[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by dixy2k

Would the EGR cooler be safe now, as opposed to the past when the thermal stress occurred?

I haven't seen any specific data on this. I've read speculation both ways. So ... I don't know. Others might?

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Logged data on the drive to work this morning. Just a few degrees above 0F. No codes. Interestingly, the EGR Commanded % is now showing essentially 0% during operation. Will keep monitoring this behavior, as it's different than the behavior from Ecotune's first remap...

thats a good result. Next step (IMO anyway) would be to have him set it up so that the EGR opens up some for warm up and then closes down once temp is reached like the malone dynamic EGR for VW. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=305248

Originally Posted by 335dFan

My reason for asking is that, as I understand it, the DPF is upstream from the DOC, and with the DPF no longer filtering anything, what previously was filtered by the DPF is flowing straight into the DOC. Is this correct? Or do I have the sequence wrong? Are you still pumping DEF into the exhaust stream post-DPF, or is that not how it works?

I believe the DOC is first in line and the DPF comes after.

Originally Posted by Mark M

Sidenote....I began to scan data last night with my BavTech. Just idling in the garage the car was calling for 40% EGR. I was too lazy to go for a drive with the laptop hooked up, maybe this weekend I'll track it in motion.

when TDI and I compared data logs of EGR activity we both saw the EGR being commanded close to 100% while actively driving. Under idle it would drop down to a lower % for me.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by 335dFan

I guess I must have misread this video from another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Pm3I7UuhEqA

that video doesnt show the DOC, thats where the confusion is. The DPF and DOC are both in the same canister (which the video shows as just the DPF), there is another converter downstream of that which is the SCR.

[dixy2k]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

I haven't seen any specific data on this. I've read speculation both ways. So ... I don't know. Others might?

I don't remember if it was you or somebody else with a cracked EGR cooler (4 times) due closing the EGR valve through software.

I was just curious to see if the cooler would go through the same stress now with the blanking plate as it did before by software only.

[dixy2k]

I spoke with someone at Renntech today regarding the power increase and EGR valve delete code.
He said many problems arise from driving mostly in the city at low RPM and the DPF does not have the chance to perform the regeneration process.
Apparently with the increased power there is more heat generated which would help in aiding the regen.

Does anyboby know at what RPM the EGR valve is starting to close or be at 50% closed?
What RPM range should the engine operate most of the time in order to have less soot go back inside the engine?

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by dixy2k

I spoke with someone at Renntech today regarding the power increase and EGR valve delete code.
He said many problems arise from driving mostly in the city at low RPM and the DPF does not have the chance to perform the regeneration process.
Apparently with the increased power there is more heat generated which would help in aiding the regen.

Does anyboby know at what RPM the EGR valve is starting to close or be at 50% closed?
What RPM range should the engine operate most of the time in order to have less soot go back inside the engine?

It's not rpm based when driving. It is load based. Below 140F EGR is not called for at super high levels. Once coolant gets above 140 EGR utilization skyrockets. At higher loads the EGR starts being reduced. At full fueling it goes to 0. Coasting in gear will bring it to 0 most of the time. During DPF regen the EGR closes. At sub-0 temps (I think it was around -5 or -10F and below from my memory) the EGR closes. During steady state operation with the stock mapping on highway the EGR would call for 90%+ EGR utilization, unless passing or going up a good hill. I've got lots and lots of data logged showing this behavior. It's not a good thing if you want to avoid intake clogging.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...02&postcount=8

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=67

[dixy2k]

As I drive mostly in the city, I would like to prevent clogging as much as possible, especially now that I have first hand experience with this issue.

So, should I just ask Renntech to keep it closed all the time?
I don't want to have the cracked EGR cooler problem either.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by dixy2k

I don't remember if it was you or somebody else with a cracked EGR cooler (4 times) due closing the EGR valve through software.

I was just curious to see if the cooler would go through the same stress now with the blanking plate as it did before by software only.

I did not see a direct cause and affect from that thread. There are also reports of stock vehicles cracking EGR coolers. Having said that ... whenever you increase power/torque above stock you will be pushing things in the system closer to the edge.

I plan to remove the EGR cooler. Bought a used one off eBay and got it last week to look at and play with. Just got some new coolant pipes that connect to the cooler. Something else on "the list" to do...

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Logged data on the drive to work this morning. Just a few degrees above 0F. No codes. Interestingly, the EGR Commanded % is now showing essentially 0% during operation. Will keep monitoring this behavior, as it's different than the behavior from Ecotune's first remap...

Didn't start the logging on the return trip home until after I had ran some errands. It was substantially warmer ... a balmy 21 F.

A little more EGR utilization than this morning in the cold weather, but still dramatically different than before Ecotune removed the specific codes.

Stan got back to me and said the only thing he did was pull the codes, no other differences than the first remap. So I'm not sure what is going on with the different EGR behavior. But I do like having the blocking plate and no codes.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Socom

EPA apparently thinks 10,000 nm or smaller is the worry. If DPF reduces net PM under this threshold when compared to no-DPF we should be happy correct?

That's part of what I think is crazy. The smaller particles penetrate more easily in the lungs, into the bloodstream, into the blood ...and can do more damage than the bigger particles. The DPF shifts the particle exhaust from large to tiny, it does not eliminate particles. And it significantly increases NO2, which is not a good thing. The last link in my post comparing health impact to exhaust from the same engine with and without DPF :


Rather than reducing toxicity, +DPF exhaust resulted in heightened injury and inflammation, consistent with the 4-fold increase in NO2 concentration. The ratio of bigET-1 to ET-1 was similarly elevated after −DPF and +DPF exhaust exposures. Endothelial dysfunction, thus, appeared related to particle number deposited, rather than particle mass or NO2 concentration. The potential benefits of particulate matter reduction using a catalyzed DPF may be confounded by increase in NO2 emission and release of reactive ultrafine particles.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

That's part of what I think is crazy. The smaller particles penetrate more easily in the lungs, into the bloodstream, into the blood ...and can do more damage than the bigger particles. The DPF shifts the particle exhaust from large to tiny, it does not eliminate particles. And it significantly increases NO2, which is not a good thing. The last link in my post comparing health impact to exhaust from the same engine with and without DPF :


Rather than reducing toxicity, +DPF exhaust resulted in heightened injury and inflammation, consistent with the 4-fold increase in NO2 concentration. The ratio of bigET-1 to ET-1 was similarly elevated after −DPF and +DPF exhaust exposures. Endothelial dysfunction, thus, appeared related to particle number deposited, rather than particle mass or NO2 concentration. The potential benefits of particulate matter reduction using a catalyzed DPF may be confounded by increase in NO2 emission and release of reactive ultrafine particles.

Ya.IIRC the study in question focused at the absolute smallest of particle size (<1000 nm). I would ask what about the reduction in particles >1000 nm X < 10,000 nm? These aren't any "less bad" after all. I'll have to read the entire page on my home PC but I suspect the science behind DPF is sound .

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Socom

Ya.IIRC the study in question focused at the absolute smallest of particle size (<1000 nm). I would ask what about the reduction in particles >1000 nm X < 10,000 nm? These aren't any "less bad" after all. I'll have to read the entire page on my home PC but I suspect the science behind DPF is sound .

I'd agree the DPF works pretty good at reducing particle MASS, and certain range of particle sizes. But a catalyst based DPF like we have increases the particle NUMBER of nano or ultrafine particles. There's a relative small body of research on the health impacts of the ultrafine particles. The choice to move to the DPF was done before knowing the extent of the health impact of the ultra fine particles the DPF creates. The DPF like we have significantly increases the number of nano particles, and the growing body of evidence on health impact is not good. That health report link shows worse health impacts to an engine equipped with DPF than without it.

This is a great paper which goes over a whole bunch of aspects to ultrafine pollution.

http://www.durhamenvironmentwatch.or...enceFinal1.pdf

One really nice quote to think about before drifting off to sleep.

When environmental UFPs (such as from traffic
pollution or incineration) gain unintentional entry to the body, it appears that there is a
pre
-
existing mechanism which can deliver them to vital organs
[36]
. The body is then ‘wide
open’ to any toxic effects that they can exert.

It also goes into the impact of the particles and toxicity getting into the brain and impacting things that are believed to cause parkinson's and alzheimer's ...

This growing body of evidence is showing worse health impacts than bigger particles. The health link I posted demonstrated a direct cause and affect of increased health impacts with the DPF than without the DPF...

It's an area I'm interested in and keep researching. There's also lots of vested interest from a diverse group of governments, industries, etc. that are pushing each other. I kinda like the political drama of that as well.

[335dFan]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

I'd agree the DPF works pretty good at reducing particle MASS, and certain range of particle sizes. But a catalyst based DPF like we have increases the particle NUMBER of nano or ultrafine particles. There's a relative small body of research on the health impacts of the ultrafine particles. The choice to move to the DPF was done before knowing the extent of the health impact of the ultra fine particles the DPF creates. The DPF like we have significantly increases the number of nano particles, and the growing body of evidence on health impact is not good. That health report link shows worse health impacts to an engine equipped with DPF than without it.

This is a great paper which goes over a whole bunch of aspects to ultrafine pollution.

http://www.durhamenvironmentwatch.or...enceFinal1.pdf

One really nice quote to think about before drifting off to sleep.

When environmental UFPs (such as from traffic
pollution or incineration) gain unintentional entry to the body, it appears that there is a
pre
-
existing mechanism which can deliver them to vital organs
[36]
. The body is then ‘wide
open’ to any toxic effects that they can exert.

It also goes into the impact of the particles and toxicity getting into the brain and impacting things that are believed to cause parkinson's and alzheimer's ...

This growing body of evidence is showing worse health impacts than bigger particles. The health link I posted demonstrated a direct cause and affect of increased health impacts with the DPF than without the DPF...

It's an area I'm interested in and keep researching. There's also lots of vested interest from a diverse group of governments, industries, etc. that are pushing each other. I kinda like the political drama of that as well.

I guess I won't be bragging anymore about how the 335d exhaust is so clean I could take a breath right from the tail pipe.

[135i_vs_]

Not looking good for this guy...

[dixy2k]

Would this tool be useful to code out the DPF?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271192033704...84.m1423.l2649

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Yeah I am unmapped (JBD only). Same codes. I can update on the blanking plate install later, I will check the specific sizes for what I used since thats realistically the important part.

The hole saw that I used was 2-1/8". I just cut a blank out of a sheet of 22 gauge steel I had laying around and applied high temp copper gasket maker around the outside of both sides. Very similar to what TDIwyse showed earlier aside from using the hole saw to cut out the blank. 2-1/8" is about the perfect size, it fits perfectly between the two bolts connecting the egr pipe to the egr valve.

[Puerto Rican 335d]

Damn I started this thread a while ago and its gotten very interesting 193 post woohoo!!

[TDIwyse]

The oil is showing much less "soot" in suspension. This pic is with over 2000 miles and more than 2 months after an oil change. Some of the first miles was completely stock, some was modified but without the EGR completely off, but most is with EGR completely off. I expect the following oil changes to show even cleaner oil as some of the clinging residual internal soot that doesn't completely drain off with a single change gets removed.

[FormerRotor]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

The oil is showing much less "soot" in suspension. This pic is with over 2000 miles and more than 2 months after an oil change. Some of the first miles was completely stock, some was modified but without the EGR completely off, but most is with EGR completely off. I expect the following oil changes to show even cleaner oil as some of the clinging residual internal soot that doesn't completely drain off with a single change gets removed.

I think 1-2 more oil changes and you will be looking at amber oil...something none of us have seen in some time.

It occurred to me that you may currently be benefiting from having the EGR Cooler in place. Thinking of the people saying they've heard rumor of sporadic coolant temps post-removal, it's started to make some sense to me. Diesels don't tend to generate nearly as much heat as their gas counterparts, and if you think about it, you are still benefiting from some of the heat which the EGR cooler is putting back into the coolant (thus faster warmup, less heat loss at idle during low ambient scenarios, etc).

One of my truck friends had told me a while ago that he had "straight piped the EGR cooler". I didn't think twice about it at the time, but I'm thinking he may have left it in place in order to keep the heat and looped it back through to the exhaust instead of having the piping terminate at the intake. I will be sure to run it by him the next time I see him.

Any thoughts?

[Puerto Rican 335d]

Interesting Rotor I had the same notion you have why not have it directly involved with the exhaust instead of the intake it makes no sense to reroute and POLLUTE the car. But again I live in Paradise and cold issue is not warranted therefore DPF and EGR MUST go in 2014!!

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by FormerRotor

I think 1-2 more oil changes and you will be looking at amber oil...something none of us have seen in some time.

It occurred to me that you may currently be benefiting from having the EGR Cooler in place. Thinking of the people saying they've heard rumor of sporadic coolant temps post-removal, it's started to make some sense to me. Diesels don't tend to generate nearly as much heat as their gas counterparts, and if you think about it, you are still benefiting from some of the heat which the EGR cooler is putting back into the coolant (thus faster warmup, less heat loss at idle during low ambient scenarios, etc).

One of my truck friends had told me a while ago that he had "straight piped the EGR cooler". I didn't think twice about it at the time, but I'm thinking he may have left it in place in order to keep the heat and looped it back through to the exhaust instead of having the piping terminate at the intake. I will be sure to run it by him the next time I see him.

Any thoughts?

I tend to think you are correct. The heat from the exhaust is still getting into the EGR cooler, which is close to the exhaust manifold, even though the blockage is at the EGR valve by the intake manifold. So the coolant flowing thru the EGR cooler is still able to pick up some heat. I have lots of data on the coolant behavior over several years in all kinds of environments (100+F summer to -15F winter).

I'd like to remove the cooler mainly due to the potential issues of it cracking and leaking coolant into places that can cause serious damage. But, if that produces coolant temp behavior that is unhealthy... then maybe we'll just need to make a stronger, more robust EGR cooler. The domestic diesel trucks have some upgraded EGR cooler options such as this:

http://www.bulletproofdiesel.com/Bul.../nt-egrc-1.htm

[dixy2k]

I hope those BMW engineers/designers are reading this forum.