[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

As many others have already pointed out in this 175+ post thread, the BMW Performance Center’s “Complete Release and Waiver of Liability, Assumption of Risk and Indemnity Agreement" is certainly fulfilling a vital function for BMW. It’s effectively screening and weeding out drivers who are overly anxious about crashing somebody else’s expensive car(s) on a track.

Those who’ve tracked and/or raced cars before know that such standard track waivers are required to be signed by participants before being allowed on any race track. Participants must also sign additional waivers that are required by their sanctioning body and/or event organizer. Many of these waivers are required to be signed daily by the participant. Not only are drivers responsible for damages to their car, but also for track damage, and maybe even the other guy's car that they hit too. That’s just the way it is…

Are you seriously asserting that the function of that document is to screen anxious drivers?

Again (for the hundredth time) I signed the thing because, frankly, I'm a cowboy. It's not the scariest document I've ever signed. Not by a long shot. I get it that other people have different risk profiles though.

The glaring point that you're missing is that the assumption of liability isn't the end of it. The BMW form causes the signer to explicitly claim that they are, in fact, insured. So it's not like your standard event waiver. This goes a step further. You're not only taking on the liability risk, but you're asserting something completely untrue and putting your signature on it. It has been discussed (ad nauseum) that it is extremely difficult (maybe impossible) to even obtain the type of insurance you're asserting you have on the form.

This whole thing is getting completely absurd. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the number of people who would show up and use this as an opportunity to pound their chest and proclaim themselves big risk takers. There's no shortage of that dumb shit in the business world either.

[Doctor///M]

For all the great points that have been brought up in this thread, the purpose of the OP is to inform people who assume that their (premium) registration dollars covers just about anything, even when things go wrong.

The registrant can then opt to seek out specific information from personnel at the Performance Centers if they so desire.

There is no doubt that these schools are top notch and both professionally and safely executed.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Are you seriously asserting that the function of that document is to screen anxious drivers?

As has been stated by MULTIPLE accounts, and also my own personal account of other, similar events...

Yes, that's exactly what that document does. Because even when sh*t hits the fan, the organizers rarely, if EVER, ask the driver to assume that responsibility. The document merely puts in the driver's head the possibility of them having to assume that liability when sh*t hits the fan.

Therefore, for people like you, who are still parsing the so-called "finer points," it's moot. Don't sign it. Don't take the class. BMW will refund you. The document has done it's job. For those that DO sign it, follows all of BMW's rules, and stuff happens and you put a new M5 into the wall? They'll bring you the keys to another M5 and make sure you enjoy the weekend. For those that sign it, and breaks every rule they put before you under the sun, and for whatever reason BMW hasn't kicked your @ss off the premises yet, and you do damage to the private facilities that BMW rented for the event? You bet your sweet @ss that BMW is going to use the document to make YOU pay for the damages.

But you deserved to for being a douche and asshat at the event. The waiver is both a screener and a safety blanket. Be a see-you-next-tuesday and do stuff that is intentionally and willfully negligent to damage property? The waiver covers BMW. Afraid you're going to damage property even before you set foot on said property? Don't sign it, go home. It's done it's job.

[CSBM5]

Again, BY FAR the biggest risk at any event where you do not have liability coverage through your own policy (or in the case of NC policies very limited liability coverage) is you incurring personal injury liability for another person(s) at the event. Hence the reason way back on page one I stressed for people to carefully review their policy since policies are state-specific and not company specific in terms of allowable coverage, and understand exactly what your legal obligations will be in case the unthinkable happens, and you're at fault. Yes BMW would be sued in that case also (deep pockets), but don't expect them to shield you in any way (not that they could anyway).

Damaging BMW's cars or property are trivial (even if they charged you for it which they don't unless you perform an intentional/criminal act of some sort) compared to the injury/death liability claim. The fact that a defendant signed a document stating they have coverage when most all of them do not would be an interesting side show I'm sure.

Hopefully something positive will come out of pending personal injury lawsuits in progress now in relation to the NC insurance policy change, but I imagine any outcome is years away.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Again, BY FAR the biggest risk at any event where you do not have liability coverage through your own policy (or in the case of NC policies very limited liability coverage) is you incurring personal injury liability for another person(s) at the event. Hence the reason way back on page one I stressed for people to carefully review their policy since policies are state-specific and not company specific in terms of allowable coverage, and understand exactly what your legal obligations will be in case the unthinkable happens, and you're at fault. Yes BMW would be sued in that case also (deep pockets), but don't expect them to shield you in any way (not that they could anyway).

Damaging BMW's cars or property are trivial (even if they charged you for it which they don't unless you perform an intentional/criminal act of some sort) compared to the injury/death liability claim. The fact that a defendant signed a document stating they have coverage when most all of them do not would be an interesting side show I'm sure.

Hopefully something positive will come out of pending personal injury lawsuits in progress now in relation to the NC insurance policy change, but I imagine any outcome is years away.

Spoken like a true category 1 person the event is going to screen out.

Have you actually attended the event? Driven the course? You do NOT get to take a passenger with you on course, at least not without a professional BMW instructor sitting in the passenger seat. If you do MANAGE to inflict personal injury on a non-BMW staffer, you have done some serious negligent stuff WILLFULLY to have been able to inflict said personal injury.

Seriously, almost all the exercises that YOU can potentially injure someone in, you are in the car BY YOURSELF. If you're not in the car by yourself, either you're not driving, or you are under strict, watchful eyes of the in-car instructor. If you still managed to hurt someone, you would have done so absolutely willfully and absolutely negligently, and at that point, you SHOULD assume responsibility for said damages.

You can keep parsing it all you want. That waiver does exactly as I have described. If you're so afraid that some sh*t will happen when you're there, don't go. Don't sign it. The waiver has done its job as a screener. And if the waiver should have kicked in? You would have done some pretty f**ked up, personally, willfully, NEGLIGENT sh*t for BMW to want to pursue it. Drive like you're playing Grand Theft Auto 2016 and try to mow down pedestrians and bystanders? WAIVER. Drive like how BMW has structured and instructed you, within their rules and confines? No way in hell will you EVER be able to inflict any personal injury on others.

What most of you category 1 that's been screened out will NEVER realize, is the way BMW runs these events, everything you do once you set foot on campus is CONTROLLED to the utmost to ensure everyone's safety without you seeing or knowing it. There are hundreds of sets of eyes on you while you're on course. The courses are controlled in a way that makes it virtually impossible for you to crash and hurt someone. All the instructors are hand selected and trained to keep all situations under their full control. None of this stuff is as mickey-mouse as you all seem to think it is.

The chances of you walking out and get struck by lightning at the facility is infinitely greater than the actual chance you'll be given the reigns of the car enough to hurt someone besides yourself. Are you guys going to try and secure lightning strike policies while you're attending the event too?

















Actually, something looked very stupid and suspicious, so I re-read the original post by the Roundel reader, and he's a f**king moron.

I'm 99.9% certain that you have to carry personal and vehicle damage liability insurance in order to register a car in all 50 states, or at least in California, have a bonded, $35,000 deposit with DMV. If you choose to use a $35,000 bond to secure the registration for your vehicle, then NO you do not have personal and vehicle damage liability insurance. But then, you probably shouldn't sign the waiver. You SHOULD go home.

But just as in ANY and all situation involving a rental car, if you were to get into an accident in said rental, your own personal vehicle and liability insurance would kick in even if "it's not your car." So if you own a registered vehicle, you would have satisfied the waiver requirement. Should SOMETHING happen that requires BMW to pursue damages, they would ask to be compensated by your own car owner's policy.

The truly "grey" area of this worth parsing, is the fact that majority of auto insurance policies out there exclude "surfaces used for competition." THAT is really what's worth discussing here, not the actual waiver requiring you to have insurance policy.

Seriously though. Don't go. It's not for you, if you REALLY think that you'll end up Porsche Carrera GT someone and that BMW is going to go after you for it.

[Mandi90TT]

Originally Posted by The HACK

blah blah blah

Wow, every post you make exposes yourself as that much more of a douche.

And for the record, I do track my cars, and understand the risk involved.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Spoken like a true category 1 person the event is going to screen out.

Have you actually attended the event? Driven the course? You do NOT get to take a passenger with you on course, at least not without a professional BMW instructor sitting in the passenger seat. If you do MANAGE to inflict personal injury on a non-BMW staffer, you have done some serious negligent stuff WILLFULLY to have been able to inflict said personal injury.

Seriously, almost all the exercises that YOU can potentially injure someone in, you are in the car BY YOURSELF. If you're not in the car by yourself, either you're not driving, or you are under strict, watchful eyes of the in-car instructor. If you still managed to hurt someone, you would have done so absolutely willfully and absolutely negligently, and at that point, you SHOULD assume responsibility for said damages.

You can keep parsing it all you want. That waiver does exactly as I have described. If you're so afraid that some sh*t will happen when you're there, don't go. Don't sign it. The waiver has done its job as a screener. And if the waiver should have kicked in? You would have done some pretty f**ked up, personally, willfully, NEGLIGENT sh*t for BMW to want to pursue it. Drive like you're playing Grand Theft Auto 2016 and try to mow down pedestrians and bystanders? WAIVER. Drive like how BMW has structured and instructed you, within their rules and confines? No way in hell will you EVER be able to inflict any personal injury on others.

What most of you category 1 that's been screened out will NEVER realize, is the way BMW runs these events, everything you do once you set foot on campus is CONTROLLED to the utmost to ensure everyone's safety without you seeing or knowing it. There are hundreds of sets of eyes on you while you're on course. The courses are controlled in a way that makes it virtually impossible for you to crash and hurt someone. All the instructors are hand selected and trained to keep all situations under their full control. None of this stuff is as mickey-mouse as you all seem to think it is.

The chances of you walking out and get struck by lightning at the facility is infinitely greater than the actual chance you'll be given the reigns of the car enough to hurt someone besides yourself. Are you guys going to try and secure lightning strike policies while you're attending the event too?

















Actually, something looked very stupid and suspicious, so I re-read the original post by the Roundel reader, and he's a f**king moron.

I'm 99.9% certain that you have to carry personal and vehicle damage liability insurance in order to register a car in all 50 states, or at least in California, have a bonded, $35,000 deposit with DMV. If you choose to use a $35,000 bond to secure the registration for your vehicle, then NO you do not have personal and vehicle damage liability insurance. But then, you probably shouldn't sign the waiver. You SHOULD go home.

But just as in ANY and all situation involving a rental car, if you were to get into an accident in said rental, your own personal vehicle and liability insurance would kick in even if "it's not your car." So if you own a registered vehicle, you would have satisfied the waiver requirement. Should SOMETHING happen that requires BMW to pursue damages, they would ask to be compensated by your own car owner's policy.

The truly "grey" area of this worth parsing, is the fact that majority of auto insurance policies out there exclude "surfaces used for competition." THAT is really what's worth discussing here, not the actual waiver requiring you to have insurance policy.

Seriously though. Don't go. It's not for you, if you REALLY think that you'll end up Porsche Carrera GT someone and that BMW is going to go after you for it.

Tell me more about these "category 1" people. I'm intrigued.

While we're here, I've got a 6-year long civil litigation matter that you seem like just the guy to handle. What would you consider for a retainer? Please try to keep it reasonable, as I'm considering the alternative of simply copy/pasting your responses from this thread in to emails to plaintiff's counsel.

Also, you might want to check your math on those lightning strike probabilities, I keep trying to plug infinity in to my calculator and now I'm stuck with nothing but this smoldering piece of plastic.

[CSBM5]

Phenomenal misunderstanding of contract law and liability risk expressed here in this thread.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Actually, something looked very stupid and suspicious, so I re-read the original post by the Roundel reader, and he's a f**king moron.

I'm 99.9% certain that you have to carry personal and vehicle damage liability insurance in order to register a car in all 50 states, or at least in California, have a bonded, $35,000 deposit with DMV. If you choose to use a $35,000 bond to secure the registration for your vehicle, then NO you do not have personal and vehicle damage liability insurance. But then, you probably shouldn't sign the waiver. You SHOULD go home.

You would be 100% wrong if you simply "assume" that your auto policy covers you for a track event. Every state is different. If your policy is from NC, your maximum liability coverage is $30k per personal injury, $60k per accident for such an event. Irregardless of the fact that the policy itself has $500k liability coverage and you have a $5M umbrella policy -- that is all rendered useless by the language of the policy. Also realize that the way the policy (all policies in NC, like many states, are regulated and identical) is written, the simple act of incurring a liability event in the paddock is also covered only at the lower level.

For the record, as I stated earlier in this thread, yes I and both my kids have done events at the PC, I took delivery of my E39 there and did the track event, the three of us have also done the M-club day school twice, and additionally I've done six CCA autocross events at the PC (winning overall FTD each time, 3 in the M5 years ago, and 3 in the M3 recently). I've been autocrossing for over 40 years, and doing track events and time trials since 1981, instructing since 1985.

I've assumed the risks for over 40 years of participating in competitive events and track events. Such events haven't "screened me out" yet, but they're getting close.

None of the above matters with regard to the law and liability coverage. No matter how much one poster in this thread wants to express an emotional tirade and personally attack people, it will have no bearing on what people should understand their legal responsibilities to be when signing a waiver and participating (without or with very limited insurance coverage) at an event.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Phenomenal misunderstanding of contract law and liability risk expressed here in this thread.



You would be 100% wrong if you simply "assume" that your auto policy covers you for a track event. Every state is different. If your policy is from NC, your maximum liability coverage is $30k per personal injury, $60k per accident for such an event. Irregardless of the fact that the policy itself has $500k liability coverage and you have a $5M umbrella policy -- that is all rendered useless by the language of the policy. Also realize that the way the policy (all policies in NC, like many states, are regulated and identical) is written, the simple act of incurring a liability event in the paddock is also covered only at the lower level.

For the record, as I stated earlier in this thread, yes I and both my kids have done events at the PC, I took delivery of my E39 there and did the track event, the three of us have also done the M-club day school twice, and additionally I've done six CCA autocross events at the PC (winning overall FTD each time, 3 in the M5 years ago, and 3 in the M3 recently). I've been autocrossing for over 40 years, and doing track events and time trials since 1981, instructing since 1985.

I've assumed the risks for over 40 years of participating in competitive events and track events. Such events haven't "screened me out" yet, but they're getting close.

None of the above matters with regard to the law and liability coverage. No matter how much one poster in this thread wants to express an emotional tirade and personally attack people, it will have no bearing on what people should understand their legal responsibilities to be when signing a waiver and participating (without or with very limited insurance coverage) at an event.

Bro, you're just not man enough. Category 2, bro. Get on this guy's level!

[zx10guy]

Even though the terms of the waiver in my opinion are unacceptable especially with all the discussion about how the events are run, I will probably consider going to at least one of the schools at the PC. I still don't understand the unreasonable requirements to have insurance in place along with the blanket liability spelled out in the waiver in relation to the risk level everyone says is pretty low.

I decided to pull up a copy of the waiver I have to sign to attend the California Superbike School which has a partnership/sponsorship with BMW Motorrad. The waiver only goes over how riding a motorcycle is risky and while the school makes every attempt to provide a safe environment there is a chance you can get killed while participating. No where in the waiver does it state I have to carry any liability insurance as a pre-requisite to participate in the school. As I stated in a previous post on this thread, the school spells out your maximum monetary liability if you wreck one of the school's S1000RRs.

I won't belittle someone who raises concerns about this waiver form you're forced to sign to participate as I have concerns about it myself. And the assumption by the poster with narcissistic personality disorder that someone who raises a flag about the waiver somehow is a "Category 1" person (ie chicken $hit), tell me that while being on a track with no cage around you running at 150+ MPH with other riders running through that same stretch of track. Just this year, there were times I was running down the long straight at VIR on the North Course where I was in a pack going 3 to 4 wide over 130+ MPH approaching turn 1. Nothing gets scarier than having to check up at over 100 MPH when a rider unexpectedly slows dramatically in front of you when you have the majority of your braking done on one wheel.

So since I have concerns about this waiver, tell me how I don't have the balls to get on a track and act responsibly?

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

And the assumption by the poster with narcissistic personality disorder that someone who raises a flag about the waiver somehow is a "Category 1" person (ie chicken $hit), tell me that while being on a track with no cage around you running at 150+ MPH with other riders running through that same stretch of track.

Having run/organize events in the past many years ago, everyone was always on the lookout for the type of aggressive no-holes-bared personality type people since they are by far the highest risk for everyone on track and for the potential to continue using the track and insurance company for events. Black flags, discussions in pit row and in rare cases ejections from the track day all were necessary. Usually said person then blames the event organizers.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I keep trying to plug infinity in to my calculator and now I'm stuck with nothing but this smoldering piece of plastic.

Sig worthy.