[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I'm so impressed with Toyota/Lexus. Just a handful of months ago it looked like their F division was going to die. Now we are hearing the opposite, that a slew of new F models are on their way. This IS500 looks sick as hell and wasn't good enough for Akio Toyota to be a true F. I can't wait to see how good the next ISF will be.

Sat in the new IS yesterday....I still can't get over the dated interior, both in design and quality (lot of hard plastic).

I'm not nearly as enamored. Their original 1st gen IS in 1998 was exciting and a good start to rival the E46 in terms of driving dynamics. But it's been a steep downhill since.

The current IS is the 3rd gen that began in 2013. For context, the E9x was still in production in 2013! Toyota has been sitting on their laurels since then relying on refresh of old platforms, old engines, old technologies, etc. to keep their good reliability reputation going. That's all they got now, frankly.

The IS 500 exemplifies this - putting an old engine in an old platform and calling this combination "new." The same V8 engine has been used for years on the LS, LC, RC-F and now the IS. Their F brand is weak, having no unique engines and, compared with BMW's M, is short on every performance measure except weight. The proposed LC F could've been their showcase for new Lexus performance technology but they abandoned it last year citing COVID as the reason. If COVID can kill this, it must have been another feeble attempt to begin with.

[stein_325i]

According to the latest rumors the Twin-Turbo V8 may be back on for the upcoming LF SUV. If true this could possibly as be the reason why Lexus is teasing upcoming F products as using this engine for one vehicle wouldn't make too much sense.

Lexus LF Large SUV Delayed Due To Twin-Turbo V8 Development Issues?

[bkfastwagon]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I'm not nearly as enamored. Their original 1st gen IS in 1998 was exciting and a good start to rival the E46 in terms of driving dynamics. But it's been a steep downhill since.

The current IS is the 3rd gen that began in 2013. For context, the E9x was still in production in 2013! Toyota has been sitting on their laurels since then relying on refresh of old platforms, old engines, old technologies, etc. to keep their good reliability reputation going. That's all they got now, frankly.

The IS 500 exemplifies this - putting an old engine in an old platform and calling this combination "new." The same V8 engine has been used for years on the LS, LC, RC-F and now the IS. Their F brand is weak, having no unique engines and, compared with BMW's M, is short on every performance measure except weight. The proposed LC F could've been their showcase for new Lexus performance technology but they abandoned it last year citing COVID as the reason. If COVID can kill this, it must have been another feeble attempt to begin with.

I think you are underestimating the substantial portion of car enthusiasts who are not happy with the general direction of BMW and frankly the rest of the automotive ind. Cars are getting more complex (small displacement forced induction) and less driver oriented (self driving is the ultimate goal). Some companies understand this and to their credit they are listening to the enthusiasts. Porsche is an example- they went back to NA 6 cyl in their cayman/718 because that's what their customer wanted. IS 500 is not competing with the new M3. It's a classic 5L V8 matched with RWD in a compact sedan body. That's what the Lexus enthusiasts have been screaming for and they delivered. You could say manual transmission is badly outdated in 2021, but at least BMW understands its importance for the enthusiasts

[jpy1980]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I'm not nearly as enamored. Their original 1st gen IS in 1998 was exciting and a good start to rival the E46 in terms of driving dynamics. But it's been a steep downhill since.

The current IS is the 3rd gen that began in 2013. For context, the E9x was still in production in 2013! Toyota has been sitting on their laurels since then relying on refresh of old platforms, old engines, old technologies, etc. to keep their good reliability reputation going. That's all they got now, frankly.

The IS 500 exemplifies this - putting an old engine in an old platform and calling this combination "new." The same V8 engine has been used for years on the LS, LC, RC-F and now the IS. Their F brand is weak, having no unique engines and, compared with BMW's M, is short on every performance measure except weight. The proposed LC F could've been their showcase for new Lexus performance technology but they abandoned it last year citing COVID as the reason. If COVID can kill this, it must have been another feeble attempt to begin with.

Speaking of first gen IS300s, I will always have a special place in my heart for one...and a lighter wallet =)

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I'm not nearly as enamored. Their original 1st gen IS in 1998 was exciting and a good start to rival the E46 in terms of driving dynamics. But it's been a steep downhill since.

The current IS is the 3rd gen that began in 2013. For context, the E9x was still in production in 2013! Toyota has been sitting on their laurels since then relying on refresh of old platforms, old engines, old technologies, etc. to keep their good reliability reputation going. That's all they got now, frankly.

The IS 500 exemplifies this - putting an old engine in an old platform and calling this combination "new." The same V8 engine has been used for years on the LS, LC, RC-F and now the IS. Their F brand is weak, having no unique engines and, compared with BMW's M, is short on every performance measure except weight. The proposed LC F could've been their showcase for new Lexus performance technology but they abandoned it last year citing COVID as the reason. If COVID can kill this, it must have been another feeble attempt to begin with.

You make good points, can't argue with any of them. But I'm just saying I'm happy to see them putting more effort now by dropping a V8 in the IS and them hinting at a forthcoming IS-F and other F models. But yes the cost cutting still shows because they did not redesign the 3-IS and instead gave it a second refresh. The interior is disappointing, powertrain carried over etc.

However from an enthusiast standpoint, who else is doing a V8 in their compact executive sedans? Overall Lexus really is doubling down on the engaging sport sedan thing while others are moving away from it.

[supra93]

[jpy1980]

Originally Posted by supra93

Sounds like theres gonna be an ISF model out as well. Very nice!

[supra93]

Originally Posted by jpy1980

Sounds like theres gonna be an ISF model out as well. Very nice!

This is what Bestcar just posted.

In addition, there is information that "F" is planned for Lexus IS and LS, and it will debut at the earliest this year. The IS is the V8, 5L NA installed in the US specification "F Sport Performance", and the LS is the newly developed V6, 4L twin turbo. The IS F will be 481ps and the LS F will be 660ps.

https://bestcarweb.jp/news/scoop/278174

[Humdizzle]

waiting on reviews of the 500 to come out. hopefully not too much longer.

kind of disappointed in the upcoming F models. Was hoping for a TT or supercharged v8 instead of another blown 6 cylinder like everything else.

[ntg44]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

waiting on reviews of the 500 to come out. hopefully not too much longer.

kind of disappointed in the upcoming F models. Was hoping for a TT or supercharged v8 instead of another blown 6 cylinder like everything else.

I'm still holding out for the "3JZ." It's GONNA HAPPEN!

[SickGTR]

Originally Posted by supra93

Same big ass wheel gap as the new M's. WTF You can run over a football and never notice

[Macpsi]

Originally Posted by ntg44

I'm still holding out for the "3JZ." It's GONNA HAPPEN!

I never understood why people were upset about the supra not being the "3JZ" and sourcing a BMW engine. After all, the 2J was inspired from the 1J which was developed by Yamaha. So theoretically none of the Supra engines were really "created" by Toyota unless we're talking pre 90s.

[Humdizzle]

eh. all engines are traced back to another in some way shape or form.

The modern mclaren engines from the 12c, to the p1, to the 765LT are all based on the blueprint from the Nissan R390 engine. Million dollar exotic with a datsun motor.

i wouldn't be surprised if they call it the 3JZ just for the marketing ability.

[ntg44]

Originally Posted by Macpsi

I never understood why people were upset about the supra not being the "3JZ" and sourcing a BMW engine. After all, the 2J was inspired from the 1J which was developed by Yamaha. So theoretically none of the Supra engines were really "created" by Toyota unless we're talking pre 90s.

I think it's more so that it was under Toyota's control, like the LFA engine, rather than licensing it from another manufacturer like BMW.

Personally, I love the B58, and I wouldn't have cared that it's in the new Supra if the rest of the parts bin wasn't also taken from BMW and the car didn't manifest in its current form. I think they tried to blend FT1 with MKIV and the end result looks weird to me. I would have greatly preferred a 2+2 without the beak nose and more MKIV cues. A 240i would have been a more suitable platform to build off of in my opinion. I may have even bought one if that was the case .

I appreciate how light the Supra is though. Want to be fair, but it's not for me. I think the 400z is a more honest effort from a Japanese company, even if it has old bones.

[supra93]

https://www.motor1.com/news/506055/t...rbo-v8-patent/

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by supra93

https://www.motor1.com/news/506055/t...rbo-v8-patent/

How years late are they to the hot-v twin turbo V8 setup?

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

You make good points, can't argue with any of them. But I'm just saying I'm happy to see them putting more effort now by dropping a V8 in the IS and them hinting at a forthcoming IS-F and other F models. But yes the cost cutting still shows because they did not redesign the 3-IS and instead gave it a second refresh. The interior is disappointing, powertrain carried over etc.

However from an enthusiast standpoint, who else is doing a V8 in their compact executive sedans? Overall Lexus really is doubling down on the engaging sport sedan thing while others are moving away from it.

I think we're saying the same thing but in a different way and the only disagreement is the degree to which we're "impressed with Toyota/Lexus" - i.e., me, not so much!

You noted earlier that "a slew of new F models are on their way" but are they? Toyota reported last year they canceled the LC F. The twin-turbo V8 is apparently still happening but the rumor is it's going in the LC 500 when it receives a refresh, and their highest end SUV. So, looks like the IS500 is the start of V8's going into their "500" series models rather than future F models.

As for the IS500, yeah, it's a good thing, more choices the better. However, beyond the V8 sound and feel, I doubt it's going to be any more engaging as you claim. Other than the original IS300 which came very close, there has never been an IS that was more engaging than it's BMW 3-Series counterpart of that generation. In the case of the current IS this generation started when BMW was still making the E9x. They're not likely to turn an ancient platform, that was never that engaging in the first place, to one that's going to better than the G20 M440i.

Overall, IMO, Toyota sells cars like they're appliances. What do people want in appliances? Good quality, good reliability and decent design. That about checks all the boxes for Toyota/Lexus. And they've succeeded on this formula by beating VW/Audi/Porsche to become the top automaker by volume in 2020. This is the one thing I"m impressed by with Toyota/Lexus, probably the only thing.

[supra93]

https://lexusenthusiast.com/2021/05/...t-performance/

[The__J__Factor]

Acura, yeah nah

[supra93]

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by hellrotm

How years late are they to the hot-v twin turbo V8 setup?

10 years, if not more.

Toyota is slow to adapt to the current market. Carmakers are starting to phase out the 8 cylinder twin turbo and use an electric motor and smaller displacement.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by supra93

...

It's not a Canadian brochure that he keeps referencing. It most likely is in fact the US one.