[Rotorocious]

For some reason this thread reminds me of this.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Glowin

Double edged sword... Would you buy a tune or an exhaust or any other performance mod without a dyno? No. Everyone cries for dynos as soon as something is released.

I don't see how this is different, when he says this new meth system is better than the old one. Granted, dynos on it were provided to show total gains over stock or stock with Procede, but the main point of this new system was how much better it is compared to the old style ones, so a dyno comparing old vs. new would seem to be common sense and would put to bed all the complaints of the doubters here.

A WOT Dyno wont show anything.... The main benefit of the PWM is not WOT, its partial boost. As mentioned previously the benefits are efficiency. Where a traditional system sprays enough methanol for WOT only, this system has the capability of providing just enough meth where less methanol is needed on partial throttle, and enough meth at WOT.

IF you guys understand the PWM kit, you will understand its benefits.

This not only avoids wasting methanol at low throttle and boost, but it also improves over all efficiency and avoids meth quench ETC ETC

[Glowin]

I don't personally doubt the improvements over a regular kit. It's just that as a technical crowd, a lot of people prefer to see proof of things, and not just accept something based on theory. So to take what you're saying, then one would try to objectively show this difference as best as possible, by doing some logging at partial throttle maybe? Don't take that as an actual suggestion though, I'm just saying there must be some way to try to produce some data.

Anyway, it's up to Shiv what / how he decides to market his new kit, and whether there's more to his aversion to do the test / show results of it, only he knows. People will continue speculating until they see numbers I think.

I guess I was trying to translate their concerns as a neutral person...

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Glowin

I don't personally doubt the improvements over a regular kit. It's just that as a technical crowd, a lot of people prefer to see proof of things, and not just accept something based on theory. So to take what you're saying, then one would try to objectively show this difference as best as possible, by doing some logging at partial throttle maybe? Don't take that as an actual suggestion though, I'm just saying there must be some way to try to produce some data.

Anyway, it's up to Shiv what / how he decides to market his new kit, and whether there's more to his aversion to do the test / show results of it, only he knows. People will continue speculating until they see numbers I think.

I guess I was trying to translate their concerns as a neutral person...

I dont think any logs would show anything concrete though.

IAT would be reduced with both kits. Ignition should be good with both kits. The difference is one is using a large nozzle at a fixed PSI. The other is using using less methanol in areas it does need as much to produce the same IAT (maybe slightly better) and same ignition. As you know with this car ignition can only go so high per the ignition tables.

Again, the idea is efficiency so all it is doing is what a traditional system cant do and that is atomize methanol at a lower pressure. In turn, what that allows is methanol to be sprayed at partial boost or as IDC increase/decrease etc.

[Brey335i]

The more important concern is this:

Jeff, will you guys carry the Vishnu PWM meth kit once they get caught up with the preorders?

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

I dont think any logs would show anything concrete though.

IAT would be reduced with both kits. Ignition should be good with both kits. The difference is one is using a large nozzle at a fixed PSI. The other is using using less methanol in areas it does need as much to produce the same IAT (maybe slightly better) and same ignition. As you know with this car ignition can only go so high per the ignition tables.

Again, the idea is efficiency so all it is doing is what a traditional system cant do and that is atomize methanol at a lower pressure. In turn, what that allows is methanol to be sprayed at partial boost or as IDC increase/decrease etc.

Notwithstanding lower meth use though and ease of install, isn't the biggest advantage of this kit supposed to be larger increase in power compared to a traditional meth kit? I thought THAT was the major selling feature of it, and hence all the dynos Shiv posted?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by TWNTRBO

Interesting stuff

If you took a step away from your agenda and actually understood the relationship between pressure and flow, you'd realize that a "progressive" PPS meth kit is hardly progressive. Very different from a pwm controlled fuel system which is truly progressive from 10% flow to 90% flow. Pls try to understand these basics before taking it upon yourself to cast doubt upon something that you don't want people to buy. I can only guess why.

And for those who are being kept up at night wondering how much better a PWM meth kit is than a PPS meth kit, just drive both when/if you get a chance. There will be a couple hundred hitting the streets in the next several weeks. See for yourself

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Brey335i

The more important concern is this:

Jeff, will you guys carry the Vishnu PWM meth kit once they get caught up with the preorders?

Originally Posted by Glowin

Notwithstanding lower meth use though and ease of install, isn't the biggest advantage of this kit supposed to be larger increase in power compared to a traditional meth kit? I thought THAT was the major selling feature of it, and hence all the dynos Shiv posted?

I think the dynos were more to prove that it makes just as much power if not more then a traditional kit.

Originally Posted by TWNTRBO

Interesting stuff

Whats more intersting is your comparing a progressive controller I.e. CMGS to a PWM kit. LOL You my friend need to do your homework. Try again if you think your going to see me "slip", it wont happen. I'm extremely consistent in what I say.

By the way those post are so out-dated I made those comments when I wasnt even a vendor! LOL

Let alone the fact that the subject of those posts were not related at all to a PWM discussion.

***

Just for the record since our friend above didnt know the difference between a traditional progressive controller and a PWM kit I will gladly explain in short the difference.

The problem with a traditional progressive controller is the same problem that we have all been trying to convince everyone in here which nobody seems to grasp:

A traditional PPS system and progressive controller still cant atomize properly compared to a PWM.

You also cant map out your meth flow per IDC or however you want like the vishnu PWM kit.

What you have is a poor atomization, little control, and a product wasted on this platform.

When I say little controller I'm refering to the fact that the only thing you can do is trigger when meth starts flowing and when methanol flows full. So in the time you are waiting for full meth you are dealing with poor atomization (inefficiency) so on and so forth.

As I mentioned many times in other threads and maybe this one. I have no dog in this fight. I dont sell the Vishnu PWM kit. In fact I sell everything else but at this time.

All I'm trying to do is help people understand the difference. It's up to them to decide which kit to run.

I said before somewhere on the boards that the best kit to buy is a PWM kit.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

If you took a step away from your agenda and actually understood the relationship between pressure and flow, you'd realize that a "progressive" PPS meth kit is hardly progressive. Very different from a pwm controlled fuel system which is truly progressive from 10% flow to 90% flow. Pls try to understand these basics before taking it upon yourself to cast doubt upon something that you don't want people to buy. I can only guess why.

And for those who are being kept up at night wondering how much better a PWM meth kit is than a PPS meth kit, just drive both when/if you get a chance. There will be a couple hundred hitting the streets in the next several weeks. See for yourself

[Shellacked135i]

TwnTrbo just got owned LOL

[Shellacked135i]

Nobody is fooling anyone. Its a PWM kit with a charge pipe and all the plug and play features for a clean install and it works. Dyno proven. The historical evidence of aquamist and PWM is all around us you need to get out of the e90 bubble. Get out there and see for yourself it is all very real.

[Glowin]

So now the ball is in Mike's court? LOL!

[Brey335i]

Why don't you just wait a little? With a lot of members about to receive these kits, a comparison is inevitable.

And you wouldn't trust anything Shiv posts anyways so you might as well wait for the user comparisons

[Glowin]

Originally Posted by Brey335i

Why don't you just wait a little? With a lot of members about to receive these kits, a comparison is inevitable.

And you wouldn't trust anything Shiv posts anyways so you might as well wait for the user comparisons

As Shiv said himself, "people that will never go to the effort of testing it themselves". But sure, let's see if it happens.

And ignoring for a second all the variables introduced into testing from using two different kits, you want a user to go dyno their old setup, then take it all off, install the PWM kit, and redyno it right away? I think that's highly UNrealistic.

That's why a vendor test seems more plausible to me. They have the resources to do so, and stand the most to gain by proving the new system's that much better than the old. If anything, the testing would inherently be biased towards proving the new kit is that much better, so you'd think a vendor would be all over doing the testing!

Going back to the hardware issues in having a user test it, this is what Shiv was going to do, which is why I doubt a user would go to this much trouble / have the means to do so:

"Both a PWM and a PPS meth kit are installed in the same customer car. Same pump. Same flow system (900-1000cc/min) as verified on the test bench. PPS kit has a solenoid and a progressive controller. Both kits use the same Aquamist flow meter so that we can have an apples-to-apples comparison on raw flow signal. Both kits use the same stock chargepipe with our old elbow. Both kits have the pump and bottle are trunk mounted."
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As I said earlier, I'm neutral in all this, so I'm not a JB fan bashing this new kit. I own a Procede. I just think it would be good to see the results.

[cn555ic]

I would like to see the differences also. The pwm kits are Popping up left and right I am sure someone will post dynos and logs of runs with exact mods with the only difference is the meth kits. Just sit tight and wait!

[MrHeavyFoot]

I would like to see a comparison too.

However, demanding that Shiv does additional specific tests, will only increase effort on his part. These costs will ultimately be passed down in the form of higher prices and delay development of other goodies.

Even then, there will be people who pick on the results - damn you Shiv, the temps was off between the runs! What were you thinking! We know you can control the weather!

Regardless of the results, I would still have gotten Shiv's kit for ease of integration and peace of mind knowing that Shiv has properly integrated it with the Procede. That's what's important to me.

So I ask those demanding tests from Shiv to please be patient and wait for others to do testing then make your own judgement. That's also what a forum is for.

[drfrink24]

One would imagine that if the differences were as dramatic as the price difference between traditional and PWM, that Shiv, vendors and users would be providing more data, rather than less data to back their claims.

Can you imagine if RB turbos never provided any data? From Shivs (and others standpoint) they'd cite the new turbo and simply say "this logically cannot make less power, so therefore, we will not provide any data. Drive a RB can and you won't ever need to see any data.". Technically, this likely would be correct, but still a bit strange.

[Brey335i]

Originally Posted by drfrink24

One would imagine that if the differences were as dramatic as the price difference between traditional and PWM, that Shiv, vendors and users would be providing more data, rather than less data to back their claims.

Can you imagine if RB turbos never provided any data? From Shivs (and others standpoint) they'd cite the new turbo and simply say "this logically cannot make less power, so therefore, we will not provide any data. Drive a RB can and you won't ever need to see any data.". Technically, this likely would be correct, but still a bit strange.

Anyone who knows anything about how a turbo works can see why the RB turbos are so much better...

[drfrink24]

Originally Posted by Brey335i

Anyone who knows anything about how a turbo works can see why the RB turbos are so much better...

So, in your opinion, any data provided by, or on behalf of RB turbos was/is a waste of time, even if to confirm that the turbos are performing to spec?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by TWNTRBO

yes, it does work. just the same as basic kits, dyno proven. what we want to see is why it costs more. i get the idea that "its better" and it costs more. but show us how its better.

I would think that since vishnu is busy, acceptable, but maybe one of the other vendors can show data? A "solution" to the problem at hand. maybe even a "TOPGEAR" kinda solution, since said vendor has a basic methanol kit I presume, has previously stated progressive is not needed, but will be carrying the new PWM Kit, one can think they might be willing to pick up where Vishnu has left off.

i really dont see the big deal. Asking for performance data, on a perfomance site, in a performance section,from perfomance orineted vendors, should not be getting labelled as "trolling"

There is a plethora of information of PWM kits out their. We dont sell the PWM meth kit from Vishnu. Dyno's have been posted.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by drfrink24

So, in your opinion, any data provided by, or on behalf of RB turbos was/is a waste of time, even if to confirm that the turbos are performing to spec?

I actually don't think RB ever provided any inhouse data... it was customer reviews and dynos... i little easier to quantify also. I would love to see the back to back logs, but I do understand it's not so easy and much subjective reviews afterwards. My primary interest is if a response time can be observed in the log, but I think driving (not just WOT) will give the best understanding in advantages.

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by Glowin

As I said earlier, I'm neutral in all this, so I'm not a JB fan bashing this new kit. I own a Procede. I just think it would be good to see the results.

+1 - but it won't happen from Vishnu and we should give up. I have.

I'll wait, someone will do it.