[StarrDlux]

dyno's have pressure and other measure devices. throw it a decent dyno (not a dynojet 248c) and emulate road conditions and log.

or better yet get the SSS and go for a spin and do some logging with a bmw techie. they can log all channels if they so choose to.

[baxtr]

Originally Posted by slubu

In the Fall...that is ridiculous.

I agree the fall is ridiculous. I have an idea BMW, why not just load an older program. Whatever program my August 07 E93 had was light years better. I even had less tech issues with my radio/ipod. The way I see it, my dealer broke my car with the update, wouldn't the easiest solution be to revert to my prior program until the issues are resolved.

[StarrDlux]

yeah you'd have to convince them to revert all modules to match the ecu version. good luck. Perhaps you need to get someone who speaks german to phone home to the fatherland.

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by StarrDlux

yeah you'd have to convince them to revert all modules to match the ecu version. good luck. Perhaps you need to get someone who speaks german to phone home to the fatherland.

As someone who actually speaks german and does not even have to phone home since he is a customer of the BMW branch that is next to the BMW factory in Munich, I can tell you: This is not so.

Actually, my car is in the shop right now and hopefully gets a downgrade of the DME, but not the other components.

We talked about this when I asked him if the steptronic has a different control unit than the motor, which he affirmed. I told him, if I had the choice, I'd rather have the old DME and the new steptronic software versions. He answered, that this was what they would do anyway, that is, they do not downgrade everything again.

Normally, they would tell you that's impossible, but it seems they are desperate enough to "just do it" (TM).

However, they are first analysing my problem in-depth, since they say they have no negative feedback in Germany (except from me) for the new softwares and the reports from the USA are neglected since there could be different DME parameters in effect - so he told me.

[Quisp]

For those having the rough idle problem. I have had that for a while. The dealer said there were no problems showing and to drive it in next time it happens. Problem is they are 35 miles away so "driving it in" can be a hassle. There was a bulletin, and the fix was a ECU/Progman update. So I am still living with the idle rather than the lag.

As far as any legal issue with the lag, it has been brought up by someone else that BMW did , and still does advertise that they have elminated lag in this car. So I would think if there is any lag at all, not "how much" lag, but if there is any at all then that would be a false statement.
Just my interpretation, not necessarily a good interpretation though.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by StarrDlux

yeah im sticking it out for now. car rough started twice today. lame. i-drive is retarded can't decide on what setting (cd,fm,dvd-mp3) to stick on. blown right front sub. its a fun car but man i'd rather turn down the bass than turn down the power

thank god its a lease. i'd be all sad if i had to keep it lol.

Now, I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this is YES, but, don't you have the Dinan? If that's the case then, again, like I and others have repeatedly said, Steve @ Dinan's post the other day is not only unclear, but wrong and misleading. By Dinan just taking "BMW latest code" + "replacing some lines to bump performance" we still = crappy base programming that makes the car run like shite.

[slubu]

Originally Posted by StarrDlux

dyno's have pressure and other measure devices. throw it a decent dyno (not a dynojet 248c) and emulate road conditions and log.

or better yet get the SSS and go for a spin and do some logging with a bmw techie. they can log all channels if they so choose to.

Ok I'll be honest I have no idea how to do this. But if this can be done easily, it really makes my life very easy as a lawyer to take this evidence, take BMW's ad page saying no turbo lag, and make a very nice letter to send them and explain how they are misleading the public and their customers. It would be icing on the cake to get the same readout on a pre 29.2 car to direct BMW's blind eye to the new progman so they can fix it.

It also wouldn't be that hard to cc all the relevant car mags and shows out there. I'm not going to lie, no lag on this car is the reason I got it.

I am curious, however, why some people say they do not feel any difference as to lag while others are crying bloody hell. Is there another variable that we are missing?

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by slubu

I am curious, however, why some people say they do not feel any difference as to lag while others are crying bloody hell. Is there another variable that we are missing?

1. Some people with Progman >= 29.2 have just gotten their cars delivered. I doubt one would feel the lag if you cannot compare it back-to-back. It is still a fast car. When I read these people's comments, most may only fear to have become "lagged", but not have experienced it that much.

2. Some people have told about "readaption" and that everything is back to normal after a few hundred miles. I suppose, they re-adapted, indeed.

3. Another factor may be speed and/or RPM range that you operate your car in. With speeds above 35mph, the problem is less apparent, since RPM is > 2000 then, even in D mode. In DS mode, the steptronic keeps RPM > 2000 all the time, so no problem. Starting out from a standstill, the steptronic masks the problem by making use of the torque converter (more than before 29.2). MT owners will probably use somewhat higher RPMs, anyway. The only point I can really feel the problem is in D mode, pushing it at about 1500 RPM, but keeping it in same gear or in M mode and really lugging the car.

[karizma]

Originally Posted by meyergru

1. Some people with Progman >= 29.2 have just gotten their cars delivered. I doubt one would feel the lag if you cannot compare it back-to-back. It is still a fast car. When I read these people's comments, most may only fear to have become "lagged", but not have experienced it that much.

2. Some people have told about "readaption" and that everything is back to normal after a few hundred miles. I suppose, they re-adapted, indeed.

3. Another factor may be speed and/or RPM range that you operate your car in. With speeds above 35mph, the problem is less apparent, since RPM is > 2000 then, even in D mode. In DS mode, the steptronic keeps RPM > 2000 all the time, so no problem. Starting out from a standstill, the steptronic masks the problem by making use of the torque converter (more than before 29.2). MT owners will probably use somewhat higher RPMs, anyway. The only point I can really feel the problem is in D mode, pushing it at about 1500 RPM, but keeping it in same gear or in M mode and really lugging the car.

+ 1

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by meyergru

1. Some people with Progman >= 29.2 have just gotten their cars delivered. I doubt one would feel the lag if you cannot compare it back-to-back. It is still a fast car. When I read these people's comments, most may only fear to have become "lagged", but not have experienced it that much.

2. Some people have told about "readaption" and that everything is back to normal after a few hundred miles. I suppose, they re-adapted, indeed.

3. Another factor may be speed and/or RPM range that you operate your car in. With speeds above 35mph, the problem is less apparent, since RPM is > 2000 then, even in D mode. In DS mode, the steptronic keeps RPM > 2000 all the time, so no problem. Starting out from a standstill, the steptronic masks the problem by making use of the torque converter (more than before 29.2). MT owners will probably use somewhat higher RPMs, anyway. The only point I can really feel the problem is in D mode, pushing it at about 1500 RPM, but keeping it in same gear or in M mode and really lugging the car.

+2 Well said on all accounts.

And Slubu, maybe someone on here can help you datalog on a pre and post 29.2 car and let you send your letter to BMW + mags. That would be great. As I mentioned, I also bought the car in large part due to no lag. If I didn't mind lag, I'd have kept my WRX.

[iScream]

Got my car back today. No apparent reduction in the lag , although I've only driven it a few miles. The technical expert at my shop is out until next week, so I'll try to find a comparison car then, I guess.

Some have pointed out a strange metallic noise in the exhaust note, and driving home I noticed the same thing. Driving along a corridor with a lot of trees (which echo my exhaust sound back to me) I gunned it in 2nd gear over and over again, and each time it made kind of a bleating metallic noise at the very beginning. I suppose that could have been there before, but I never noticed it, not even on this same stretch of road I've driven hundreds of times.

Anyway, if you are experiencing turbo lag, and have not posted in the check-in thread, do so here:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149136

There are only 8 of us, and I know I've seen way more posts than that.

[X1 Trojan]

What is the best way to tell/find out if I have the 29.2 update? I bought the car CPO last month w/ 12k miles, but wasn't sure if they had done the update during the CPO process.

[karizma]

i just hope that bmwna comes up with a fix for this? i'm assuming eventually software will come out to return the car to normal?

i hope..

[BmwFanFL]

Fortunately, my ECU is still brown-idrive-pre-March-just-barely.

I'd like to hear what happens with a well documented letter to BMW. I think Shiv published some data on wastegate percentages pre/post 29.2 a long time ago. Others may have hard data that supports this as well. All would help take this from a paranoid owners to real-data realm. This would be helpful, whether the letter came from a lawyer or not.

A disinterested lawyer I know said it would be very difficult to make a successful case against bmw in this situation. Successful cases against car companies are usually safety or reliability related. Doing something that would increase reliability, while not changing the major metrics (300hp/300ftlb - albeit changing real world performance at lower rpms) isn't likely to get very far and BMW will be likely have the same perspective.

However, I believe customer relations are probably important to BMW and any adverse review or media attention might motivate them.

I dread the day when a break light flickers unexpected and I need new ECU software. I hope it isn't 30.2, with 100% wastegate open under 4000 rpms and no clanging noises...

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by iScream

Got my car back today. No apparent reduction in the lag , although I've only driven it a few miles. The technical expert at my shop is out until next week, so I'll try to find a comparison car then, I guess.

Some have pointed out a strange metallic noise in the exhaust note, and driving home I noticed the same thing. Driving along a corridor with a lot of trees (which echo my exhaust sound back to me) I gunned it in 2nd gear over and over again, and each time it made kind of a bleating metallic noise at the very beginning. I suppose that could have been there before, but I never noticed it, not even on this same stretch of road I've driven hundreds of times.

Anyway, if you are experiencing turbo lag, and have not posted in the check-in thread, do so here:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149136

There are only 8 of us, and I know I've seen way more posts than that.

this metallic noise, can you hold your car in 2nd gear and go up over 1,000 rpm and then down below 1,000 rpm. is that the noise you're talking about?

my 6mt makes that noise (a metal "clack") exactly at 1,000 prm in 2nd gear. it made it right when i got it in april - my car is a premarch build and i assume 29.2 wasn't out in april. anyway, i searched this forum and I found an old thread (way pre 29.2) where the guy described this exact noise at 1,000rpm in 2nd. he took his car to the dealer and they told him it was the exhaust flap opening at 1,000 rpm in 2nd. so i never worried about it. i do experience some lag at low rpms in 4th gear and up. i wonder if i have 29.2.

[slubu]

As an interested lawyer a company cannot expressly advertise that their product has this appealing aspect (no lag), then do something to completely reverse that claim (29.2). It then becomes a material misrepresentation that a buyer relied upon to his detriment in going forward with the transaction. BMW could potentially be liable. They simply CANNOT engage in false advertising. This is contracts 101.

I'd like to add this is off the cuff and not intended to substitute for real legal advice that an attorney can provide

[BmwFanFL]

Originally Posted by slubu

As an interested lawyer a company cannot expressly advertise that their product has this appealing aspect (no lag), then do something to completely reverse that claim (29.2). It then becomes a material misrepresentation that a buyer relied upon to his detriment in going forward with the transaction. BMW could potentially be liable. They simply CANNOT engage in false advertising. This is contracts 101.

I'd like to add this is off the cuff and not intended to substitute for real legal advice that an attorney can provide

I agree in principle, but the legal system does favor established businesses in a few selective cases.....

I only meant to imply, based on friendly conversations with someone in the legal profession, that this will be an uphill battle.

[Quisp]

I think I mentioned this before, but Yamaha had a problem with their R6 one year. The highlight of the ad campaign was the fact the bike redline at a very high number.(I thing 14500rpm) Then a motorcycle magazine dyno tested the bike and found the redline to be 1000 rpm less. After a little publicity and consumer complaints, Yamaha offered to buyback the bikes of customers that bought them based on that claim and no longer wnated the bikes. They also gave undisclosed settlements to other customers.
BMW is still saying this car has no lag, yet many owners have developed a case of the lags. What's wrong with this picture?

[slubu]

Originally Posted by BmwFanny

I agree in principle, but the legal system does favor established businesses in a few selective cases.....

I only meant to imply, based on friendly conversations with someone in the legal profession, that this will be an uphill battle.

Yeah I realize this, practically speaking it will be very hard to get BMW to act based on the threat of legal action.

[visor]

Originally Posted by slubu

Yeah I realize this, practically speaking it will be very hard to get BMW to act based on the threat of legal action.

Likely, the most effective approach (ie. cost and time wise) is to get Car & Driver, Edmunds.com, etc to to investigate this issue in order to "shame" BMW into correcting this problem. I'm sure that BMW is probably working on a solution to it as we speak... after all, the 3L TT engine is also used in the 1, 5, and X6 series. But it wouldn't hurt to give them some "bad press" to give them some added incentive!

[StarrDlux]

no kidding this shame will allow audi's 3.0TT to spank bmw up and down street in short time. I tell you games like this make me really wonder..

Anyone actually brake stand a 29.2 AT6 and see what their 0-60 is?

[ezatnova]

Guys, FWIW I wrote Car and Driver. I did not link them to this forum as I figured that was probably too time consuming for them and too much to rifle through.

At least we are compiling a list of affected owners though, on the "** Official 29.2... ** thread. We are only up to 11 people though...people need to sign up!