[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by John 070

The one thing about my wife, is she's never owned a home. I bought our home before we were married, when I was single. If she wanted to get a mortgage, then I think it has to be nearly 100% based on her employment, since there is not a long history of payments on a loan. The only thing there is, a long history of a couple of credit cards, paid every month in full. Right now, she's not working, rather dealing with the toddler lol

At any rate, you can feel fortunate to have experienced mutliple M3's. That right now is elusive for me, an M car. but someday I'll either get an M, or something like a nice Corvette, when the toddler is in college haha Maybe I'll just treat myself to a nice set of Bilstein B16's! on my Citi Double!

Preach. I'd love one as well, but I'm about 30 years away from being able to comfortably afford one. Some day, though, assuming BMW's M division maintains its relative standing among its current (and future) competitors.

[Torgus]

Chase Reserve /thread

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

What pisses me off is that for the last 15 years or so, i've been the personal guarantor on a hand full of credit lines, lines of credit which had annual purchases of $3 to $5 million dollars. Hell, the three largest manufacturers in my industry have issued me unlimited credit lines for the past 7 years. We've spend upwards of $500k annually on my company Amex! How on earth the guy who's on the hook for the bottom line debt of those purchases doesn't get purchase history on their credit is beyond me.

In fact, i need to contact someone and see why my Amex purchases aren't hitting my credit history. That's some bullshit right there.

I just got a credit line against my investments, and in the disclosure it says it doesn't count towards building credit. It can hurt if you don't pay, but it won't help.

I suspect a business Amex and other cards with hidden tradelines (like my JPM Reserve, not sure which other personal cards have a hidden tradeline besides the JPM Reserve and Centurion) work the same way. If you don't pay, it hurts your credit. But because of the hidden tradeline it won't help you. The reason I like the hidden tradeline is because I can put everything on that card and my utilization will be 0%, which definitely helps the credit score.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by John 070

The one thing about my wife, is she's never owned a home. I bought our home before we were married, when I was single. If she wanted to get a mortgage, then I think it has to be nearly 100% based on her employment, since there is not a long history of payments on a loan. The only thing there is, a long history of a couple of credit cards, paid every month in full. Right now, she's not working, rather dealing with the toddler lol

At any rate, you can feel fortunate to have experienced mutliple M3's. That right now is elusive for me, an M car. but someday I'll either get an M, or something like a nice Corvette, when the toddler is in college haha Maybe I'll just treat myself to a nice set of Bilstein B16's! on my Citi Double!

Originally Posted by atxgt3

I just got a credit line against my investments, and in the disclosure it says it doesn't count towards building credit. It can hurt if you don't pay, but it won't help.

I suspect a business Amex and other cards with hidden tradelines (like my JPM Reserve, not sure which other personal cards have a hidden tradeline besides the JPM Reserve and Centurion) work the same way. If you don't pay, it hurts your credit. But because of the hidden tradeline it won't help you. The reason I like the hidden tradeline is because I can put everything on that card and my utilization will be 0%, which definitely helps the credit score.

It just sucks having spent all that money whilst utilizing extended credit and not getting any recognition from it. I suppose having upwards of $1m in current mortgages while taking a minimum salary from the business doesn't help large credit purchase decisions either.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I don't really get into how all this work because like your wife, i generally buy things cash, (aside from cars and property) the only card i use is Amex, for the rewards as you stated.

My anecdotal experience stems from a vehicle purchase. Over the years, I've financed 6 vehicles, 4 of them M3s. The normal deal was my company would make the purchase, i would be the personal guarantor for all of them. In my eyes, i'm on the hook for those purchases and those purchases were going to be on my credit history. Well, after the housing market crash and new sets of banking regulations went into effect, i went to purchase a new vehicle. Like all the rest, almost no interest, nothing down, sign and drive is what i expected. To my surprise, my credit was denied and when i questioned how it could be denied they assured me my credit was fantastic, over 800 in fact, but i didn't have any purchase history other than my current mortgages.

Now, with the new loan regs, my name and credit are attached to that last vehicle purchase, even though the company is making the purchase. This makes sense to me.

What pisses me off is that for the last 15 years or so, i've been the personal guarantor on a hand full of credit lines, lines of credit which had annual purchases of $3 to $5 million dollars. Hell, the three largest manufacturers in my industry have issued me unlimited credit lines for the past 7 years. We've spend upwards of $500k annually on my company Amex! How on earth the guy who's on the hook for the bottom line debt of those purchases doesn't get purchase history on their credit is beyond me.

In fact, i need to contact someone and see why my Amex purchases aren't hitting my credit history. That's some bullshit right there.

If that company Amex is a charge card, it wouldn't really count toward your credit since you're paying it off each month. If you did the same on one of the Amex credit cards, that would be a different story.

Just spitballin'... I don't claim to be a doctor, I just play one on the forum.

[atxgt3]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

It just sucks having spent all that money whilst utilizing extended credit and not getting any recognition from it. I suppose having upwards of $1m in current mortgages while taking a minimum salary from the business doesn't help large credit purchase decisions either.

Yeah, my credit history wasn't that extensive either. It never really caused me any problems, but I've switched my thinking from buying everything cash to using loans whenever I can. Credit is so cheap these days it's almost a crime not to use it. I just put as much as I can in investments and use cheap loans when I can. That's why I got a credit line against my investments in case I need a big chunk of cash for another investment or taxes.

My credit score has gone up after I started loaning more money, even if my current balance to original loan amount is really high.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

Preach. I'd love one as well, but I'm about 30 years away from being able to comfortably afford one. Some day, though, assuming BMW's M division maintains its relative standing among its current (and future) competitors.

I was all convinced on the M2, then a coworker told me about the crooked seat etc., and then I admitted spending $52k right now on a car really isn't the wisest move having a 3 y.o. toddler....I man'd up and finally bought a used DD car with cash, preserving my precious 335i lol (I can't bear to drive that in salt)

I have to admit I have never bought a nice used car before (junk ones in my college days) with cash, it felt good. Wife even thought it was a good move.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by John 070

I was all convinced on the M2, then a coworker told me about the crooked seat etc., and then I admitted spending $52k right now on a car really isn't the wisest move having a 3 y.o. toddler....I man'd up and finally bought a used DD car with cash, preserving my precious 335i lol (I can't bear to drive that in salt)

I have to admit I have never bought a nice used car before (junk ones in my college days) with cash, it felt good. Wife even thought it was a good move.

Delayed gratification is often the wise move given the fact that compounding returns from the stock market (not individual stocks, but ETFs/index funds) yield exponential growth over sufficiently long periods of time.

The trick of course is to find the right balance between frugality and splurging a little to enjoy life.

[PoorLurker]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

to comfortably afford one.

You seem to do a lot of research on financial literacy. What is your definition of comfortably being able to afford one? % of household income? % of net worth? I always like to hear different takes on this type of stuff. Especially when reading the quote below

Originally Posted by NemesisX

The trick of course is to find the right balance between frugality and splurging a little to enjoy life.

Some people hunt for the hunt and some people hunt for the kill. Sometimes people think they are delaying their kill, but they are unknowingly hunters hunting for the hunt.

Hunting analogy courtesy of Aceyalone

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

You seem to do a lot of research on financial literacy. What is your definition of comfortably being able to afford one? % of household income? % of net worth? I always like to hear different takes on this type of stuff. Especially when reading the quote below



Some people hunt for the hunt and some people hunt for the kill. Sometimes people think they are delaying their kill, but they are unknowingly hunters hunting for the hunt.

Hunting analogy courtesy of Aceyalone

I'm honestly a neophyte when it comes to finance. All of my finance education comes from several engineering economics classes I had to take in undergrad plus the usual lessons in frugality that come with growing up in an Asian household (IIRC you are also asian so I'm sure you can relate!)

There are so many "rules of thumb" out there for what it takes to "afford" a car and quite honestly I think they're all extremely arbitrary and overly simplified.

The more nuanced way I look at things is to ask myself the question "Will this purchase compromise my ability to reach my net worth milestones by age 40, 50, 60, and beyond?" If the answer is "no," then I can afford it. If the answer is "yes," then I can't afford whatever it is I'm trying to buy.

Those net worth milestones are going to be extremely individualized. There are people out there who don't particularly care about amassing great wealth for its own sake. There are others who have the luxury of guaranteed pensions that, in conjunction with social security, will replace most if not all of their income in perpetuity irrespective of dividend income and realized capital gains from their brokerage accounts.

For me, I value the ability of my brokerage/retirement accounts to provide passive income through dividends and realized capital gains that cover 100%+ of my spending as early as possible. It's a game to me, and quick financial independence is the goal even though I have no intentions on retiring early.

In order to do that, I always view sufficiently large purchases (greater than, say, $5000) in terms of future value.

I'm a 25 year old 3rd year medical student with 0 (current) income and a net worth slightly north of $100k (thanks to several paid internships in reservoir and process engineering at exxon and shell during undergraduate summers, being extremely lucky with a couple of "big bets" in the stock market, and having my extremely generous parents finance everything in my life from tuition to housing to my current vehicle and beyond).

That $100k and change is currently allocated 100% in an ETF that tracks the S&P500. Could I sell my stock and purchase an M4 right now? Sure. Would that be colossally stupid? Absolutely.

That $100k is worth more like $500k-$1M by the time I'm 55, assuming an average compound annual growth rate of 5-7%. So when I ask myself the question do I want to spend $80k on an M4 right now, I'm really asking myself the question do I want to spend upwards of $1M in 2046 dollars on a god damned vehicle and how will that affect my ability to achieve the net worth I want to achieve by age 55.

After 4th year, I'll be in residency/fellowship for 3-8 years making $50k-$60k per year. After that, who knows. But the reason why I say I won't be able to afford an M car for 30 years is simply because the net worth milestone I want to hit by age 55 is sufficiently high. It doesn't have to be as high as it is, but it's sufficiently high to where it would be prudent for me to "make do" with driving my current vehicle into the ground and purchase used, reliable, entry level luxury vehicles for the next couple of decades.

Why entry level luxury vehicles and not something like a used civic or toyota corolla? Well, it goes back finding that right balance. I guess you can think of it as an optimization problem where I'm balancing my ability to achieve financial independence with enjoying life through occasional discretionary spending. I love my 335i. I find tremendous satisfaction in driving it even 8 years later, and so I'm in no hurry to upgrade soon, nor am I eager to purchase a brand new vehicle moving forward - at least in the interim.

TLDR You can afford it if you can pay for it and still reach your financial goals (DUH!)

By the way that song is chill as fuck!

[John 070]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

I'm honestly a neophyte when it comes to finance. All of my finance education comes from several engineering economics classes I had to take in undergrad plus the usual lessons in frugality that come with growing up in an Asian household (IIRC you are also asian so I'm sure you can relate!)

There are so many "rules of thumb" out there for what it takes to "afford" a car and quite honestly I think they're all extremely arbitrary and overly simplified.

The more nuanced way I look at things is to ask myself the question "Will this purchase compromise my ability to reach my net worth milestones by age 40, 50, 60, and beyond?" If the answer is "no," then I can afford it. If the answer is "yes," then I can't afford whatever it is I'm trying to buy.

Those net worth milestones are going to be extremely individualized. There are people out there who don't particularly care about amassing great wealth for its own sake. There are others who have the luxury of guaranteed pensions that, in conjunction with social security, will replace most if not all of their income in perpetuity irrespective of dividend income and realized capital gains from their brokerage accounts.

For me, I value the ability of my brokerage/retirement accounts to provide passive income through dividends and realized capital gains that cover 100%+ of my spending as early as possible. It's a game to me, and quick financial independence is the goal even though I have no intentions on retiring early.

In order to do that, I always view sufficiently large purchases (greater than, say, $5000) in terms of future value.

I'm a 25 year old 3rd year medical student with 0 (current) income and a net worth slightly north of $100k (thanks to several paid internships in reservoir and process engineering at exxon and shell during undergraduate summers, being extremely lucky with a couple of "big bets" in the stock market, and having my extremely generous parents finance everything in my life from tuition to housing to my current vehicle and beyond).

That $100k and change is currently allocated 100% in an ETF that tracks the S&P500. Could I sell my stock and purchase an M4 right now? Sure. Would that be colossally stupid? Absolutely.

That $100k is worth more like $500k-$1M by the time I'm 55, assuming an average compound annual growth rate of 5-7%. So when I ask myself the question do I want to spend $80k on an M4 right now, I'm really asking myself the question do I want to spend upwards of $1M in 2046 dollars on a god damned vehicle and how will that affect my ability to achieve the net worth I want to achieve by age 55.

After 4th year, I'll be in residency/fellowship for 3-8 years making $50k-$60k per year. After that, who knows. But the reason why I say I won't be able to afford an M car for 30 years is simply because the net worth milestone I want to hit by age 55 is sufficiently high. It doesn't have to be as high as it is, but it's sufficiently high to where it would be prudent for me to "make do" with driving my current vehicle into the ground and purchase used, reliable, entry level luxury vehicles for the next couple of decades.

Why entry level luxury vehicles and not something like a used civic or toyota corolla? Well, it goes back finding that right balance. I guess you can think of it as an optimization problem where I'm balancing my ability to achieve financial independence with enjoying life through occasional discretionary spending. I love my 335i. I find tremendous satisfaction in driving it even 8 years later, and so I'm in no hurry to upgrade soon, nor am I eager to purchase a brand new vehicle moving forward - at least in the interim.

TLDR You can afford it if you can pay for it and still reach your financial goals (DUH!)

By the way that song is chill as fuck!

Thanks for sharing a bit about yourself. Not kissing your *** but you sound like you've got a pretty good head on your shoulders!

10 yrs. ago I had a friend like you, a resident. He was struggling, never could hang out....we hung out as couples so it was always his wife, not him. Believe me, he got his reward for all that hard work in the end. Rich? No. Just a respectable field and much above avg. income.

But again, it all goes back to, even if you're wealthy, I don't know why you would not want 5% off everything you spend on gas, when you don't have to do anything other than to remember to use card A. If you can get 10% off your cable bill for using AMEX in Dec. and Jan., why wouldn't you just take it? It all adds up.

There have been many times I've said to myself, when my wife was working, our income is more than 2X the median in our town. Yet materially we don't seem to have as much. doing the math, I believe the difference is savings.

I'll say it again, everyone should max out a 401k and if not phased out, do the ROTH as well. Wouldn't surprise me if even high earners don't always do it. I think there is definitely an element today where peeps are planning to leave $0 to heirs and $0 to charity, and something to the IRS. Completely contrary to what our parents taught us and what our grandparents did.

[David70]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

I'm honestly a neophyte when it comes to finance. All of my finance education comes from several engineering economics classes I had to take in undergrad plus the usual lessons in frugality that come with growing up in an Asian household (IIRC you are also asian so I'm sure you can relate!)

There are so many "rules of thumb" out there for what it takes to "afford" a car and quite honestly I think they're all extremely arbitrary and overly simplified.

TLDR You can afford it if you can pay for it and still reach your financial goals (DUH!)

By the way that song is chill as fuck! .........

I agree almost completely with the above. When trying to figure out if you can afford something the first question I would have is "what are your medium to long term goals?".

My goal is to have the ability (whether I decide to or not) to retire at 53 and based on this I can't afford a new M4. Someone else could have different goal or want to retire at 65 and could be completely fine with it.

My wife and I also go on pretty expensive vacations, deciding to cut these out would let me move up in the car I buy so again, depends on my goals and what I want to do.

That $100k is worth more like $500k-$1M by the time I'm 55, assuming an average compound annual growth rate of 5-7%. So when I ask myself the question do I want to spend $80k on an M4 right now, I'm really asking myself the question do I want to spend upwards of $1M in 2046 dollars

Out of all of your numbers I only see this as an issue, $80k invested at 5-7% over 29 years isn't $1m, but instead $340k - $605k, then you have to pay tax on the gains so the choice is still a lot of money but not the $80k now or $1m in 2046.

Again, all good information and I think you have it figured out.

[BayMoWe335]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

I'm honestly a neophyte when it comes to finance. All of my finance education comes from several engineering economics classes I had to take in undergrad plus the usual lessons in frugality that come with growing up in an Asian household (IIRC you are also asian so I'm sure you can relate!)

There are so many "rules of thumb" out there for what it takes to "afford" a car and quite honestly I think they're all extremely arbitrary and overly simplified.

The more nuanced way I look at things is to ask myself the question "Will this purchase compromise my ability to reach my net worth milestones by age 40, 50, 60, and beyond?" If the answer is "no," then I can afford it. If the answer is "yes," then I can't afford whatever it is I'm trying to buy.

Those net worth milestones are going to be extremely individualized. There are people out there who don't particularly care about amassing great wealth for its own sake. There are others who have the luxury of guaranteed pensions that, in conjunction with social security, will replace most if not all of their income in perpetuity irrespective of dividend income and realized capital gains from their brokerage accounts.

For me, I value the ability of my brokerage/retirement accounts to provide passive income through dividends and realized capital gains that cover 100%+ of my spending as early as possible. It's a game to me, and quick financial independence is the goal even though I have no intentions on retiring early.

In order to do that, I always view sufficiently large purchases (greater than, say, $5000) in terms of future value.

I'm a 25 year old 3rd year medical student with 0 (current) income and a net worth slightly north of $100k (thanks to several paid internships in reservoir and process engineering at exxon and shell during undergraduate summers, being extremely lucky with a couple of "big bets" in the stock market, and having my extremely generous parents finance everything in my life from tuition to housing to my current vehicle and beyond).

That $100k and change is currently allocated 100% in an ETF that tracks the S&P500. Could I sell my stock and purchase an M4 right now? Sure. Would that be colossally stupid? Absolutely.

That $100k is worth more like $500k-$1M by the time I'm 55, assuming an average compound annual growth rate of 5-7%. So when I ask myself the question do I want to spend $80k on an M4 right now, I'm really asking myself the question do I want to spend upwards of $1M in 2046 dollars on a god damned vehicle and how will that affect my ability to achieve the net worth I want to achieve by age 55.

After 4th year, I'll be in residency/fellowship for 3-8 years making $50k-$60k per year. After that, who knows. But the reason why I say I won't be able to afford an M car for 30 years is simply because the net worth milestone I want to hit by age 55 is sufficiently high. It doesn't have to be as high as it is, but it's sufficiently high to where it would be prudent for me to "make do" with driving my current vehicle into the ground and purchase used, reliable, entry level luxury vehicles for the next couple of decades.

Why entry level luxury vehicles and not something like a used civic or toyota corolla? Well, it goes back finding that right balance. I guess you can think of it as an optimization problem where I'm balancing my ability to achieve financial independence with enjoying life through occasional discretionary spending. I love my 335i. I find tremendous satisfaction in driving it even 8 years later, and so I'm in no hurry to upgrade soon, nor am I eager to purchase a brand new vehicle moving forward - at least in the interim.

TLDR You can afford it if you can pay for it and still reach your financial goals (DUH!)

By the way that song is chill as fuck!

You'll do better than 5-7% if you don't touch the money and reinvest the dividends for 30 years. S&P 500 will do about 8.5-9%..maybe closer to 10% if you're lucky. Some of your finance is wrong, but you definitely have the right thought process.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

Read what I posted in the original post. I mention playing the high credit score game. This game is where you need to squeeze every aspect of credit building.



When I saw a drop in my credit score, the reporting agency had one bad thing to say. It said what I had screen shotted. I used multiple credit cards and it went back up past what it was before. I have been there and have played that game.

Maybe the third time's a charm (See where it says marginal areas, not as significant - thats the reason I mention people playing the high credit score game)

I like seeing zero balances on my credit cards and I tend to try and pay them off completely earch month (with limited success ). Does this suggest that I should not be doing that, and have a small balance on each card? I currently have 3 cards with zero and 2 cards with balances (personal and business).

[infamousdiz]

We spend every dollar we make, sure is fun though, fuck it , you can always earn more money. Also pay 2k a month in daycare/school for the kids. Put away around 650 a week in retirement but that's low for 2 people (given our discretionary income)

[jmg]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

After a certain point, credit scores are pretty useless. Maybe if you are on the low side of an income requirement, they may loan you the money? I have no idea.

True. Decent Credit Score and a high income will get you the best rates. It's more of a game at this point, ahah.

[dreamingat30fps]

Didn't read this whole thread, anyone know card that does more than 2% on everything? I have the capital one card with 2% on everything with no limits. Use it for my and so far its been great.

[PoorLurker]

Originally Posted by jmg

I like seeing zero balances on my credit cards and I tend to try and pay them off completely earch month (with limited success ). Does this suggest that I should not be doing that, and have a small balance on each card? I currently have 3 cards with zero and 2 cards with balances (personal and business).

Pay them off every month.

I was suggesting to use each card every month and for some cards this is a minimal purchase. (and this is really only for people who are going for the high credit score game as it was stated tier 1 is solid enough for low interest loans)

For example, if I go to a local bakery that only takes Visa, I will pay $5 for my bread/drink using my rarely used visa. Larger purchases like restaurants, etc. I put those on a card that has better rewards.

I received a credit card about 15 years ago. The card does not currently have a great reward system. However, it costs nothing and has a solid credit line available, so I keep the card.

The "penalty" against me was that I only used one of my credit cards for an extended period of time without using any of the others.

For most people, it doesn't matter, however, I compete against my wife with credit scores so the 1-5% rewards I lose for the $5 purchase at the bakery is worth it if it means I can beat my wife.

(People giving us loans probably think we are idiots when we trash talk about how one person sucks compared to the other, haha She's better than me at everything so I have to win where I can, right...)

Back to your question - I would suggest never carrying a balance especially when APRs are like 15% and rewards being at 5% max. Maybe there are some tricks that can massage carrying a balance to be more beneficial but


edit: Just saw your comment about it being a game. So yes, try to not carry a balance. I do not if it's proven, but I make like two payments per month. My bill is usually due at the beginning of the month, however, my credit card FICO score states, "On 12/17, your credit score is..." So I want to make sure that I have a limited amount of money on that card for whenever that calculator calculates my score. This also helps with never missing a payment, haha.

[PoorLurker]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

TLDR You can afford it if you can pay for it and still reach your financial goals (DUH!)

By the way that song is chill as fuck!

Cool! Thanks for the post! (I read the long version, btw)

Financial Independence and Early Retirement are message boards that I also lurk.

It can't hurt knowing more about financial independence and seeing the perspective of those who wish to retire early, right?

Even if I don't care to strive for early FI and RE, their perspective can influence me in certain ways for the positive. I also like going to forums where people are much looser with their money.

Looking at polar opposites gives me a great opportunity to try to get a better idea where my personal philosophy lies. Like having friends who are frugal and friends who spent tomorrow's paycheck last week. Gives you the opportunity to learn from both.

I do wish I had more friends who spend lavishly though. It would make it easier to justify large purchases for myself.


I thoroughly enjoy hearing people's philosophies on many things. I remember seeing you write a post earlier regarding finances so I figured I would ask.

[BMW F22]

Well, we all knew it was going to happen. 5.5 months after it was introduced, Chase Reserve will end it 100k bonus this Jan 11th! Going forward it will be 50k only.

http://thepointsguy.com/2017/01/chas...tchance-m-ll-a

[David70]

Originally Posted by jmg

I like seeing zero balances on my credit cards and I tend to try and pay them off completely earch month (with limited success ). Does this suggest that I should not be doing that, and have a small balance on each card? I currently have 3 cards with zero and 2 cards with balances (personal and business).

Pay them off each month, you don't have to buy good credit.

[bkM3]

Originally Posted by David70

I got the Chase Sapphire Reserve - cost $450 but you get $300 back in travel credit, then they had a sign up bonus of 100k points if you spent $4k in 3 months. Wife and I are headed to Europe in the Spring and I think the 100k points will get us $1500 in flights, basically one of the two round trips needed so the $150 investment will hopefully be worth $1500. If it works out will be a great investment.

After the 1st year is up and needing another $150, without the sign up bonus I will probably switch cards again.

Wife uses this card as her work credit card, then we have the Sheraton Amex which is really good for hotel point rewards (Sheraton, Westin, W, others) and also gets me "Gold" at their properties and now Mariott also. Costco card because we need a general use Visa and this is only used when needed or for Costco and gas purchases (4% off).

remember, you get $300 per calendar year so if you got it in 2016 you can get it again now so you actually make $150 profit on the card in the first year

also, please look into transferring your points to airline partners such as flying blue, united, singapore, etc for your flights to europe 95% you will get more value than 1.5 cents per point this way. check out the blogs on boardingarea.com and the points guy for pointers. way too much info for me post here