[Clap135]

Not sure if this is the best one they got, but its the one i found.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Not sure if this is the best one they got, but its the one i found.

I don't see anything wrong with those figures.

This dyno is #1 low reading, and was likely done in 100+ degree ambient temps. 13 psi peak at absolute target is a fart in the wind over stock in those ambient temps when the air density is so low. All these +60-70whp figures are done in favorable conditions and such.

Perhaps now people won't flip the f' out when I tell them to run more boost in hotter temps for the same power. Take a JB4 map 1 car, put it up against a Cobb stage 1 in 90 degree ambient temps and watch the JB4 car get destroyed. Proof is in the pudding.

edit- the boost target for the JB4 is wrong. Map 1 is actually 13 psi peak.

[FirstBMWLA]

Originally Posted by themyst

No, there is a set curve across all cylinders, and the DME (as it does stock and on piggybacks) makes cylinder to cylinder corrections. Ideally, you want no dropouts, but that's a tough task, even for the stock tune.

Question.
If COBB can log but not act on timing information from all cylinders and still relies on DME for per cylinder correction Why all the fuss about procede using cylinder 1 for it's reading?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by themyst

I don't see anything wrong with those figures.

This dyno is #1 low reading, and was likely done in 100+ degree ambient temps. 13 psi peak at absolute target is a fart in the wind over stock in those ambient temps when the air density is so low. All these +60-70whp figures are done in favorable conditions and such.

Perhaps now people won't flip the f' out when I tell them to run more boost in hotter temps for the same power. Take a JB4 map 1 car, put it up against a Cobb stage 1 in 90 degree ambient temps and watch the JB4 car get destroyed. Proof is in the pudding.

edit- the boost target for the JB4 is wrong. Map 1 is actually 13 psi peak.

I dunno what kinda condtion they have in march, but i doubt its 100 plus lol.
Then again I never lived in houston.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Well I think most of them were map 1 and autotuning which ended up being the same as map 1 or lower lol.

I think dinan stage 1 came in at a little over 300 as well.

Ya I skipped over Dinan cause...well... you know why

Yes the autotune was showing even lower numbers then straight map 1 or map 2. Realistically we know that the JB4 does have more power on the street anyway.

[Bmwguy11]

Originally Posted by FirstBMWLA

Question.
If COBB can log but not act on timing information from all cylinders and still relies on DME for per cylinder correction Why all the fuss about procede using cylinder 1 for it's reading?

I could be mistaken, but I'll take a shot at explaining.


I think the reason is because the piggy backs adjust their timing based upon only cylinder 1. The other cylinders could be giving "warning" that an adjustment needs to be made but cylinder 1 shows it's fine, so the tune doesn't adjust, OR the other side of it, cylinder 1 could be "twitchy" when a timing adjustment is not really necessary, but the tune adjusts the overall timing anyways.

I think with the flash, it will adjust the entire timing map based upon readings from more than just cylinder 1? I could be totally wrong, but that was the impression I got.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Bmwguy11

I could be mistaken, but I'll take a shot at explaining.


I think the reason is because the piggy backs adjust their timing based upon only cylinder 1. The other cylinders could be giving "warning" that an adjustment needs to be made but cylinder 1 shows it's fine, so the tune doesn't adjust, OR the other side of it, cylinder 1 could be "twitchy" when a timing adjustment is not really necessary, but the tune adjusts the overall timing anyways.

I think with the flash, it will adjust the entire timing map based upon readings from more than just cylinder 1? I could be totally wrong, but that was the impression I got.

The stock ecu makes the adjument no matter if you use a flash or piggy.
The problem is the piggys use cylinder 1 which is the 'happy' cylinder. So while cylinder 1 is showing no signs of issues, cylinders 4 5 6 for example could be dropping timing already, while the piggy does nothing about it cause they based their "autotune" off cylinder 1.

The same could be reversed, for some strange reason cylinder 1 could drop timing while the others or happy, in that case the piggy will drop ignition via offset when its not really needed. Its just a bs system imo.

When I ran piggys I always ran them on meth for a reason. No cps offset, just raise boost if I could.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by FirstBMWLA

Question.
If COBB can log but not act on timing information from all cylinders and still relies on DME for per cylinder correction Why all the fuss about procede using cylinder 1 for it's reading?

I don't see how this can even come up. Cobb is a FLASH, not a piggyback. See Claps post on last page explaining.

[FirstBMWLA]

Originally Posted by themyst

I don't see how this can even come up. Cobb is a FLASH, not a piggyback. See Claps post on last page explaining.

I very well know it's a flash.
What good is logging timing of all cylinders if it still relies on the DME for cylinder to cylinder variance just as procede. I'm not gettin it I suppose

[themyst]

Originally Posted by FirstBMWLA

I very well know it's a flash.
What good is logging timing of all cylinders if it still relies on the DME for cylinder to cylinder variance just as procede. I'm not gettin it I suppose

Because the timing curve is remapped entirely?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by FirstBMWLA

I very well know it's a flash.
What good is logging timing of all cylinders if it still relies on the DME for cylinder to cylinder variance just as procede. I'm not gettin it I suppose

read my post above...

[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by FirstBMWLA

I very well know it's a flash.
What good is logging timing of all cylinders if it still relies on the DME for cylinder to cylinder variance just as procede. I'm not gettin it I suppose

Because with a flash the timing tables are already set/flashed in the DME, with a piggy the DME has it's set of tables and your using the piggy to manipulate the tables/give different readings to the DME which can lead to inconsitencies especially at high boost levels on pump no meth.

Flash tuning or standalones are the only "proper" ways to tune, if you look at it this way what other engine platform is still using piggy's? Hell even Vishnu the maker's of procede only offer reflashes for the Evo's and STi's. My question to Shiv is why they haven't offered a handheld reflash solution like Cobb n Giac. They obviously have the capability to do so.

[FirstBMWLA]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

Because with a flash the timing tables are already set/flashed in the DME, with a piggy the DME has it's set of tables and your using the piggy to manipulate the tables/give different readings to the DME which can lead to inconsitencies especially at high boost levels on pump no meth.

Flash tuning or standalones are the only "proper" ways to tune, if you look at it this way what other engine platform is still using piggy's? Hell even Vishnu the maker's of procede only offer reflashes for the Evo's and STi's. My question to Shiv is why they haven't offered a handheld reflash solution like Cobb n Giac. They obviously have the capability to do so.

So if procede was capable of monitoring all 6 cylinders and based it's tuning on an avg of some sort or something would that suffice?

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by ErvGotti

Because with a flash the timing tables are already set/flashed in the DME, with a piggy the DME has it's set of tables and your using the piggy to manipulate the tables/give different readings to the DME which can lead to inconsitencies especially at high boost levels on pump no meth.

Flash tuning or standalones are the only "proper" ways to tune, if you look at it this way what other engine platform is still using piggy's? Hell even Vishnu the maker's of procede only offer reflashes for the Evo's and STi's. My question to Shiv is why they haven't offered a handheld reflash solution like Cobb n Giac. They obviously have the capability to do so.

If they obviously had the capability they would obviously do it it's not easy, takes time and they were already selling units with no other flash really impacting their sales much so why bother if there was nothing better out there

[The Ghost]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Piggys have the advantage when it comes to race gas and meth, and that is something that will change as well.

I agree on the first point, which is why I'm not running Cobb (I love Cobb stuff).

I don't see how the meth integration of the Procede could be matched by any flash tune, as it doesn't have the hardware or maps to accommodate this. Even if you have a separate controller, this would be without the integration. It would work well, just as race gas does, but wouldn't account for variable meth flow (clogs, failure, etc.) in the DME (it would, of course react, but not pro-act, so to speak).

If this was different I'd switch. In the meantime, I've been satisfied with the 'cede/pwm as I'm not going to run both at the same time (probably the best option, but we're talking near $3k!).

-TG

[secretsquirrel]

[thebigragu99]

Clap please put your car on a two dynojet !! Let's see some real numbers and the power curve!

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by The Ghost

I agree on the first point, which is why I'm not running Cobb (I love Cobb stuff).

I don't see how the meth integration of the Procede could be matched by any flash tune, as it doesn't have the hardware or maps to accommodate this. Even if you have a separate controller, this would be without the integration. It would work well, just as race gas does, but wouldn't account for variable meth flow (clogs, failure, etc.) in the DME (it would, of course react, but not pro-act, so to speak).

If this was different I'd switch. In the meantime, I've been satisfied with the 'cede/pwm as I'm not going to run both at the same time (probably the best option, but we're talking near $3k!).

-TG

That's so true.

With the conservative timing values we are seeing on Cobb, I can't see them publishing a meth version with ignition advance table of 10 degrees plus throughout the entire rpm band.

The piggies can ride the floating stock timing curve and let it max out when the octane is right. The car feels way more responsive and alive. And with CPS offset, you have a bit of flexibility in how high you want that ceiling to go. Just like my old REVO flash that let the user reduce timing by indexing their timing table up or down by a couple of degrees. (Did I just say indexing? Isn't that what the piggies do...lol)

There is a lot of merit in making power/compression electronically via ignition rather than mechanically via lots of boost.

I just don't think the meth integration will be there to the same extent on flashes and that's where you will get people finding creative backdoor ways to manipulate those fixed timing tables.

People point to the fact that Cobb let's you view timing on all six cylinders.

Ok that's great.....but so what? I used to see the same thing with my Vag-Com software. Other than being able to advance or retard timing a few degress beyond their standard table which the Revo tune allowed......you were still stuck with their timing table.....which only went down when there was a knock reaction....just like the N54 platform does.

Even flash software is going to knock under bad conditions and the DME is going to pull timing....nothing new about this.

[Clap135]

fixed timing tables? omg you guys serious have NO idea how tuning works.
Cobb can set timing to whatever they pleasae, they can also adjust timing based on whatever parameter they please. One idea would be to base it of IAT.

[Tzu]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Why argue about things you can't prove/disprove at this time? Go to a dyno to make your point. I'll do the same next time I have a Procede/METH/DCI car handy. But I assure you, 400whp with 17 deg of advance/15psi at 6000rpm can quite easily make 400whp, give or take 5whp.

Surely dynos work in the rain, right?

Shiv

17 degrees? Why didnt you tell everyone that you need a rev2.5 and above to do that? And at least 94+ octane to achieve marginal safety? All the "meth + 91oct + 3 degrees" glory run BS is annoying. You "reccomend" no more than 2 degrees of advance for the average user. Why are you showing everyone advanced setpoints for a setup that they will never run consistantly on the street? Stop misleading people with power you claim which would never be run daily.

I'll save this for my V5 + PWM review. It's been a while in the making.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Tzu

17 degrees? Why didnt you tell everyone that you need a rev2.5 and above to do that? And at least 94+ octane to achieve marginal safety? All the "meth + 91oct + 3 degrees" glory run BS is annoying. You "reccomend" no more than 2 degrees of advance for the average user. Why are you showing everyone advanced setpoints for a setup that they will never run consistantly on the street? Stop misleading people with power you claim which would never be run daily.

I'll save this for my V5 + PWM review. It's been a while in the making.

Shiv I need to see this setup run at the track on pump gas...I really think this is a bad bad bad idea as even the stock tune will knock itself repeatedly with it's own timing curve let alone 2deg more

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Tzu

17 degrees? Why didnt you tell everyone that you need a rev2.5 and above to do that? And at least 94+ octane to achieve marginal safety? All the "meth + 91oct + 3 degrees" glory run BS is annoying. You "reccomend" no more than 2 degrees of advance for the average user. Why are you showing everyone advanced setpoints for a setup that they will never run consistantly on the street? Stop misleading people with power you claim which would never be run daily.

I'll save this for my V5 + PWM review. It's been a while in the making.

I am so happy more people are catching on to the bullshit spread in here.