[Proper Motion LLC]

This is too funny, BMW can't keep a stock engine from knocking, Cobb is wrong about whAt knock is, and Clap knows all.

Really people? Really?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

The sampling rate of the procede is 3x per second, cobb is 25 per second Mike....
I like how the graph i recently posted simply got ignored.

Correction: Procede samples non CAN channels at 32/sec. And CAN channels at 10/sec. The other info you have provided with respect to knock is accurate.

Lastly, there are many more engine failures out there than the few that were disclosed on this forum. Money and common sense usually prevails.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Correction: Procede samples non CAN channels at 32/sec. And CAN channels at 10/sec. The other info you have provided with respect to knock is accurate.

Lastly, there are many more engine failures out there than the few that were disclosed on this forum. Money and common sense usually prevails.

Dont correct Laloosh/Clap, he is aggressive. and is NEVER WRONG!

Don't use "many more" that is like saying there is a lot of problems with something. Its leaves it up to people opinion and imagination's that at times can run wild.

Once again shiv, great products!

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

I need to get some more logs and make sure my engine isn't knocking that bad. Never had a problem with JB, but threads like this definitely don't make me more confident.

You would know if it was knocking "bad". You would hear and feel it.

[ianthegreat]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Do you? You have questioned everything I have posted, but havn't provide any information to back up anything you claim. As for my data, look the two blown engine a couple month ago. If you ever saw an engine that was damamged and know what knock does to internals, its pretty easy to say waht happened to both of them.

Can you link both stories?

Were they driving in normal situations or putting their car in extreme situations? Was there any determination on exactly what caused the engine failures?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by SennaZ

Alot of hypothetical arguments with no real proof from either side

IMO, any tune that doesn't monitor each cylinder individually and set the MBT for it is a a piece of crap.

Hell, last I heard Toyota was using cylinder pressure based ECU's and with the advent of relatively cheap plug pressure sensors I'm surprised that any really good tuner hasn't stepped up to the plate.

You dont need proof to determine if one tuning approach is half assed. All you need is a basic understanding on engine tuning principals. The sad fact us that many people are easily deceived. And that is something that some people will happily capitalize on. And I suspect most of the ill-informed counterpoints presented in this thread have been presented by people who fall into this category. Asking for "proof that knocking is bad?". Citing how "well" thousands of cars are running? Sometimes I think people just like fooling themselves and others.

Educate yourselves and this forum will be a far less heated environment.

[BmwFanFL]

This thread gets at one reason I haven't yet tuned. Early on, I considered the sstt, remember that. With zero tuning, but sw and ee engineering, I couldn't get comfortable with just bumping boost. It seemed to me, other facets, like fuel/air, ignition, temp, pressures, rtc would be confused if you hid reality so simply from the ecu.

Then piggybacks became much more thorough. Obviously that went a long way. I read the debates on tuning approaches filled with mostly innuendo. I didn't want to substantially risk the engine - for me or a future owner. I also dreaded losing a part in the engine bay or braking some clip or part. I prefer sw and electronics - mechanical - not so much.

This thread gets to the core of an issue. I appreciate not dancing around the questions. If I tune, I want all parameters proactively managed.

Clearly, more fuel/air in the cylinder - at a higher pressure by definition - raises knock risks, as well as other risks.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You dont need proof to determine if one tuning approach is half assed. All you need is a basic understanding on engine tuning principals. The sad fact us that many people are easily deceived. And that is something that some people will happily capitalize on. And I suspect most of the ill-informed counterpoints presented in this thread have been presented by people who fall into this category. Asking for "proof that knocking is bad?". Citing how "well" thousands of cars are running? Sometimes I think people just like fooling themselves and others.

Educate yourselves and this forum will be a far less heated environment.

Shiv can you provide data showing the severity of "knock" at certain PSI's? (you can PM me these if you don't wish to post them on here)

I think we all agree that knock can be damaging to a the N54, at what level is still yet to be disclosed, considering there is "knock frequency's" present with OEM boost levels.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Shiv can you provide data showing the severity of "knock" at certain PSI's?

I think we all agree that knock can be damaging to a the N54, at what level is still yet to be disclosed, considering there is "knock frequency's" present with OEM boost levels.

do we really need to know that? knock is bad...more knock is worse. more knock at more cylinder pressure is even worse yet.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Sniz

do we really need to know that? knock is bad...more knock is worse. more knock at more cylinder pressure is even worse yet.

I feel we do. If you want to hold a discussion about how bad "knock" is, we need to actually KNOW what, were, when and how bad it really is. With some kind of solid data, and from what I have been told by Laloosh/Clap is not possible to get said data.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Rysandro

This is too funny, BMW can't keep a stock engine from knocking, Cobb is wrong about whAt knock is, and Clap knows all.

Really people? Really?

Riding the knock threshold at 5-8psi, in harsh conditions, is a heck of a lot different than routinely exceeding it at 12-16psi in all conditions. The knock control system (and the construction of the engine) is designed fo operate one way. Adding a boost controller, doubling the boost, expecting things to sort themselves out, claiming hogwash about implementing proactive forms of ignition timing control, fabricating theories to support system shortcomings, and preying on the uninformed is what many of us have a problem with. If you don't have any such problem, chances are that you are either the ones doing the preying or the ones who are sadly uninformed.

[SennaZ]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You dont need proof to determine if one tuning approach is half assed. All you need is a basic understanding on engine tuning principals. The sad fact us that many people are easily deceived. And that is something that some people will happily capitalize on. And I suspect most of the ill-informed counterpoints presented in this thread have been presented by people who fall into this category. Asking for "proof that knocking is bad?". Citing how "well" thousands of cars are running? Sometimes I think people just like fooling themselves and others.

Educate yourselves and this forum will be a far less heated environment.

My post was a bit tongue in cheek. But, if this community is really serious about pushing the envelope with their tunes, some diagnostic testing is certainly in order.

For example, check your plugs - prolonged knocking is rather obvious. Get a fiber optic scope and look at your pistons faces (picked up one from Harbor Freight for not that much $). And probably the best: do an engine oil analysis. I think Mr. 5 is the resident expert on this.

Otherwise, just a bunch of Chicken Littles!

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by SennaZ

My post was a bit tongue in cheek. But, if this community is really serious about pushing the envelope with their tunes, some diagnostic testing is certainly in order.

For example, check your plugs - prolonged knocking is rather obvious. Get a fiber optic scope and look at your pistons faces (picked up one from Harbor Freight for not that much $). And probably the best: do an engine oil analysis. I think Mr. 5 is the resident expert on this.

Otherwise, just a bunch of Chicken Littles!

[Alan l.]

in response to InCityPhoto/Mike/Terry

What you are asking for is like asking a doctor how much damage is one cigarette is causing to your lungs, how much damage is 2,3,4,5,100 cigarettes? There is really no way to quantify it unless you take out someones lungs and cut it open to examine after each one. Even then it might be impossible to do and certainly not a realistic question to try to answer. All you need to know is that cigarettes are bad and the longer you smoke the higher the chance of something going wrong. Same situation here.

Claps post here isn't to compare it to other tunes but simply point out that even a stock car can knock so a tune that relies on it 100% will also knock. Like others have said and common sense would agree that knocking at 8psi different from knocking at 15psi. Just like how everyone would agree that someone with a hammer using 100% of his strength is going to do more damage than as if he was only using 50% of his strength?

Alan

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Alan l.

What you are asking for is like asking a doctor how much damage is one cigarette is causing to your lungs, how much damage is 2,3,4,5,100 cigarettes? There is really no way to quantify it unless you take out someones lungs and cut it open to examine. Even then I might be impossible to do and certainly not a realistic question to try to answer. All you need to know is that cigarettes are bad and the longer you smoke the higher the chance of something going wrong. Same situation here.

totally agree

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Riding the knock threshold at 5-8psi, in harsh conditions, is a heck of a lot different than routinely exceeding it at 12-16psi in all conditions. The knock control system (and the construction of the engine) is designed fo operate one way. Adding a boost controller, doubling the boost, expecting things to sort themselves out, claiming hogwash about implementing proactive forms of ignition timing control, fabricating theories to support system shortcomings, and preying on the uninformed is what many of us have a problem with. If you don't have any such problem, chances are that you are either the ones doing the preying or the ones who are sadly uninformed.

First off I agree to a point.

The part I am still stuck on here, is that 90% of people will never "double" there boost with the JB4, if that is the case they would be running 17-20PSI, which is were the majority of these engine failures have occurred.

Using the OEM system that BMW designed to manage this problem, is understandable and acceptable as long as you stay within the range of said system, I am not saying there is not better ways to do it, I am just saying that it works for the majority.

I think that many people are "uninformed" because both sides put out only what THEY want the person to see, which is common in any business and you have to do your own research to find this out..

I also think that this forum puts out a lot of information that is incorrect, for both sides.

Which if you look at the sticky on the top of this forum you will see that your tune shiv has a little X by "Pro-Active" timing and the BMS system does not, so that should be satisfactory I think. I know when I started learning about all the tunes out there, I understood this.

Originally Posted by Alan l.

in response to InCityPhoto/Mike/Terry

What you are asking for is like asking a doctor how much damage is one cigarette is causing to your lungs, how much damage is 2,3,4,5,100 cigarettes? There is really no way to quantify it unless you take out someones lungs and cut it open to examine after each one. Even then I might be impossible to do and certainly not a realistic question to try to answer. All you need to know is that cigarettes are bad and the longer you smoke the higher the chance of something going wrong. Same situation here.

Claps post here isn't to compare it to other tunes but simply point out that even a stock car can knock so a tune that relies on it 100% will also knock. Like others have said and common sense would agree that knocking at 8psi different from knocking at 15psi. Just like how everyone would agree that someone with a hammer using 100% of his strength is going to do more damage than as if he was only using 50% of his strength?

Alan

You say that knocking at 8PSI is different then knock at 20PSI (Obviously) but by how much?

The OEM knock sensor reduced timing before there is a catastrophic "Knock" so that it never lets the car knock to 100% unless it is unable to reduce timing enough, in which you see the case of the cars that have blown up.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Correction: Procede samples non CAN channels at 32/sec. And CAN channels at 10/sec. The other info you have provided with respect to knock is accurate.

Lastly, there are many more engine failures out there than the few that were disclosed on this forum. Money and common sense usually prevails.

the 3x comment, the x is suppose to be number, I just wasnt sure if it was 35 or 32 so i wrote X instead.

[Focus]

Clap/Shiv

If i understand correctly, what your saying is that even the the engine knocks at stock boost levels, the same knock occuring at 14+ psi is heavily damaging to the engine in your opinions correct? I say in your opinions because without opening an engine and SEEING the damage there's not FACT in the statement, even though " common sense " dictates the latter.

[secretsquirrel]

Originally Posted by BmwFanny

Clearly, more fuel/air in the cylinder - at a higher pressure by definition - raises knock risks, as well as other risks.

I'm no tuning genius, but I definitely know that running a car at a higher boost or higher compression (on N/A) engines can produce more catastrophic events when something is not correct. I thought that was common sense.

I'm having a hard time understanding why people want proof that a car running 14psi has the potential to knock harder than one running 7-8psi.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The PROcede and JB4 both sample/log CAN data like timing advance at 10 times per second. Not sure on the Cobb but likely the same or slower as it has to go through a gateway like the BT cable did.

Mike

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Correction: Procede samples non CAN channels at 32/sec. And CAN channels at 10/sec.

Hmm.. Odd that I was right.. Must of been a fluke.

Originally Posted by lndnny

Don't you just love these partial truths. That might be true, I'm not sure on the CAN data polling rate of the Procede, but I'm fairly certain that the sampling rate on the sensors read directly by the Procede are taken at 32 samples/second.

Could you explain to me exactly how my post is a "partial truth"

Mike

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by secretsquirrel

I'm no tuning genius, but I definitely know that running a car at a higher boost or higher compression (on N/A) engines can produce more catastrophic events when something is not correct. I thought that was common sense.

I'm having a hard time understanding why people want proof that a car running 14psi has the potential to knock harder than one running 7-8psi.

See the problem is that everything is Hypothetical and Opinion and assumption with there "common sense"

Potential means nothing without data backing up the fact that the OEM knock sensor can not handle the added boost.

[Clap135]

Because they are tying to make it personal against me, thats why. The ill informed 18 year olds that have no concept of tuning and question weather knock is bad to begin with, are simply agnry.

[Joshboody]

boy, had to catch up on the reading. The JB camp is basically in denial. I'm sure there will be more proof in the future, but the N54 is apparently very tough... so will take a little time to see the actually differences between stock timing, and some type of timing control at high psi.

Some seem to think it's ok to run with knock because this is like stock. At high boost, knock is not only more severe, but also more frequent just because of the timing curve targeted and retard levels when knock is measured.