[NRG]

Originally Posted by ims

Vishnu 1 - JuiceBox 0 ... game over?

That's is the dumbest statement in this thread.

[Sal G@Camber-Toe]

I know im just jumping in this thread now, but i've actually been following it the whole way through. I'm glad its gotten as far as it has, its become very informal and was glad to hear about the two most popular tunes. I myself am still undecided on which tune to go with and this thread did help. On a stock car running just the tune, what would the difference in HP be on simaler maps? If its something like ~5HP will you really notice the difference? Maybe someone can post logs to backup what they are saying?

IMO, I think tuning any car takes a lot of knowledge and skill, and on cars like ours cost shouldnt be that much of a factor over what could possibly happen in the longterm. I once heard about the "burning gerbil effect." You can set him on fire and he'll run on the wheel a whole lot faster.....but not for long

[ianthegreat]

30,000 miles on the clock.. 27,000 tuned. Not 1 service related issue - on original HPFP, not 1 code thrown verified through BT Scanner. JB1, 2, and now 3.

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

Both cars have uncatted aftermarket DP's.

Btw, please try keeping that attitude away.

So you guys were evenly modded except he had dct and factory exhaust? And what attitude i'm just trying to understand how is your handicapped rev1 running even with an unhandicapped rev2?

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by per

I don’t know if facts could help you to understand since you don’t seems to have both hands on the steering wheel.
But running the same map at the same setting= same power, I didn’t run any rev2 map at the event.

Take a look at this movie, do you se Big tom lose any ground when shifting?

Calm down guy you procede guys and your insults. I'm trying to understand why is a handicapped rev1 running with a unhandicapped rev2. I didn't make up the statement look to your tuner. So you guys were running the same map but according to shiv the rev1 is handicapped regardless, so why didn't your unhandicapped rev2 pull away regardless of what map? Because it complete nonsense. What I see and what I know is that big toms car is fast as hell and I already know from his videos that he is a fast shifter but he is not shifting faster than a dct tranny so please knock it off, so for shiv to make up this bogus statement that it was handicapped when he was racing enrita is ridiculous and you know it.

[Big Tom]

Originally Posted by Terrance28

So you guys were evenly modded except he had dct and factory exhaust? And what attitude i'm just trying to understand how is your handicapped rev1 running even with an unhandicapped rev2?

The differences between our cars is:

Mine | Per
- MT | DCT
- Rev1 | Rev2
- 19" | 18"
- Catless DP-back exhaust | Stock DP-back exhaust

Hopefully I will get a Rev2 in a short future, and then we will do a rerace to see if there are any differences in performance between Rev1 and Rev2.
I think this is an golden opportunity to take, since we were totally even the last time we raced!

[kenneth]

And both of you using pre bog fix maps?

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

The differences between our cars is:

Mine | Per
- MT | DCT
- Rev1 | Rev2
- 19" | 18"
- Catless DP-back exhaust | Stock DP-back exhaust

Hopefully I will get a Rev2 in a short future, and then we will do a rerace to see if there are any differences in performance between Rev1 and Rev2.
I think this is an golden opportunity to take, since we were totally even the last time we raced!

You guys should be on the same map on the rerace right? Looking forward to see it.

[Big Tom]

Originally Posted by kenneth

And both of you using pre bog fix maps?

Nope, the "Throttle Lag Fix" is only working with Rev2 and MT, so no one of us can use it.

We both had map 9-9 installed.

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by per

Ps and since big tom shifts lika a God i didn´t even gain any ground during shifts ds

From my experience, the quicker the shift, the worse the shift bog or throttle delay. For Big Tom not to lose ground, there are other reasons aside from being able to shift quickly. This is why I disagree with the statement that the Rev. 1 Procede was "handicapped" due to it being on a 6MT 335i. It had catless DPs, which dynos have showed to have enormous HP gains over stock DPs.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

Nope, the "Throttle Lag Fix" is only working with Rev2 and MT, so no one of us can use it.

We both had map 9-9 installed.

Yes, and both the DTC and 6MT suffer from throttle lag issues.

Shiv

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by jhershorin

This is why you went with a JB3. You don't understand the most basic of concepts I mentioned.

The LED goes in the vent so it is visible. The knock sensor goes on the motor. The LED goes off every time knock is detected.

Making a knock mic/stethescope is one of the most widely used tuning tools.

Thank you for clarifying your previous post but you still didn't answer my questions. Most importantly how certain are you the knocks your sensor picked up (which your LED also dislayed to you) were actual knock? Did you also perform any BT logs or any sort of logs to show that these knocks caused the DME to retard timing or dump more fuel?

As for your preference for the jb3 because it relies on factory knock sensor - wouldn't you prefer a system that makes 5whp less but never knocks instead of making a few whp more and knocking every time you get on the gas waiting for the ECU to pull timing?

Both systems experience knock retard. Logs has been presented in the past to show this.

Me and Shiv (he is the designer of his system and I am just a supporter of CP-e's) agree whole heartedly and are on the same page even though we are kinda competing? I guess educated people just agree more.

I love it when people bring up the education card during debates. It is engine mgmt/control not rocket science or genetic engineering. Don't be so quick to put your chin high up.

[supracg]

^ I think when he said educated he meant with regard to tuning, not saying hes not educated in general. That was just the relative matter at the time

[Big Tom]

Originally Posted by mmmotornutz

From my experience, the quicker the shift, the worse the shift bog or throttle delay. For Big Tom not to lose ground, there are other reasons aside from being able to shift quickly. This is why I disagree with the statement that the Rev. 1 Procede was "handicapped" due to it being on a 6MT 335i. It had catless DPs, which dynos have showed to have enormous HP gains over stock DPs.

I can write it again for those who keeps missing it all the time:
Both cars have uncatted aftermarket DP's.

If you take a look at the movie again you will see the complete specification for both cars:
[u2b]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8MYRBstdhz4&hl=sv&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8MYRBstdhz4&hl=sv&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/u2b]

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yes, and both the DTC and 6MT suffer from throttle lag issues.

Shiv

Shiv so you are saying that the DCT suffers from the same lag issues as the 6mt?

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

I can write it again for those who keeps missing it all the time:
Both cars have uncatted aftermarket DP's.

If you take a look at the movie again you will see the complete specification for both cars:
[u2b]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8MYRBstdhz4&hl=sv&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8MYRBstdhz4&hl=sv&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/u2b]

Yes sir we get that now, what we want to know now is if bought cars are evenly matched(except for mufflers, which is pretty insignificant) why isn't the unhandicapped rev2 pulling away from the handicapped rev1?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Terrance28

Shiv so you are saying that the DCT suffers from the same lag issues as the 6mt?

I believe i made that pretty clear.

Shiv

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Furthermore, listeningto you, mmmotornutz and Terrance defend the JB3s lack of ignition control without any real knowledge of engine tuning is becoming a bit too much even for me. mmmotornutz's comment about trusting the factory knock control system more than the PROcede's was especially disturbing since I would have thought that anyone will minimal understanding of the subject would know that the factory knock control system isn't disabled with the PROcede as Terry and crew have been suggested. It just has less work to do.

Shiv, what is so disturbing about my opinion? Is it truly disturbing to know that one prefers a system with full control over one that has part control? In my book a system that has full control (DME) is always better than a system that has part control (piggybacks).

Yes, the Procede can offset timing (as you are also guilty of marketting as timing control) but it can still knock when the incorrect octane and user settings are used. Much like how the JB3 can knock if the incorrect map was used. Both tunes can suffer from knock retard if improperly used - as logs have showed. Due to these reasons, in my eyes both tunes are equal, one not being any better than the other because both tunes at the end of day rely on the DME to handle the safety duties because of each tunes' inadequacies.

The beautiful part of being part of the audience is that I can be open-minded to new ideas and not be closed-minded. I can analyse data openly and see if it is acceptable or not. Doing things a certain way just because it has been done that way for a number of years doesn't mean that it is the only way.

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by Big Tom

I can write it again for those who keeps missing it all the time:
Both cars have uncatted aftermarket DP's.

Sorry I was going by post #185.

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by StartupJunkie

Also, it seems as if these ignition timing debate is brought up periodically. This thread from yestermonth seemed to put everything to rest (at the time, at least):

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...31#post5584531

What I didn't see or read from that thread was if the power differred after multiple pulls on the same ignition correction setting.

What I really want to know is, the software design specification (SDS) for the DME in regards to detonation/timing control (does it retard timing before the onset of knock or during knock and how does it detect knock)? Does it keep on advancing timing until it knocks than backs of a bit and stays there or does it use a predefined timing map? From the debates, and comments from Giac (who has probably seen the DME program), it looks like the DME advances until it knocks then backs off and stays there to keep things "cool." If we knew the exact design specification, and if the DME does "ride the knock" sensor, it is irrelevant if knock occurs under high or low boost (knock is knock at any boost level) - the DME will react accordingly, and quickly. If quickly, it is also irrelevant if one tune knocks more than the other as the DME reacts within probably a few milliseconds. Now if the SDS for the DME didn't "ride the knock" sensor then we clearly know which tune is safer and most likely better - the Procede. But if the DME was designed to "ride the knock" sensor then, neither tune is any better than the other.

[mmmotornutz]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I've had similar results when testing a properly chosen pump gas map on race gas. I recall even posting the dyno results and respective datalogs. The results are to be expected if DME ignitin advance logs show max values when running pump gas. So adding racegas won't make DME advance go more advanced. Common sense I think.

Shiv

What do you mean by "properly chosen pump gas map?" What would happen if you ran a properly chosen race gas map, a few times on 91 octane then a few times later on 100 octane?

[rolling18]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

If I understand correctly, then the jb3 has a faster 1/4 and more power. With a bt tool then you can log and clear codes. But the PROcede has access to more settings such as oil temp, can clear codes on its own, but costs more.

So a jb3 with bt tool is a great combo. The PROcede with its features is great too and only costs a few hundred more. You have to ask yourself whether or not the extra features of the PROcede is something that you will take advantage of. Compare the features and the price with the performance.

Price/Performance or Features/Performance. Pick one. JB3 combo is $700. PROcede is on sale for $945. Is the $245 worth the extra features of the PROcede?

dont forget, you can get currently supported used products and can see what products people are frequently selling all the time for something "better" that can bridge the price difference from the "for sale" section