[Sales@Evolve]

Hi Needforspeed,

I can assure you the Dyno Dynamics measures horsepower. I too thought it measured torque but soon found this was not the case.

Thanks
Sal

[Ant397]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Hi Ant,


no-one advised me to take my car to you?!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...5d#post1880254

Originally Posted by mikem

Carl, maybe these people can help with your search to beat a CSL ?

Their manual 330d is quicker than a 335d.

http://antandpete.vault5.com/tuning....TotalOutput=92

Originally Posted by mikem

I did Carl but someone else replied that they hadn`t got on too well with their own 335d.

It wasnt because we hadnt got on too well with our 335d...

We where on a tight schedule and with the car not producing standard power in the first place, we sent it back to BMW; they ordered and replaced parts only for us to get it back and a different fault reared its head so we sent it back again. It took over 6 weeks to fix the problems, with it being in BMW for over 4 weeks. It was an unstable car to start tuning in the first place, then yet more issues transpired with it.

It had to go. As I say after so many cars, I finally got a bad one.

As we could not be sure it would stay working on the 2007 Carbon Black Rally that was 1 month away, we where out of time with it, so we bought a CSL instead for the job.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by M5Pilot

Hi Needforspeed,

I can assure you the Dyno Dynamics measures horsepower. I too thought it measured torque but soon found this was not the case.

Thanks
Sal

OK - the Dyno Dynamics products are 'sustained load' dynamometers as opposed to 'acceleration' dynamometers where the vehicle accelerates the rollers.

The acceleration dynamometers are calculating horsepower and torque based on the time taken to accelerate the roller from one speed to another.

Sustained load dynamometers directly measure both torque and rpm, you can argue that this is a direct measurement of horsepower, but in effect it's not. It's a direct measurement of 2 variables which together TELL you the horsepower.

Still, the main point is that if the RPM measurement is wrong, because of a calibration error, this will also make the horsepower wrong - NOT the torque.

This is a really fine point and I am only making it because your business relies on people like me having absolute faith in your expertise in these things. I'm sure you know your stuff, but I would be happier if you were EXACTLY right on this point as well

I'm pretty sure that I have this right, but if not please let me know.

[dxb335d]

To be honest Ant, i totally forgot about that post and your company. The only ones i knew about when i chose DMS were

CAA
E-maps
Chipped-UK
and DMS.

Knew of various plug in type devices which i did not want to use.

[e-maps]

Originally Posted by Ant397

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...5d#post1880254





It wasnt because we hadnt got on too well with our 335d...

We where on a tight schedule and with the car not producing standard power in the first place, we sent it back to BMW; they ordered and replaced parts only for us to get it back and a different fault reared its head so we sent it back again. It took over 6 weeks to fix the problems, with it being in BMW for over 4 weeks. It was an unstable car to start tuning in the first place, then yet more issues transpired with it.

It had to go. As I say after so many cars, I finally got a bad one.

As we could not be sure it would stay working on the 2007 Carbon Black Rally that was 1 month away, we where out of time with it, so we bought a CSL instead for the job.

Looks like you had a Friday afternoon car there. I only asked as I thought you might have some issue with the car as they can be tricky to program, shame you didnt even get chance too remap it

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

OK - the Dyno Dynamics products are 'sustained load' dynamometers as opposed to 'acceleration' dynamometers where the vehicle accelerates the rollers.

The acceleration dynamometers are calculating horsepower and torque based on the time taken to accelerate the roller from one speed to another.

Sustained load dynamometers directly measure both torque and rpm, you can argue that this is a direct measurement of horsepower, but in effect it's not. It's a direct measurement of 2 variables which together TELL you the horsepower.

Still, the main point is that if the RPM measurement is wrong, because of a calibration error, this will also make the horsepower wrong - NOT the torque.

This is a really fine point and I am only making it because your business relies on people like me having absolute faith in your expertise in these things. I'm sure you know your stuff, but I would be happier if you were EXACTLY right on this point as well

I'm pretty sure that I have this right, but if not please let me know.

One question - did all the intelligent car modders all end up on this forum?

Dyno Dynamics:

The DS450 is an eddie current dyno. It can hold and apply load.

This dyno 100% measure BHP.

Example -

My M5 is run on the dyno and makes 270 bhp and I incorrectly enter the wrong rpm. I rev to 7000 rpm on tacho but on the dyno it's showing 6000rpm.

My torque reading is 320lb.ft

I then correctly calibrate it and the dyno and dyno an tacho show to be equal.

More BHP is still 270 but my torque has dropped to 290 odd lb.ft.

This little experiment clearly shows that the dyno is measuring horsepower.

Also, we cannot argue with the manufacturer - they have made it clear that their dyno measures horsepower.

Their reasoning is simple - we don't want a system where people can give false horsepower.

I knew, as you do now, how important it is to get the RPM calculation correct from when I was a consumer and had my car on dyno's. To me it's not a fine point. It's the single most important factor of them all.

After this is tyre pressures and the placement of the intake temperature probe.

Once we know the intake probe is correctly placed we make sure the intake temps are stabalised after turning on the fan. No point running a car which has an intake temp of 50 degrees when we know we can get it within 5 degrees of ambient which is usually around 0- 10 degrees this time of year. Running a heatsoaked car is just a useless exercise.

Operating a dyno correctly takes alot of attention to detail and can be extremely pain staking with certain cars.

We see a dyno session as a scientfic experiement with a multitude of variables which we need to control as much as we can.

I could write an essay on how to dyno correctly!

Unfortunately there are not many dyno operators who do things the way we do. For us the dyno is not a marketing tool but something we use properly and to it's full potential. We pride ourselves on the fact that people turst our figures.

The other place that I can know how to use their dyno to the same level is Surrey Rolling Road.

We got alot of coaching from Charlie and alot of tips. He is probably the most well respected dyno centre in the country.

If you'd like to confirm any of the above with Dyno Dynamics please speak to Mike Gurney (DD UK sales).

Many Thanks
Sal

[NFS]

Originally Posted by M5Pilot

My M5 is run on the dyno and makes 270 bhp and I incorrectly enter the wrong rpm. I rev to 7000 rpm on tacho but on the dyno it's showing 6000rpm.

My torque reading is 320lb.ft

I then correctly calibrate it and the dyno and dyno an tacho show to be equal.

More BHP is still 270 but my torque has dropped to 290 odd lb.ft.

This little experiment clearly shows that the dyno is measuring horsepower.

Given that you own one of these things and I don't I'm going to take your word for it.

It clearly is measuring horsepower and deriving the torque if it operates in this way.

[Sales@Evolve]

My grammer and spelling are serioulsy suffering.....I can't believe I wrote some of that the way I did!

Anyway, I'm glad we have cleared that up.

Thanks
Sal

[Evil Diesel]

Also if you run a set of cars on the rollers on the same day, same settings and same preparation and set up then any inherent errors in the machine don't really matter and a true picture of the cars comparative performance can be gained.

[mikem]

As far as I`m concerned R/R figures can always be fudged and if somebody says its not possible to cheat the figures, then I`m sorry but I don`t beleive them.

[Steve A]

Originally Posted by mikem

As far as I`m concerned R/R figures can always be fudged and if somebody says its not possible to cheat the figures, then I`m sorry but I don`t beleive them.

Always the cynic

[Dr.Crap]

Surely the only way to resolve this would be for 3-4 cars with different maps to meet up and for all the owners to drive all of them.

I doubt any ECU mapper would be up for this as only 1 out of 4 would see an increase in their business and the rest would lose out. Still if you're confident in your product.......

At the end of the day figures are just figures for £400-£800 if you're happy with what you paid for then so be it. Its not a lot of money if you consider the relative gains - even if they are exaggerated - and the base price of the car. Well maybe £800 is

[Dr.Crap]

Off work today so gonna find myself a nice little B-road

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Dr.Crap

Surely the only way to resolve this would be for 3-4 cars with different maps to meet up and for all the owners to drive all of them.

I don't think even that would lead to a consensus.

What we need to do is get some remapped 335d's and have The Stig drive them round the top gear track.

Does anyone have Jeremy Clarkson's email address?

[Steve A]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I don't think even that would lead to a consensus.

What we need to do is get some remapped 335d's and have The Stig drive them round the top gear track.

Does anyone have Jeremy Clarkson's email address?

curlywiggedpatronising****@bbc.co.uk

[Dr.Crap]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

I don't think even that would lead to a consensus.

What we need to do is get some remapped 335d's and have The Stig drive them round the top gear track.

Does anyone have Jeremy Clarkson's email address?

I guess people might not agree, still its about how the owners feel about the remap not really how fast it is outright in the hands of a pro

If Jezza did a feature on this their would be a Nazi joke every 2 minutes

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by Dr.Crap

I doubt any ECU mapper would be up for this as only 1 out of 4 would see an increase in their business and the rest would lose out. Still if you're confident in your product.......

Not necessarily ... Horses for courses. I'm sure Carlos' preferences differ from what I want. If there is a balance between a single headline out-and-out power figure or refinement of delivery (feel, reliability, flexibilty, NVH, smooth & linear, MPG), there would still be room for alternatives.

Having a map that is a couple of BHP/Torque more (for Pub bragging rites) than an alternative map but at the cost of this overall driveabilty/refinement is not something I would personally be interested in. Likewise, I am not interested in 1/4 mile drag race/circuit figures as I NEVER EVER drive there. Being a demon on the race track means nothing if it grumbles when I go to the shops.

As you say, driving them back to back on the road would be the real clincher.

This thread has developed. Far more interesting nuggets of information surfacing now.

D.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Dr.Crap

Surely the only way to resolve this would be for 3-4 cars with different maps to meet up and for all the owners to drive all of them.

I doubt any ECU mapper would be up for this as only 1 out of 4 would see an increase in their business and the rest would lose out. Still if you're confident in your product.......

At the end of the day figures are just figures for £400-£800 if you're happy with what you paid for then so be it. Its not a lot of money if you consider the relative gains - even if they are exaggerated - and the base price of the car. Well maybe £800 is

I know what my car was capable stock, and i know what its capable of now. The improvement is quite significant.

Its not really alot of money for relative gains.

Its a turbo car and good gains have been achieved.

On an N/A car to get this sort of gains you would be talking ££££, full exhausts at approx 1500 quid, High lift etc cams at approx 800+quid etc. You get my drift.

[e-maps]

Originally Posted by Dr.Crap

Surely the only way to resolve this would be for 3-4 cars with different maps to meet up and for all the owners to drive all of them.

This is what I was going to suggest until it turned into "tuner wars"

I was going to hire Bruntingthorpre for 1/2 a day as I have a contact there and can get a good price. The idea was to get a few cars together, stock, remapped and do some testing. 0-60, 1/4 mile ect ect using a G Tec device. The runway part of Brunty is long enough to test top speed and wide enough to run 5 cars side by side. Once finshed a few blasts round the track, maybe some drifting and doughnuts if anyone was brave enough

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by e-maps

This is what I was going to suggest until it turned into "tuner wars"

I was going to hire Bruntingthorpre for 1/2 a day as I have a contact there and can get a good price. The idea was to get a few cars together, stock, remapped and do some testing. 0-60, 1/4 mile ect ect using a G Tec device. The runway part of Brunty is long enough to test top speed and wide enough to run 5 cars side by side. Once finshed a few blasts round the track, maybe some drifting and doughnuts if anyone was brave enough

Make it with FIA approved timing gear, NOW THAT would be good.

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by mikem

As far as I`m concerned R/R figures can always be fudged and if somebody says its not possible to cheat the figures, then I`m sorry but I don`t beleive them.

There is one way on a dyno dynamics and one way only. However, any tuner brave or stupid enough to exploit this method will get caught out quite easily.

The information is printed on the graph itself.

All Dyno Dynamics print outs in shoot out mode give the following information:
(Old software has this at the bottom of the print out and new software has it in the green grid at the bottom right hand side):

BP = Barometric Pressure
RH = Relative Humidity
AT = Atmospheric Temperature
IT = Intake Temperature
RR = Run Rate
Tyre Pressure
Gear Used

BP and RH cannot be altered, the input to the software is through a weather station.

The run rate is specific to a shoot out mode, in the case of 335d and 335i we would use shoot 6F (6 cylinder forced induction).

Now, the IT and AT. This is where people need to keep an eye out. This is where the fudge can take place.

The intake probe is usually placed inside the airbox making sure the probe is not touching any surface.

The dyno software has air temperature correction. If the IT and AT are within 10 -15 degrees of each other then you know there is no problem. We can usually get within 5 degrees as our fan very powerful.
If however, you see a graph with IT of say 50 and AT of 8 then you know something ain't right here. Even 40 is too high but on some high powered turbo cars with open cone filters that is the true intake temp.
Two possibilities:

1) The intake system is heat soaked and the operator has not allowed the intake temps to stabalise after switching on the fan. In tihs case the intake temp will be very high but there will be doubt hanging over the dyno session.

2) The intake probe is in the right place but is touching something hot like the inner surface or the airbox.

3) The dyno operator has deliberatley placed the intake probe somewhere very hot (radiator) to trick the system and the software will over compensate and give a higher power figure.


Just to point out finally, the dyno dynamics machine does not use run down losses to calculate flywheel figures. Dyno's that use run down losses are open to massive abuse because all it takes is a gentle amount of pressure on the brake pedal during the coast down to distort the flywheel figure.

Point no 3 above is something we something we were fully trained about openly. There have been cases where we have remapped cars and the after remap figure has been stupidly high. On bringing up the intake temperature graph (the dyno also records intake temp such that you can see it on the graph) we clearly saw the intake temps were rising hugely with rpm. On investigation we saw that the intake probe had dislodged itself and had come out of the airbox in the path of hot air from the radiator.
We then have to do another dyno run for the correct figure.

These above points are something you will NOT find any many forums.

Dyno Dynamics went to alot of lengths to make their machines such that they are highly respected and trusted and also made all of the parameters clear to see on the graphs.

If you see a graph with none of the parameters then do NOT trust it and ask for the operator to post the same one with the parameters recorded on it. If that information is not there then they are clearly trying to hide something or their dyno is not in shoot our mode when the graphs were printed or converted into jpeg.

Other dyno's - there are some excellent machines out there but they can all be abused without anyone ever knowing.

Now......I'm hoping someone will pick up about the graph I posted up after reading the above I was expecting some of you analysts to pick up on this the moment I posted it!

First person to tell me gets a mars bar.

Thanks
Sal

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by e-maps

This is what I was going to suggest until it turned into "tuner wars"

I was going to hire Bruntingthorpre for 1/2 a day as I have a contact there and can get a good price. The idea was to get a few cars together, stock, remapped and do some testing. 0-60, 1/4 mile ect ect using a G Tec device. The runway part of Brunty is long enough to test top speed and wide enough to run 5 cars side by side. Once finshed a few blasts round the track, maybe some drifting and doughnuts if anyone was brave enough

Yes it is sad that this was nearly turned into a tuner war by yourself by coming out with 'my map is stronger' and suggesting other tuners use unsafe maps. My graph was put up to put the arguement of 'all maps are the same' to bed.

Hiring Bruntingthrope is a good idea. To do it properly we need proper timing equipment. G-Tec meters are ok but no one is going to take things seriously with this. It would be a very good day out though

Just to add. In a previous post you've said the best way to test a remap is by doing 0-60 and 0-100mph testing.
I kind of agree with you but this does have it's own problems.
We recently went to an event called Fighting Torque. This was a 3/4 mile drag race on an army airstrip (do a google search and you'll find more info).

During the day the ambient temperatures suddenly dropped and suddenly everyone started getting significantly better times.

The other thing was that when we had to cue to a long period of time our time was worse than when we didn't.

No one takes things like intake temperatures into account. This makes a huge difference.

If people want to do testing then alot of control systems need to be put into place.