[raceyBMW]

Originally Posted by Sniz

doesn't surprise me to find another end user of tuning products got the same impression I did.

the way he comes off is that if its not a Dinan badged product, then its rubbish regardless of how it performs.

That's exactly how he came across to me, that his product was vastly superior to anything else out there, and didn't seem to care much about the facts.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

BTT please, those tuner discussions are just idle speculation as long as we do not know the cause of the engine failure.

Also, one should take into consideration that one of the advantages of a piggyback is (as opposed to a flash) that you can more or less program it yourself and also go beyond advisable power levels or disable important safety features.

Here's some information from N54tech concerning the codes immediately after failure:

2C7C:
2C7C Lambda probe behind catalytic converter 2, signal

29CD:
29CD Misfirings, cylinder 1

29D2:
29D2 Misfirings, cylinder 6

29CC:
29CC Misfirings, several cylinders

2CF9:
2CF9 Throttle valve potentiometer 1

2CFA:
2CFA Throttle valve potentiometer 2

2D09:
2D09 butterfly valve

2ACC:
2ACC DME digital motor electronics main relay, switch delay

29F3:
29F3 Fuel pressure sensor, electrical

2D20:
2D20 Accelerator pedal module, pedal sensor, plausibility between signal 1 and signal 2


2ACB:
2ACB DME digital motor electronics main relay, input signal

2FBE:
2FBE Fuel pressure after motor stop

Alpina_B3_Lux

Were there any rpm traces or operating data associated with the trouble codes posted, or no?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I wonder what value should be placed on active ignition timing control. For Sevak, I'm guessing around $10-12k.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning

For a failsafe system to work is has to be connected and used properly. If one were to spray meth on top of the V4 without connecting a hardwire failsafe they would get 18-20psi and zero timing retard. If the meth stopped flowing or took longer than normal to spool up they would be open to the same problems. And even with a proper failsafe there is no guarantee the motor can stand up to 18, 19, and 20psi power levels forever. This setup was running high boost values for some time prior to running in to problems. If you want to advertise being able to run 18-20psi on this platform is completely without risk with your products then by all means do that and back it up with a guarantee. But it's clear that with this platform as with all others higher power levels carry higher risks, and again this was the point of the ORIGINAL post.

Mike

[m54b25]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

...not me

From some other forum, it will be interesting to see how this plays out

Well, I don't expect much more from a piggyback that cannot compensate for fuel, timing, etc. If it's just fooling the pressure sensors, O2 readouts, etc to make the DME read in a lower area of the map that has more timing & makes the dme to target the supposed boost to boost more aggressively unsafe. All this praise about wHp dynos are worthless, if it cannot made to last & keep getting codes erase IMHO. I keep seeing dynos with SUPER LEAN fuel curves, that most of the time vendors will not post it together with their dyno graphs.

Reasons that BMW will not honor any warranty, if it's a patch work that causes future long term engine failures. My 2 cents.

[adrian@vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

This is again false. Are you familiar with how your system is tuned on meth? With 18psi + meth your customers are running ZERO CPS OFFSET negating any difference between the two approaches. Many are running close to zero offset even without meth.

Mike

You totally missed my point. In ideal conditions when the DME is happy the Procede will Autotune to low levels of retard, but when conditions are not great, it will retard the timing. Obviously when this engine went given it cracked ringlands, conditions were not great. I am confident the Procede would have detuned itself before the failure.

You have pointed out a few logs of happy DMEs. You know as well as I that there are some equally unhappy DMEs and some Procede users who are running lower boost then they like because their DME is not happy (for no fault of the Procede). Autotune works very well.... but some cars are happier than others due to changes in mods/fuel quality etc. Therefore some will run high boost and lw retard, and other will run low boost and high retard.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB3 was the first to offer a single connector box featuring AMP/TYCO connectors. BMS simply called TYCO and asked for a suggested connector with the dimensions, contacts, and current rating required, and the new connector was their suggestion. No doubt you also called TYCO and received the same suggestion at some point. Inexpensive aluminum enclosures are the obvious choice as well although I have suggested to BMS they color theirs black to avoid confusion. On items the like the relays I can't comment although BMS mentioned to me one difference between their new PRO box and yours is they were relaying every altered I/O so the system can go in a true code free bypass mode if power is cut, firmware corrupted, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but your setup only has a bypass on the two analog channels boost and fuel pressure, but not crank position, speedometer out, secondary o2 sensors, etc.

Mike

You guys are really pushing the boundaries with that high tech one connector approach!! Now I am normally quite civil in a discussion. We have had discussions previously, and although we disagree, we are quite polite about it... but when it comes to your arguments regarding copying of the Procede, I have trouble not falling off my chair with LOL. You can't lay claim to some original idea when it has been done millions of times and is the obvious way to do it. The Procede used a high quality water proof solution until cost concerned dictated a lower cost unit, and then changed to a custom extrusion and low cost connector to reduce costs.... we did not get the idea from you!! I have seen your lists of things you believe the Procede copied from BMS... and I did fall off my chair that time. BMS has never had any original idea that was innovative. They have done some things that were different to Procede (occasionally), but nothing that was not obvious and would have done by anybody else. BMS have however with stunning predictability talked down all innovative features Procede has added only to do the same thing at a later date.

Actually I found the Tyco connector myself in a catalogue. That story of your connector and extrusion is a joke. I could find you 100 options for an enclosure/connector solution that is cheap and looks different to Procede. You better tell Terry to change the connector pinouts you are using so I can't point back to this thread when you release the JB 11ty and say "I told you so".

Adrian

[supracg]

^+1, its crazy how nobody realizes this..

Im not a fanboy at all but i can understand adrian's frustration when bms blatantly copies what they HAD been bashing at an earlier date, and consumer's don't even realize it..

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

BMS have however with stunning predictability talked down all innovative features Procede has added only to do the same thing at a later date.

Adrian

Yes, but that's marketing 101, no? marketing is dirty..

[vasillalov]

If shiv and terry are so concerned who did what first and who ripped whom, then I wonder where are their patents? Any smart business owner would immediately patent their product.

[adrian@vishnu]

I am not frustrated.... I expect our features will be copied... that is the way it is when you lead the market. As an engineer, my pride in my work would not enable me to copy things that do not really make any difference. I mean we are not talking iphones that people use as a status symbol that are readily viewable to the public. The box sits hidden in your engine bay. Why make it look like the competition? Also, there are many relays on the market, but it saves them testing to just use the one we use as they know it works for their intended application. If it was me, I would try to provide the features the market wants which may necessitate using some competitors ideas, but I would try to maintain some level of originality in the implementation... but maybe that is just me.

Marketting 101 is fair enough... Is marketting 102 to point out the competition are doing this?

The subject of patents is a difficult one. Some things we do are patentable, and some are not. We have recently taken some steps in this area, and we intend to enforce them. Either way, doing patents properly so that they provide the required protection requires alot of resources... resources that are taken away from product development, so the question is where are the resources better spent?

I am actually very curious where flashes live in regards to patents? Surely they are breaching BMW patent. Surely if BMW chose to do so, they could analyse the binary image of the flash, and prove that the flash is based upon their IP, and enforce IP protection? I mean let's face it, the flash tuners are not starting from scratch. They start with a binary image from a stock car that is presumably IP owned by BMW?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

You totally missed my point. In ideal conditions when the DME is happy the Procede will Autotune to low levels of retard, but when conditions are not great, it will retard the timing. Obviously when this engine went given it cracked ringlands, conditions were not great. I am confident the Procede would have detuned itself before the failure.

You have pointed out a few logs of happy DMEs. You know as well as I that there are some equally unhappy DMEs and some Procede users who are running lower boost then they like because their DME is not happy (for no fault of the Procede). Autotune works very well.... but some cars are happier than others due to changes in mods/fuel quality etc. Therefore some will run high boost and lw retard, and other will run low boost and high retard.



You guys are really pushing the boundaries with that high tech one connector approach!! Now I am normally quite civil in a discussion. We have had discussions previously, and although we disagree, we are quite polite about it... but when it comes to your arguments regarding copying of the Procede, I have trouble not falling off my chair with LOL. You can't lay claim to some original idea when it has been done millions of times and is the obvious way to do it. The Procede used a high quality water proof solution until cost concerned dictated a lower cost unit, and then changed to a custom extrusion and low cost connector to reduce costs.... we did not get the idea from you!! I have seen your lists of things you believe the Procede copied from BMS... and I did fall off my chair that time. BMS has never had any original idea that was innovative. They have done some things that were different to Procede (occasionally), but nothing that was not obvious and would have done by anybody else. BMS have however with stunning predictability talked down all innovative features Procede has added only to do the same thing at a later date.

Actually I found the Tyco connector myself in a catalogue. That story of your connector and extrusion is a joke. I could find you 100 options for an enclosure/connector solution that is cheap and looks different to Procede. You better tell Terry to change the connector pinouts you are using so I can't point back to this thread when you release the JB 11ty and say "I told you so".

Adrian

The details of this failure are not fully known. That the first sign of trouble appeared during a cold start with no ignition glow codes were present does raise an eyebrow. Detonation damage occurs at WOT and if a ring-land does let go I imagine it would result in codes immediately as compression is lost. Not the next day.

But what is known is that boost was set at 18.5psi with little taper and it relied on meth for octane. No different than your customers relying on meth to support a zero CPS offset. It is also known from logs that the meth failsafe was frequently disabled for reasons unknown. This would allow boost to build up before methanol started flowing and could cause short term severe knock. Monitoring timing advance over 30 seconds of WOT would not catch this. It must be controlled using a hardwired flow sensor based failsafe system.

On the rest of it getting in to details will simply take this thread further off topic. We'll get in to it another day.

Mike

[Clap135]

I am still curious to why the coolingmist kit failed.

[adrian@vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The details of this failure are not fully known. That the first sign of trouble appeared during a cold start with no ignition glow codes were present does raise an eyebrow. Detonation damage occurs at WOT and if a ring-land does let go I imagine it would result in codes immediately as compression is lost. Not the next day.

But what is known is that boost was set at 18.5psi with little taper and it relied on meth for octane. No different than your customers relying on meth to support a zero CPS offset. It is also known from logs that the meth failsafe was frequently disabled for reasons unknown. This would allow boost to build up before methanol started flowing and could cause short term severe knock. Monitoring timing advance over 30 seconds of WOT would not catch this. It must be controlled using a hardwired flow sensor based failsafe system.

On the rest of it getting in to details will simply take this thread further off topic. We'll get in to it another day.

Mike

Mike,

I am not sure if you have ever experienced a ring land failure (assuming this is indeed the failure mode). I have several times... both during power runs of poorly tuned engines, and once on my own engine (Subaru EJ257 stock pistons are like glass!! ). At all times the cause of damage was determined to be detonation. On my own engine the symptom was just a slightly rough idle and down on compression. The engine still ran fine and still made good power. The thing with a cracked piston, is that it will normally completely seperate a piece of piston, but because the pieces match shape exactly, they can stay in place nicely resulting in an engine that runs OK, .... or they can at some point seperate causing all sorts of bore issues that then prevent the rings sealing properly and cause a massive loss of compression. Often the time the symptoms become obvious is well after the event that caused the crack in the first place.

The other thing to note here is that pistons are the part of the engine that have the biggest temperature variation. The difference in temperature from hot to cold is alot. They change size alot from cold to hot, and therefore the clearances from the piston to bore can change alot. It would not be uncommon for an already cracked piston to behave completely differently when cold with large clearances compared to when hot with the designed clearances. It would also be possible for the act of cooling down and then heating again to enable the piece of piston to move and cause some bore damage when started next.

So you are right in that until the engine is tripped, we can only take guesses... but we can make some fairly educated guesses based on the information at hand (if it is accurate). I have personally not seen a piston that cracked out of the blue in an otherwise well running engine except where detonation was involved (which I have seen many times). The ring lands normally bear the brunt of detonation. They are on a point on the piston where there is limitted ability to remove the heat into the main mass of the piston. The piston itself has limitted ability to remove heat as it is not physically connected to the water cooler block and heads, so they are the most common thing to go due to the heat of sustained detonation. Also detonation causes large shock loads in the combustion pressure, and the ring-lands cop this shock loads as the seal the combustion pressure.

My guess is that the ringland failure occured before the car was stopped the previous time to the cold start that showed the symptoms. The extended clearances of cold running then amplified the symptoms due to resulting lower compression. The bores may or may not have been damaged, but likely to be resulting in even worse compression.

Do some reseach on causes of damage to ring lands. There are other causes, but there is one cause that is most common by a large margin... particularly in highly boosted engines.

Do you want to start another thread to discuss the other stuff?

Adrian

[Belarus]

As always enjoy reading informative posts and had few chuckles reading posts.

As many others interested to know what actually caused the engine failure after all the info/data is made available to avoid/minimize future engine casualties by lessons learned...

[adrian@vishnu]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I am still curious to why the coolingmist kit failed.

Is this known to be the case. I am thinking it is just a convenient thing to point the finger at.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Is this known to be the case. I am thinking it is just a convenient thing to point the finger at.

From the 9 pages of bullshit so far, I thought it was understood that the meth kit failed. I ran a standback/jb3/v4 ect so im no jb3 fanboi and currently have a v4 on my car.

There are several coolingmist kits with issues and failure. User related or not, I still want to know what failed this time with that kit.

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by Clap135

From the 9 pages of bullshit so far, I thought it was understood that the meth kit failed. I ran a standback/jb3/v4 ect so im no jb3 fanboi and currently have a v4 on my car.

There are several coolingmist kits with issues and failure. User related or not, I still want to know what failed this time with that kit.

Can you be more specific based on which posted facts you've come to conclusion that meth kit failed.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Mike,

I am not sure if you have ever experienced a ring land failure (assuming this is indeed the failure mode). I have several times... both during power runs of poorly tuned engines, and once on my own engine (Subaru EJ257 stock pistons are like glass!! ). At all times the cause of damage was determined to be detonation. On my own engine the symptom was just a slightly rough idle and down on compression. The engine still ran fine and still made good power. The thing with a cracked piston, is that it will normally completely seperate a piece of piston, but because the pieces match shape exactly, they can stay in place nicely resulting in an engine that runs OK, .... or they can at some point seperate causing all sorts of bore issues that then prevent the rings sealing properly and cause a massive loss of compression. Often the time the symptoms become obvious is well after the event that caused the crack in the first place.

The other thing to note here is that pistons are the part of the engine that have the biggest temperature variation. The difference in temperature from hot to cold is alot. They change size alot from cold to hot, and therefore the clearances from the piston to bore can change alot. It would not be uncommon for an already cracked piston to behave completely differently when cold with large clearances compared to when hot with the designed clearances. It would also be possible for the act of cooling down and then heating again to enable the piece of piston to move and cause some bore damage when started next.

So you are right in that until the engine is tripped, we can only take guesses... but we can make some fairly educated guesses based on the information at hand (if it is accurate). I have personally not seen a piston that cracked out of the blue in an otherwise well running engine except where detonation was involved (which I have seen many times). The ring lands normally bear the brunt of detonation. They are on a point on the piston where there is limitted ability to remove the heat into the main mass of the piston. The piston itself has limitted ability to remove heat as it is not physically connected to the water cooler block and heads, so they are the most common thing to go due to the heat of sustained detonation. Also detonation causes large shock loads in the combustion pressure, and the ring-lands cop this shock loads as the seal the combustion pressure.

My guess is that the ringland failure occured before the car was stopped the previous time to the cold start that showed the symptoms. The extended clearances of cold running then amplified the symptoms due to resulting lower compression. The bores may or may not have been damaged, but likely to be resulting in even worse compression.

Do some reseach on causes of damage to ring lands. There are other causes, but there is one cause that is most common by a large margin... particularly in highly boosted engines.

Do you want to start another thread to discuss the other stuff?

Adrian

Damn,

i couldnt have said better.... excellent portrayal of the pistons job...
and the responsibility of the compression rings

most n/a cars that detonate for a while will have evidence of the events on the top of the piston, but with f/i cars the pistons, rings and ringlands are typical --but it does not take long for this to happen -- a matter for seconds in some cases.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I am still curious to why the coolingmist kit failed.

also curious, MORE curious of why the JB3 was designed to run on a meth map at all if the safeguards are removed. It shouldn't even be able to happen.

this is not the 1st case of a JB3 running meth w no flow while still on high boost. Design flaw 101. Hell even my antique e36 running meth cant run high boost if the flow sensor doesnt read what the flow controller is expecting. Immediate wastegate pressure and nothing more. If I turn the meth off I cant go above 8psi PERIOD.

[CBR335]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I am still curious to why the coolingmist kit failed.

Is it clear that the CM meth kit failed? If the JB3 hardwire meth-based safety was enabled, the JB3 would drop to a lower map based on the loss of flow, however there is a delay period of a fraction of a second where things can go bad and if the meth flow trigger point is set too low, even partial meth flow could keep boost high with a partial line or nozzle clog. If flow was not there in the first place, then map up-switching to higher boost would not occur in the first place. The user can choose not to or forget to enable the JB3 meth safety at the software level and run a straight race map with no safety. It is a simple choice to set up the failsafe correctly or not and it is very simple to do it right. If the meth safety was configured at the JB3 level and the CM kit lost power or failed, the JB3 would not have allowed high boost or would have cut it quickly. The problem on pump gas and high boost is that there is no margin for safety especially when timing is maxed on meth. Unfortunately at the edge of performance, mistakes are costly. I believe Sevak was well aware of how far he was pushing it.

[themyst]

wasn't it established that the guy's car wasn't healthy even before the failure?

[cn555ic]

I wonder when this guy Sevak is finally going to give us some more info this...I know he must be sick to his stomach of what happened as it seems it takes really good care of his car!



Lets go YANKEES!!!

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Sniz

also curious, MORE curious of why the JB3 was designed to run on a meth map at all if the safeguards are removed. It shouldn't even be able to happen.

this is not the 1st case of a JB3 running meth w no flow while still on high boost. Design flaw 101. Hell even my antique e36 running meth cant run high boost if the flow sensor doesnt read what the flow controller is expecting. Immediate wastegate pressure and nothing more. If I turn the meth off I cant go above 8psi PERIOD.

Well if your going to call out the Jb3 for not having this "safeguard" in place, then you need to add the rest of the tunes to your list because none of them do that.

Frankly, I dont agree with the idea either.

In the past, I've tuned many peoples cars with standalone managment type tunes, with full control of ignition, fuel, boost, ETC

The beauty of those tunes was full control and personally is a method I still prefer (to a certain extent).

I do enjoy the benefits of this car and how it will adapt accordingly for fuel and ignition (to a certain extent and to the best of its ability within reason) which is great, but it does lack FULL CONTROL too. So its a give and take.

I'm not saying your E36 tune is completely wrong for limiting boost, but it would for damn sure give me a reason not to use that tune as it lacks what I personally like, control.

Be that as it may, I dont think the answer is hold everyones hand.

The tunes have the failsafe settings ability, they have the adjustments and options ETC

Its up to the end user and partial the tuner to explain the features offer CONSERVATIVE advice, but at the end of the day the end user/installer is going to need to take the right precautions when controlling their car.

I mean, if it gets as bad as everyone tune needs a failsafe are you cant run meth, why dont you make it so everyone tune runs stock boost so you cant over-boost your turbos out of efficiency ETC

It just gets to a point where the increasing limitation puts a damper on the whole tuning "fun" (control).

I think we need to hear more from Sevak before we all dig too deep in this.

As it is, there are only 2 failures on these boards that we know about in the past 6 months? So this is really nothing to call home about, especially with the advances in tunes in the past 6 months let alone past couple months.

We are pushing boundaries, finding them, and learning a lot. Its part of the tuning world and looking to find the most out of this car.

We are still in the infancy of this car, so the last thing we need to do is start limiting things. Granted a good idea, but again should be optional.

/rant

Edit- your idea would also leave out the option for race gas use as well which wouldnt work.