[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sambonator

Maybe this post of yours?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=22

And how is the content of that post wrong sambonator?

Shiv

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And how is the content of that post wrong sambonator?

Shiv

I don't know whether its right or wrong. I think you are right on this one. I was just posting what I thought Orb was referring to.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sambonator

I don't know whether its right or wrong. I think you are right on this one. I was just posting what I thought Orb was referring to.

It's cool. I'm sure he will have something to say soon enough.

[WilyB]

Originally Posted by sambonator

I was just posting what I thought Orb was referring to.

Orb is busy keeping the one and only one operational Canadian sub out of four up and running!



PS: I hope Orb, whom I do can take a joke?

[scalbert]

I am somewhat on the fence here as I can see both sides. Working in the industrial sector with a team of engineers reporting to me, I certainly understand the need for details and information. However, I have also designed automotive parts, tuned cars and purchased many parts and realize that the extensiveness an OEM goes through is never repeated in the aftermarket.

While Dinan has stated they have done testing, what were the specifics of the tests and conditions? I know this has not been divulged nor will be so there could be some marketing fluff in there. As engineers, we still need to remember that, especially with consumer products, marketing will embellish the actual facts. Concurrently, I am sure Dinan engineers investigated the limits of the various components involved and produced a fine product within the confines of a budget.

The one disagreement I have in this thread is the usefulness of race testing and pounding of a vehicle. If simple test cells were 100% reliable we would have never seen a fuel pump failure. However, we have and this is most likely due to variables not witnessed in Siemens VDO (no longer under Siemens though) test benches. Product lifecycle tests are primarily conducted because real world tests are time and cost prohibitive. And yes, I do have experience as I have designed a unique catalytic converter life cycle test stand still used by Calsonic. The problem with test stands is that they do not face the conditions experienced on the road; loading changes due to shock and vibration or even sudden moisture such as running through a puddle.

Track conditions do put a significant load on components and exaggerate what normal driving experiences. IMO, the limitation is the smaller sample group. It is easier to test hundreds or thousands of parts in a test cell versus on the road. However, I have not met a single automotive product design engineer that would not prefer to have the product tested on the road.

With this said, I was interested in the Dinan flash for a while until I was realistic about what the future might hold for my vehicle.

[Jayman729]

Originally Posted by S4to335

I dont think Orb works at either Mt View or Gilroy/Morgan Hill...he says he is from Vancouver...either BC or Washington. I live right between Mt View and Gilroy..and have a friend Izzy Sanchez that works for Dinan..or he did last time I saw him. I am gonna try to track him down to get some lowdown on this issue.

Izzy definitely still works for Dinan....he covers all of the West Coast.... just call the main office in Morgan Hill and they'll help you track him down.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Are you saying that Dinan has access to every engine control parameter in the ECU rom file? I've been reflashing Subaru and Evo ecus for years and I know for a fact that even those relatively simple ECUs aren't fully cracked. And that family of ECUs have been around for the last 6 years. I look at the final results to see the quality of a tune. Not white papers.



A good piggy can do a lot more than you think. We have controlled the 335s cam timing with the PROcede before. And found no benefits to power, spool up or knock resistance. BMW did a good job from the get-go and this isn't exactly a surprise. So we ended up using those extra digital inputs/outputs for something else. I suppose we'd be screwed if we needed to play around with injector phasing or rev limiters. But there is no need for that as far as I can tell. If you can tell me something useful that cannot/has not/will not be done with a piggy, I'd appreciate it. In return, I can tell you half a dozen things that can be done only with a piggy and not with a reflash. Things a lot more useful than injector phasing and rev limit adjustments. We do both reflash and piggyback tuning so we have a pretty good handle on this subject.



We have done periodic leakdown tests of the engine. We have tested free-play on the turbos. We have measured heat accumulation in the cylinder head and exhaust gas temp during sustained loading conditions. The later is the reason we implement a boost decay that is a function of average torque output (not IAT, oil or coolant temp). You see, with a good piggy, there are things we can do that simply cannot be done by remapping the factory ECU. We can implement logic that is more suitable for the extra 100whp we are trying to support. Logic that simply doesn't exist in the factory ROM file, regardless of the hex data in the tables. Tearing down a perfectly good engine is a bit extreme. I don't think anyone has done that. It's one thing to do that on a compromised motor in an effort to isolate the first point of failure. Doing it on a healthy motor is just a waste of time.



Orb isn't one to hint

shiv

It obvious you done a lot of software based work and much of it is very impressive but you are missing the point. Your goal to increase power is not without risk. Without doing some basic research you are risking your customer’s engines. The above comments realy show you mentality on the subject. Talk about I guess when customers engines show signs of problems then it might be time to take a better look at it then but we all know that going to be possibly years away.

Investing 20 proceed worth of income into fundamental research can go long way and if something does go wrong you likely to have something useful from this.

There is nothing wrong in your approach but saying it without risk is outright arrogant. Your constant bashing of vendors is somewhat deceitful in which you carefully manipulate statements only to show yourself in better light and it doesn’t go unnoticed. In some case you absolutely had very good reason to pursue lies form other vendors but it is double edge sword. Your are lot more convincing when you keep to the facts than stating opinions.

Orb

[Orb]

Originally Posted by WilyB

Orb is busy keeping the one and only one operational Canadian sub out of four up and running!



PS: I hope Orb, whom I do can take a joke?

I don’t think our US Navy Admiral would.

Orb

[wj4]

Orb-are you associated with Dinan at all in any shape or form? From reading your posts, I get the feeling you are. But I don't see the usual SN such as "orb@dinan"...just curious.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by wj4

Orb-are you associated with Dinan at all in any shape or form? From reading your posts, I get the feeling you are. But I don't see the usual SN such as "orb@dinan"...just curious.

He's pissed at Shiv for a customer service situation but now he's pretending to have a problem with Shiv's R&D methodology.

<added> Oh, and he loves to call others "arrogant":

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=127

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=183 </added>

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by wj4

Orb-are you associated with Dinan at all in any shape or form? From reading your posts, I get the feeling you are. But I don't see the usual SN such as "orb@dinan"...just curious.

That's not fair and you know it

Because, some of us on here have some engineering experience does not mean we are after one vender and not another one. It may be a little unfair to gang up on Shiv but its mostly because he responds. We would be asking the same questions to other vendors if they would state their methodology.

Shiv also won’t admit to doing any type of engine analysis, which I can guarantee Dinan has done. No, I won’t bet my life on it, but its basically assumed in their position. Having this type data available will provide a level of QA and that’s all we are questioning.

[ElKay]

Originally Posted by scalbert

With this said, I was interested in the Dinan flash for a while until I was realistic about what the future might hold for my vehicle.

What exactly do you mean by this statement. It sounds as if you are concerned about the vehicle's longevity with the extra boost. I am considering the Dinan flash and would like your input. I do not intend to track the vehicle or push it very hard. I just want a little extra power for when I want to feel young again (turning 40 this year). Heck, I only put about 5,000 - 7,000 miles per year on my car. Orb, your input would be useful as well. Shiv, I think I know your answer as you already push your vehicles past 13.2 psi, but feel free to chime in. It was actually your (Shiv's) review of the Dinan flash that led me to consider this option as you see my main reason for the flash. Also, since my car is actually arriving in about 4 weeks do you think I need to put some miles on my car before I flash? Any information would be helpful. Anyone else feel free to give your opinion. I am buying this vehicle. Thanks.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by lawdude

He's pissed at Shiv for a customer service situation but now he's pretending to have a problem with Shiv's R&D methodology.

<added> Oh, and he loves to call others "arrogant":

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=127

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=183 </added>

You are certainly are an instigator aren't you.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by Orb

You are certainly are an instigator aren't you.

I'm hurt that you didn't call me an "arrogant instigator."

[Orb]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I'm hurt that you didn't call me an "arrogant instigator."

I will go as far as trouble maker.

Orb

[wj4]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

That's not fair and you know it

Because, some of us on here have some engineering experience does not mean we are after one vender and not another one. It may be a little unfair to gang up on Shiv but its mostly because he responds. We would be asking the same questions to other vendors if they would state their methodology.

Shiv also won’t admit to doing any type of engine analysis, which I can guarantee Dinan has done. No, I won’t bet my life on it, but its basically assumed in their position. Having this type data available will provide a level of QA and that’s all we are questioning.

I wasn't trying to be an asshole or anything by asking the question. I've read many of Orb's posts and I get a feeling that he works or is related to Dinan...which means he is a representative for them. I simply just want to know if it's true..or not. As far as I'm concern, I'm a neutral party , and not a fan boy towards either camp, as I don't plan on buying an ECU enhancer for my 335i at all.

[lawdude]

I agree. Anyone who modifies/intercepts an otherwise perfectly good ecu to increase power has a screw loose.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I agree. Anyone who modifies/intercepts an otherwise perfectly good ecu to increase power has a screw loose.

Nice, this might be a signature quote....

[wj4]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I agree. Anyone who modifies/intercepts an otherwise perfectly good ecu to increase power has a screw loose.

Prior to owning this car, I had an Evo. When I bought that car..all I had in my mind is 'I'm going to slap on a bigger turbo on it' and make so much HP. The phrase 'you have to pay to play' definitely came into effect. Anything ranging from multiple CELs, misfiring, boost leaks to premature clutch slipping. It was a headache, especially since it was my one and only car. When I got my 335i, I was already determined from the start to keep the car a 'virgin' in the performance department as I don't plan on tracking the car at all.

I'm familiar with Shiv's work from the time I've been on EvolutionM and Socalevo though, but again, I've never had his product so I'm staying neutral.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by wj4

Prior to owning this car, I had an Evo. When I bought that car..all I had in my mind is 'I'm going to slap on a bigger turbo on it' and make so much HP. The phrase 'you have to pay to play' definitely came into effect. Anything ranging from multiple CELs, misfiring, boost leaks to premature clutch slipping. It was a headache, especially since it was my one and only car. When I got my 335i, I was already determined from the start to keep the car a 'virgin' in the performance department as I don't plan on tracking the car at all.

I'm familiar with Shiv's work from the time I've been on EvolutionM and Socalevo though, but again, I've never had his product so I'm staying neutral.

Thats too bad. I had a 35R on my Evo for over 40k miles. It got better mileage than stock, and other than being a bit louder on the interstate due to the larger hotside, the car drove just like stock....and on the stock clutch for over 70k miles. I also built and tuned it myself, so I knew exactly what was going on at all times, however

[wj4]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Thats too bad. I had a 35R on my Evo for over 40k miles. It got better mileage than stock, and other than being a bit louder on the interstate due to the larger hotside, the car drove just like stock....and on the stock clutch for over 70k miles. I also built and tuned it myself, so I knew exactly what was going on at all times, however

One of the bigger turn offs in Cali is the police check points and mobile smog stations. Getting sent to a ref station and you have to convert completely back to stock sucks. With the 335i, the only 2 things I can get ticketed for are no front plate and tint, which is a breeze comparing to swapping a turbo out just for a day to get the green light from the ref.

We also did everything ourselves from a simple Walbro pump install to doing 3rd gear pulls, working on cars at 2AM, and waking up at 5AM to go to school and work since all the well known Evo shops in So Cal are at least 50 miles each way away.

[ElKay]

Hey guys if you get a minute check #188 and if you have an opinion please let me know.