there is a boost spike that will eventually damage the turbo? You went and hollowed out the DPF and using their flash tune.

I think this a complicated issue that gets even more complicated because of all the different possible configurations. For example, on the vehicle in question the whole DPF canister wasn't hallowed out, just the DPF portion, leaving the DOC portion in place. This would cause a different operational characteristic than a completely hallowed out canister. Some people have hallowed out the whole thing and then welded a pipe inside. This would give a different characteristic than the previous two options, so we're already at 3 possible configs already. Then our US 335d's have the NOx "mixer" and catalyst as well (which the euro versions didn't have) which affects flow characterisitcs. You can quickly see how much variability is possible in different ways things could be configured...

Think from talking with him and reading lots of his online posts is that due to how many different configurations are possible, he'd prefer to have a "known" backpressure flow characteristic to match the software with...

I took a risk and some baby steps that would at least get some progress going on this front. With the specific exhaust config I have now, using the specific profile in his remap, I can monitor "requested" and "actual" boost levels with the Bavarian Technic tool and verify that they align very well and I do not see any "spiking" or "over shooting" of the "actual" boost. I have no data to compare any other configuration than this specific configuration. It's quite likely that using his downpipe and removing the NOx catalysts would produce even better power levels. It would most certainly weigh less. And you wouldn't have to deal with that fricking motor mount obstruction...

[TDIwyse]

This is an example of some BT measured data on the boost response. This was a 2nd/3rd gear pull at pretty aggressive fueling, but shifting before max rpm's. Was testing and measuring and evaluating things before progressing to full fueling/rpm's to see how things were playing together. Time steps between data parameters is 0.33 secs.

[toy_soldier]

Thanks for the feedback TDIWyse, looks like the demanded and actual boost pressure tracks each other pretty well, so no need for concern with boost spike.

I wonder if ecotune will sell us just the file and we flash it ourself using a BDM programmer so no need to ship it oversea. Its the downtime that I can't afford since its my daily driver.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by toy_soldier

Thanks for the feedback TDIWyse, looks like the demanded and actual boost pressure tracks each other pretty well, so no need for concern with boost spike.

I wonder if ecotune will sell us just the file and we flash it ourself using a BDM programmer so no need to ship it oversea. Its the downtime that I can't afford since its my daily driver.

Mark at Redline is the US rep and the one you would ship the DDE to. No need for overseas shipping.

[TDIwyse]

Planning to send the DDE back to Redline to get remapped to remove the specific codes associated with the blanking plate. That should hopefully make this approach a viable path for improved long term reliability and code free operation for the north american market. Not saying its the best path, or only path, but perhaps A path...

Also, Hooper has been running a blocking plate on his unmapped (I think you're unmapped) d and getting similar code behavior and appears to have verified similar results as I'm seeing. Hopefully he can post some info on this. His approach for the blanking plate was a little different than what I did and is likely easier to duplicate/install.

[Hoooper]

Yeah I am unmapped (JBD only). Same codes. I can update on the blanking plate install later, I will check the specific sizes for what I used since thats realistically the important part.

[TDIwyse]

Got the DDE back from Redline after Stan tweaked things a bit. We might have a winner.

After work, got the DDE re-installed and the rest of the stuff put back on. Just got back from an initial test where I did 10 mins of driving then parked and shut down and checked codes. None pending or set. Started back up and drove home and shut down and re-checked. No codes pending or set. So far so good.

[dixy2k]

TDIwyse

I understand you fabricated a blanking plate to cover (partially) the EGR.
Wouldn't this get clogged up too?

[Puerto Rican 335d]

TDi anxiously awaiting the downpipe I cant wait any longer jajajaj to have in my hands!!!

[335dFan]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Got the DDE back from Redline after Stan tweaked things a bit. We might have a winner.

After work, got the DDE re-installed and the rest of the stuff put back on. Just got back from an initial test where I did 10 mins of driving then parked and shut down and checked codes. None pending or set. Started back up and drove home and shut down and re-checked. No codes pending or set. So far so good.

After viewing a short BMW video clip posted by somebody in either this or the bimmerfest forum, I wondered whether your next "point of failure" (or less ominously, the thing to watch for) will be the DOC suffering premature failure?

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by dixy2k

TDIwyse

I understand you fabricated a blanking plate to cover (partially) the EGR.
Wouldn't this get clogged up too?

It's completely blocked off, not partially. So no exhaust gas is going into the intake.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

After viewing a short BMW video clip posted by somebody in either this or the bimmerfest forum, I wondered whether your next "point of failure" (or less ominously, the thing to watch for) will be the DOC suffering premature failure?

All things eventually fail, so I agree this could happen. Although I'm not sure why it would be accelerated? If you have some insight or links to share I'd enjoy reading about it.

The DOC is something that I would like to keep in place because of the good it does. I'm not a believer that the DPF is a good compromise.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...21850210000960


There was a very large increase of volatile particles between 5 and 10 nm, and these volatile particles were generated during all of the observed regeneration events. It appears that the particle number instruments that use the PMP methodology do not capture the PM mass increase during DPF regeneration; however, for one regeneration event there was an apparent large increase in solid particles below the PMP size limit. The PM mass increase associated with regeneration appears to be due to semi-volatile particles collected on filters. During the testing, the regeneration events exhibited considerable variations in the time for regeneration as well as the amount of PM emissions. From this investigation, several questions have been posed concerning the emission of very small (<20 nm) volatile and solid particles during DPF regeneration that need further investigation.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...er09_dwyer.pdf

(see slide 4 in particular showing the DPF vs no DPF particulate curve and how the DPF moves radically more particulates into the nano particle range)

Since the smaller particles are more easily absorbed into organisms and, according to many studies, have much more concerning (to me anyway) health implications, is it an obvious health advantage to add the complexity, cost, maintenance, increased fuel consumption, etc. to use this technology on highly efficient diesel vehicles?

Especially considering how much more particulate emissions sources there are ...


http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/t...RPE-65-20e.pdf

After thorough research of the air at highway with moderate traffic, the researchers found between 3,800 and 6,900 tyre particles per cubic meter of air while more the 58% of them are under 10 microns in size and therefore are able to penetrate into human lungs causing bronchial asthma, allergic reactions, as a result of skin and mucosa contact–rhinitis,conjunctivitis and urticaria.
According to the research carried out in Moscow [2] the core pollutant of the city air (up to 60% of hazardous matter) is the rubber of
automobile tyre used up in a small dust.
As shown in the above analysis, tyre dust emissions due to tyre protector wear (in g/km) significantly (by 6 - 7 times) exceeds emissions of particulate matters with exhaust gases of passenger car engines.


http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsa...culates_d8.pdf

The PM generated by road transport activity can be categorised according to its mode of formation. It is
generally assumed that fuel combustion is the primary mechanism by which particles are formed, and a
considerable body of research on vehicle exhaust particulate emissions has been compiled. However, there are
a number of other processes, involving mechanical abrasion and corrosion, which can also result in PM being
released directly to the atmosphere. These processes include:
(i) Tyre wear
(ii) Brake wear
(iii) Clutch wear
(iv) Road surface wear
(v) Corrosion of chassis, bodywork, and other vehicle components
(vi) Corrosion of street furniture, signs, crash barriers and fencing

And there's some studies showing more health impact due to having the DPF on than with it off.

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/con...ft162.abstract

Rather than reducing toxicity, +DPF exhaust resulted in heightened injury and inflammation, consistent with the 4-fold increase in NO2 concentration. The ratio of bigET-1 to ET-1 was similarly elevated after −DPF and +DPF exhaust exposures. Endothelial dysfunction, thus, appeared related to particle number deposited, rather than particle mass or NO2 concentration. The potential benefits of particulate matter reduction using a catalyzed DPF may be confounded by increase in NO2 emission and release of reactive ultrafine particles.

[TDIwyse]

Logged data on the drive to work this morning. Just a few degrees above 0F. No codes. Interestingly, the EGR Commanded % is now showing essentially 0% during operation. Will keep monitoring this behavior, as it's different than the behavior from Ecotune's first remap...

[335dFan]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

All things eventually fail, so I agree this could happen. Although I'm not sure why it would be accelerated? If you have some insight or links to share I'd enjoy reading about it.

My reason for asking is that, as I understand it, the DPF is upstream from the DOC, and with the DPF no longer filtering anything, what previously was filtered by the DPF is flowing straight into the DOC. Is this correct? Or do I have the sequence wrong? Are you still pumping DEF into the exhaust stream post-DPF, or is that not how it works?

[Mark M]

TDI, very interesting data on the EGR activity from the tweeked Ecotune.

If I am understanding correctly, Stan has now successfully coded out the EGR, meaning it no longer actuates and also will not throw a code? That said, with the tune you would not need to then physically block off the valve? Unless you prefer that piece of mind.

Is that accurate? Thanks.

Sidenote....I began to scan data last night with my BavTech. Just idling in the garage the car was calling for 40% EGR. I was too lazy to go for a drive with the laptop hooked up, maybe this weekend I'll track it in motion.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

All things eventually fail, so I agree this could happen. Although I'm not sure why it would be accelerated? If you have some insight or links to share I'd enjoy reading about it.

The DOC is something that I would like to keep in place because of the good it does. I'm not a believer that the DPF is a good compromise.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...21850210000960

There was a very large increase of volatile particles between 5 and 10 nm, and these volatile particles were generated during all of the observed regeneration events. It appears that the particle number instruments that use the PMP methodology do not capture the PM mass increase during DPF regeneration; however, for one regeneration event there was an apparent large increase in solid particles below the PMP size limit. The PM mass increase associated with regeneration appears to be due to semi-volatile particles collected on filters. During the testing, the regeneration events exhibited considerable variations in the time for regeneration as well as the amount of PM emissions. From this investigation, several questions have been posed concerning the emission of very small (<20 nm) volatile and solid particles during DPF regeneration that need further investigation.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...er09_dwyer.pdf
(see slide 4 in particular showing the DPF vs no DPF particulate curve and how the DPF moves radically more particulates into the nano particle range)

Since the smaller particles are more easily absorbed into organisms and, according to many studies, have much more concerning (to me anyway) health implications, is it an obvious health advantage to add the complexity, cost, maintenance, increased fuel consumption, etc. to use this technology on highly efficient diesel vehicles?

Especially considering how much more particulate emissions sources there are ...

http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/t...RPE-65-20e.pdf

After thorough research of the air at highway with moderate traffic, the researchers found between 3,800 and 6,900 tyre particles per cubic meter of air while more the 58% of them are under 10 microns in size and therefore are able to penetrate into human lungs causing bronchial asthma, allergic reactions, as a result of skin and mucosa contact–rhinitis,conjunctivitis and urticaria.
According to the research carried out in Moscow [2] the core pollutant of the city air (up to 60% of hazardous matter) is the rubber of
automobile tyre used up in a small dust.
As shown in the above analysis, tyre dust emissions due to tyre protector wear (in g/km) significantly (by 6 - 7 times) exceeds emissions of particulate matters with exhaust gases of passenger car engines.

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsa...culates_d8.pdf

The PM generated by road transport activity can be categorised according to its mode of formation. It is
generally assumed that fuel combustion is the primary mechanism by which particles are formed, and a
considerable body of research on vehicle exhaust particulate emissions has been compiled. However, there are
a number of other processes, involving mechanical abrasion and corrosion, which can also result in PM being
released directly to the atmosphere. These processes include:
(i) Tyre wear
(ii) Brake wear
(iii) Clutch wear
(iv) Road surface wear
(v) Corrosion of chassis, bodywork, and other vehicle components
(vi) Corrosion of street furniture, signs, crash barriers and fencing

And there's some studies showing more health impact due to having the DPF on than with it off.


http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/con...ft162.abstract



Rather than reducing toxicity, +DPF exhaust resulted in heightened injury and inflammation, consistent with the 4-fold increase in NO2 concentration. The ratio of bigET-1 to ET-1 was similarly elevated after −DPF and +DPF exhaust exposures. Endothelial dysfunction, thus, appeared related to particle number deposited, rather than particle mass or NO2 concentration. The potential benefits of particulate matter reduction using a catalyzed DPF may be confounded by increase in NO2 emission and release of reactive ultrafine particles.

EPA apparently thinks 10,000 nm or smaller is the worry. If DPF reduces net PM under this threshold when compared to no-DPF we should be happy correct?

[dixy2k]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

It's completely blocked off, not partially. So no exhaust gas is going into the intake.

Would the EGR cooler be safe now, as opposed to the past when the thermal stress occurred?

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

My reason for asking is that, as I understand it, the DPF is upstream from the DOC, and with the DPF no longer filtering anything, what previously was filtered by the DPF is flowing straight into the DOC. Is this correct? Or do I have the sequence wrong? Are you still pumping DEF into the exhaust stream post-DPF, or is that not how it works?

Hmmm .... the DOC is actually first in line and before the DPF. So removing the DPF wouldn't, at least as far as I can tell, impact the DOC life. And with the EGR off and running full oxygen there should be less soot produced, so the DOC should actually be dealing with less soot loading. Guess I'm not sure yet why this would be bad for the DOC?

Have not verified the DEF aspect of the tune yet. Supposedly its off.

[335dFan]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Hmmm .... the DOC is actually first in line and before the DPF. So removing the DPF wouldn't, at least as far as I can tell, impact the DOC life. And with the EGR off and running full oxygen there should be less soot produced, so the DOC should actually be dealing with less soot loading. Guess I'm not sure yet why this would be bad for the DOC?

Have not verified the DEF aspect of the tune yet. Supposedly its off.

I guess I must have misread this video from another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Pm3I7UuhEqA

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Mark M

TDI, very interesting data on the EGR activity from the tweeked Ecotune.

If I am understanding correctly, Stan has now successfully coded out the EGR, meaning it no longer actuates and also will not throw a code? That said, with the tune you would not need to then physically block off the valve? Unless you prefer that piece of mind.

Is that accurate? Thanks.

Sidenote....I began to scan data last night with my BavTech. Just idling in the garage the car was calling for 40% EGR. I was too lazy to go for a drive with the laptop hooked up, maybe this weekend I'll track it in motion.

I'm not sure on this yet. Haven't heard back from Stan on the EGR question. I'm going to monitor it for awhile and see what happens...

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

I guess I must have misread this video from another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Pm3I7UuhEqA

I cut the canister open and have posted pics of it. DOC is definitely first in our 335d.