[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Simple, and I've said it before, but you just can't accept it:
Your opinion does not compare to that of work published in respected, publicly reviewed places. Clan, if you have written a study or article or something on the subject, pls let us read it! I don't even see you quoting accurate figures, though.

Murf

Murf, you can’t compare first hand, real life experiences with your so called respected publications. They are all skewed. I spent 10 years with an NYPD Sgt and both my brother in-laws are retired NYPD. I’ve lived it. The stress of the job, the split moment decisions, the worrying if they will come home. Worrying about their mental health because of what they see everyday and getting them to open up so they don’t hold it in. The scrutiny they face from all sides, even the brass. I don’t love unions but they serve a purpose here.

NY doing away with qualified immunity will give us even less police support. It’s sad. Who will want to be a cop?

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Murf, you can’t compare first hand, real life experiences with your so called respected publications. They are all skewed. I spent 10 years with an NYPD Sgt and both my brother in-laws are retired NYPD. I’ve lived it. The stress of the job, the split moment decisions, the worrying if they will come home. Worrying about their mental health because of what they see everyday and getting them to open up so they don’t hold it in. The scrutiny they face from all sides, even the brass. I don’t love unions but they serve a purpose here.

Your first line discounts all writing, throughout history! Learning to report & write is a skill taught in college & further. Writing is recorded history.
How many police, ex-cop, pols, etc were quoted in the articles? I wish Clan had his arguments & figures together better, but he don't.
Any article worth its mettle is multi-sourced. My motto: If it isn't in the NYT yet, it isn't true (but I'm flexible). Saves me lots of grief.
Other than that, we have no disagreement that I see.
Last time this gratitude stuff was posted, I said that's how I now feel when I see someone in medical scrubs walk by. That is not a disagreement!
But I didn't get a single "that's right Murf!'" from any of the fanboys.

Murf

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Murf, you can’t compare first hand, real life experiences with your so called respected publications. They are all skewed. I spent 10 years with an NYPD Sgt and both my brother in-laws are retired NYPD. I’ve lived it. The stress of the job, the split moment decisions, the worrying if they will come home. Worrying about their mental health because of what they see everyday and getting them to open up so they don’t hold it in. The scrutiny they face from all sides, even the brass. I don’t love unions but they serve a purpose here.

NY doing away with qualified immunity will give us even less police support. It’s sad. Who will want to be a cop?

You're wasting your time with him.

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You're wasting your time with him.

I wish there was a way for the anti police crowd to live a day in the life. Just one day should do it.

[upstatedoc]

Wtf

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Murf, you can’t compare first hand, real life experiences with your so called respected publications. They are all skewed....
NY doing away with qualified immunity will give us even less police support. It’s sad. Who will want to be a cop?

I haven't read up on QI too much, but:
"For example, in 1961, there's this case called Monroe v. Pape, where this Black family, the Monroes, sue Chicago police officers. These police officers, in the wee hours of the morning, broke into these people's house, rounded them up, made them stand completely naked in the living room, searched every room. They were going through all their private stuff, ruining their furniture, ripping covers off of mattresses and going through their drawers. And then they arrest James Monroe, who was the father, detain him and question him for hours.
"The family sues, and the Supreme Court said that yes, they get to sue the officers for what happened to them, because their rights very well may have been violated. The whole point of the existing law is that when an official abuses their position, there is some remedy outside of the criminal court to hold that official accountable."

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/87621...-immune-system

I've been harping on the abuse of union power by a quasi-military force, & general un-accountability to the public they serve.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

I wish there was a way for the anti police crowd to live a day in the life. Just one day should do it.

That would be a dream come true. That, or a day of us being able to say, "Handle your own problems. Don't call us.....for anything!"

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

I haven't read up on QI too much, but:
"For example, in 1961, there's this case called Monroe v. Pape, where this Black family, the Monroes, sue Chicago police officers. These police officers, in the wee hours of the morning, broke into these people's house, rounded them up, made them stand completely naked in the living room, searched every room. They were going through all their private stuff, ruining their furniture, ripping covers off of mattresses and going through their drawers. And then they arrest James Monroe, who was the father, detain him and question him for hours.
"The family sues, and the Supreme Court said that yes, they get to sue the officers for what happened to them, because their rights very well may have been violated. The whole point of the existing law is that when an official abuses their position, there is some remedy outside of the criminal court to hold that official accountable."

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/87621...-immune-system

I've been harping on the abuse of union power by a quasi-military force, & general un-accountability to the public they serve.

So there are lots of cases where the police have screwed up, a fine example here that you went back to 1961 (60 years ago, the year I was born) for an example. The fact of the matter is this, the police literally interact with the public in the US and North America millions of times every 24 hours without incident. In Canada the rates of Use of Force vs interactions is minuscule, the rates of Use of Force that result in injury even less and the rates of Use of Force that result in death are almost not worth mentioning from a statistical point of view. So you know, in Canada and the USA I suspect isn't much different the presence of police becomes part of the Use of force model....handcuffing is a use of force. This attached study focuses on Calgary Alberta but these numbers extrapolate easily to across Canada and I suspect are close to the numbers statistically that would be found in the USofA. I have used one of the authors Christine Hall to testify regarding use of force by police at a case I did regarding the a police shooting. Here is a report that I think is pretty clear, enjoy reading something from the inter web.

http://www.nletc.com/files/Calgary-Police-Study.pdf

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Or largely because they commit over 50% of the crime (...mostly against other blacks) while being just 14-ish% of the population. Interestingly enough that blacks voted the guy into office late last year who was responsible for the mass incarceration of blacks via his crime bill. They also continue to put people into office in their cities that do nothing for their community.


....and please don't preach to me about "living while black." I have been doing that for over 40 years.

Not sure what the rules are on your coast, but here they are not allowed to say the race of a perp. My ex would get all the alerts for the borough. They couldn’t say black male in description, only male. Apparently it’s racist if someone says they were attacked or shot by a black male and you repeat it.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Not sure what the rules are on your coast, but here they are not allowed to say the race of a perp. My ex would get all the alerts for the borough. They couldn’t say black male in description, only male. Apparently it’s racist if someone says they were attacked or shot by a black male and you repeat it.

I remember when this became a thing....luckily here it died because we quickly ended up detaining people that were wearing an "X" coloured hoody for example but were of the wrong race. The media still doesn't report on the race of suspects here, but then will go on to say if you've seen this person call crime stoppers or 911.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Not sure what the rules are on your coast, but here they are not allowed to say the race of a perp. My ex would get all the alerts for the borough. They couldn't say black male in description, only male. Apparently it's racist if someone says they were attacked or shot by a black male and you repeat it.

We still use race in our descriptors because it's entirely relevant. I can't believe your coast is acting like that..........and I thought Cali was bad. Sheez!

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Murf993

So there are lots of cases where the police have screwed up, a fine example here that you went back to 1961 (60 years ago, the year I was born) for an example. The fact of the matter is this, the police literally interact with the public in the US and North America millions of times every 24 hours without incident. In Canada the rates of Use of Force vs interactions is minuscule, the rates of Use of Force that result in injury even less and the rates of Use of Force that result in death are almost not worth mentioning from a statistical point of view. So you know, in Canada and the USA I suspect isn't much different the presence of police becomes part of the Use of force model....handcuffing is a use of force. This attached study focuses on Calgary Alberta but these numbers extrapolate easily to across Canada and I suspect are close to the numbers statistically that would be found in the USofA. I have used one of the authors Christine Hall to testify regarding use of force by police at a case I did regarding the a police shooting. Here is a report that I think is pretty clear, enjoy reading something from the inter web.

http://www.nletc.com/files/Calgary-Police-Study.pdf

Thanks Murf#2,

I will admit that I speed-read it, so....
Pretty interesting. But I hate to disappoint anyone: What I have posted disputes none of this article.
I find my relation with cops to be similar to my relation with doctors: As people, I like them. Doctors are smart; most cops want to do good. It's when I am the subject of cops or doctors that I don't enjoy it.

On pg 82 I said, "There is also the dynamic that says, "If they be looking at him now, they might be looking at me tomorrow".
Some think less looking is the answer to this problem, rather than better looking."

Nothing too radical, right?
What happened next?

Murf

Shall we go forwards, or backwards?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Thanks Murf#2,

I will admit that I speed-read it, so....
Pretty interesting. But I hate to disappoint anyone: What I have posted disputes none of this article.
I find my relation with cops to be similar to my relation with doctors: As people, I like them. Doctors are smart; most cops want to do good. It's when I am the subject of cops or doctors that I don't enjoy it.

On pg 82 I said, "There is also the dynamic that says, "If they be looking at him now, they might be looking at me tomorrow".
Some think less looking is the answer to this problem, rather than better looking."

Nothing too radical, right?
What happened next?

Murf

Shall we go forwards, or backwards?

Yeah, you were implying we all turn our heads and ignore, to which I refuted and provided the reasoning AND an example. As always, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about and your articles are empirical evidence of everything.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Yeah, you were implying we all turn our heads and ignore, to which I refuted and provided the reasoning AND an example. As always, I haven't a clue what I'm talking about and your articles are empirical evidence of everything.

"On pg 82 I said, "There is also... "

The above is not indicative of exclusion, or ignoring, of other factors. I'm sorry my figures differed from yours, but such is life. I always include your rigorous theories when reaching my conclusions, as I also consider other sources.

Murf

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

I wish there was a way for the anti police crowd to live a day in the life. Just one day should do it.

I know it's hard to get the anti-police crowd out of mind, but pls don't confuse those with the I-wish-the-police-were-better crowd!
Many of those same folks wish-for-better-politicians, too! (I wish my proctologist was better too)

Murf

PS: Some of us were "saving lives" at 15 yrs old. Literally.

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

I know it's hard to get the anti-police crowd out of mind, but pls don't confuse those with the I-wish-the-police-were-better crowd!
Many of those same folks wish-for-better-politicians, too! (I wish my proctologist was better too)

Murf

PS: Some of us were "saving lives" at 15 yrs old. Literally.

Close your eyes and just think about if you had to worry every single day if your wife would come home after work each day. If you dont live it, you don’t get it.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

Close your eyes and just think about if you had to worry every single day if your wife would come home after work each day. If you dont live it, you don’t get it.

It's called 'empathy'. It is a human emotion. My wife can cry for TV commercials.
In all seriousness, empathy is something that makes us human. People lacking are classified as 'sociopaths', and then 'psychopaths'.

My god father was under water, with not the slightest communication, for 6 months at a time. I understand the sacrifice, unfortunately.

Murf

PS: Do any of you really think I want to live here in Brklyn without lots of the fuzz??
Just one of the reasons we don't object too hard to high taxes....

[TiMSport]

Okay, how's this for a nice story?

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/thi...-senior-photos

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

Okay, how's this for a nice story?

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/thi...-senior-photos

"You are a good man, Charlie Brown"

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

Okay, how's this for a nice story?

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/thi...-senior-photos

It's interesting the things the media reports. Lol! We're good......until we have to make hard decisions and enforce the things people want us to enforce (...while they look away because the work is dirty). As long as we're doing birthday drive-bys, high-5'ing a kid or giving a kid gold Sheriff's stickers (...things I do every day in my patrol area even though the news isn't around to capture it) we stay in their superficial good graces. The moment I have my gun out on a traffic stop or I have to get rough with someone who doesn't listen, all of that lovely gratitude goes out the window in favor of a headline. It's a fickle crowd, so I stop caring and just hope they enjoy the show. Especially when it comes to those who are unwilling to step outside and get punched in the face, but enjoy talking shit behind a closed door (....that's a metaphor).

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It's interesting the things the media reports. Lol! We're good......until we have to make hard decisions and enforce the things people want us to enforce (...while they look away because the work is dirty). As long as we're doing birthday drive-bys, high-5'ing a kid or giving a kid gold Sheriff's stickers (...things I do every day in my patrol area even though the news isn't around to capture it) we stay in their superficial good graces. The moment I have my gun out on a traffic stop or I have to get rough with someone who doesn't listen, all of that lovely gratitude goes out the window in favor of a headline. It's a fickle crowd, so I stop caring and just hope they enjoy the show. Especially when it comes to those who are unwilling to step outside and get punched in the face, but enjoy talking shit behind a closed door (....that's a metaphor).

Oh well. I guess you'd prefer it if the media didn't cover the positive stories? Why do you think you are in their "superficial good graces"? It sounds as though you think the media is out to get you.

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

In many ways the media is. Everything is with a slant.

That's just a sadly jaded view. What do you think the "slant" was in this particular story I linked? It's clear someone made a conscious effort to show a feel good story and one showing a harmonious relationship between a typical cop and those in his community. Last thing I'm thinking to myself is "okay, what's the angle on this?". I understand that I'm not walking in your shoes so I'm not going to pretend to understand it all, but maybe it would be nice to not always be suspicious of a hidden agenda.