[Raja Ventureshield]

the best days are to come IMHO. Some of the older bmw(s) were great but they weren't as reliable. Sure some have more personality than the newer cars, but if you configure it right - you can have a really nice special BMW now. The choices are infinite.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Rupes

These posts are always funny to me. I'm coming from an E46 M3, and everyone on the M3forums talks about how the E46 was the best car BMW ever made and their quality has been going down ever since.

On these forums it's that the E9x are the best, and the F30 is lacking in quality

I haven't read the F30 forums, but I'm guessing they hate some new prototype because it looks cheap.

Yep. Remember when the E36 came out? It was poorly built , too heavy, too expensive. The M3 was (gasp) $40,000!!!! The E30 was better.

Remember when the E46 came out? It was big, heavy, too soft, and too expensive. The E36 was so much better.

Remember when the E90 came out? It was so boring, and unreliable. The E46 was so much better.

Now that the F30 is out, it's cheap and too expensive. The E90 is (was) so much better.

I find these posts funny too. The nice thing for those people that like the older models is that there are a lot of them out there, and many are for sale.

Happy driving, no matter what you drive.

[funkle]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Was that the salesman at the Mini dealership or the VW dealership?

Pretty impressive powers of deduction you have there. Actually I'm in the market for a used BMW, so I'm spending a lot of time on the forums gathering info, and test driving. I've owned 2 BMWs FWIW, an e36 325is and an e46 330i.

[elcole]

You BMW guys are aggravating with the code thing- E46, E90... how about year and model? For someone like me trying to research a possible purchase it's maddening. I know you won't change- I was an Alfa nerd for awhile, but damn!

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by elcole

You BMW guys are aggravating with the code thing- E46, E90... how about year and model?

Because, especially with the 3 series, multiple chassis will overlap during a particular model year. For example, if in 2013 you wanted a 328i sedan, you got the F30 chassis. If you bought a 328i convertible, you just bought an E93. If you bought a 328i coupe, you bought an E92.

They're all 328i cars, but completely different chassis codes, and completely different cars.

Hang around BMW forums, it's a heck of a lot easier to identify a car by chassis code than explaining what model year and configuration the car is. And yes, some of us are utter BMW nerds.

[davesaddiction]

Originally Posted by elcole

You BMW guys are aggravating with the code thing- E46, E90... how about year and model? For someone like me trying to research a possible purchase it's maddening. I know you won't change- I was an Alfa nerd for awhile, but damn!

Ha! It's no "secret", but once you're around here for a bit, you do start learning and using the model designations like second nature...

E30 = 1st gen M3
E36 = 2nd gen M3
E46 = 3rd gen M3
E9x = 4th gen M3 (90 is sedan, 92 is coupe, 93 is convertible)

No more "E"... Only Fs...

[davesaddiction]

Travis Okulski on the 435i:

I hate to say this, but this car kind of stinks. Compared to everything else in the lineup, it rolls, has a soft brake pedal, and really indirect steering. Steering is the biggest disappointment, it's too light and the feedback levels just aren't what I need to place it in a corner.

The M4 better be epic, because on track, this is not.

http://jalopnik.com/driving-the-shit...u-c-1371519527

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by davesaddiction

Travis Okulski on the 435i:

I hate to say this, but this car kind of stinks. Compared to everything else in the lineup, it rolls, has a soft brake pedal, and really indirect steering. Steering is the biggest disappointment, it's too light and the feedback levels just aren't what I need to place it in a corner.

The M4 better be epic, because on track, this is not.

http://jalopnik.com/driving-the-shit...u-c-1371519527

Not a surprise.

Every other car there was the HIGH performance sporting variant. The M3/4 was not out yet, that is the high performance variant of the product line.

[TheSt|G]

It's all over.

[wantm135i]

ha ha ha wow really you think its over, i have a bmw x1 35i msport a e46m rolled up on me today we jumped at the same time 50 mph to the speed limit hee hee
and he couldnt pull away side by side ha ha iam stock iam getting ready to tune it. paradox has same bmw x1 he added tune ran 12.7 and 60 ft 1.7 what what bmw is very much alive.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by wantm135i

ha ha ha wow really you think its over, i have a bmw x1 35i msport a e46m rolled up on me today we jumped at the same time 50 mph to the speed limit hee hee
and he couldnt pull away side by side ha ha iam stock iam getting ready to tune it. paradox has same bmw x1 he added tune ran 12.7 and 60 ft 1.7 what what bmw is very much alive.

This mentality is exactly why BMW's best days are behind it. BMW have given up on the driving experience for the numbers games. With good reason-- it's the basis that people like this guy make their purchases on.

What are the best M3s? Arguably the e30 M3 and e46 CSL. Neither of them was particularly fast at accelerating compared to their contemporaries, but the driving experiences they offer are unrivaled.

BMW's best days are long, LONG over. At this point they make ONE car that I would enjoy owning, and its days are quickly coming to an end-- the e82 128i.

[davesaddiction]

Originally Posted by Obioban

This mentality is exactly why BMW's best days are behind it. BMW have given up on the driving experience for the numbers games. With good reason-- it's the basis that people like this guy make their purchases on.

What are the best M3s? Arguably the e30 M3 and e46 CSL. Neither of them was particularly fast at accelerating compared to their contemporaries, but the driving experiences they offer are unrivaled.

BMW's best days are long, LONG over. At this point they make ONE car that I would enjoy owning, and its days are quickly coming to an end-- the e82 128i.

I agree with your first couple sentences, but I truly hope that BMW can redeem themselves some with the upcoming M3/4 and M2/M235i. The video of the DTM guys driving the new cars at the 'Ring makes me think they might.

I'm planning to hold onto my E90 for a long time, but it does concern me that they are building fewer and fewer cars I'd be interested in owning.

My car is my first BMW, but I've aspired to own one for years. Hopefully all the BMWs I want to buy in the future won't be older than the one I have now...

[late apex]

Problem is enthusiasts often forget that they only make up a very small percentage of any manufacturer's overall sales. The masses do not want a stripped down & loud car lacking many of today's luxury features. They don't care as much about handling since they aren't taking cars to tracks and they don't drive out of their way to find a twisty road. All they want is the badge, comfort, and something to show off. I think most manufacturers are doing the best they can to cater to everyone, but I understand the problems they face.

When I was at my local dealer purchasing my M6 the dealer commented that is was refreshing to actually meet a car enthusiast buying an M car. He said the vast majority of customers that come in for an M car don't know the first about driving nor do they care. The car could weigh 5,000 lbs and have the handling of a school bus...most buyers are simply after the badge. Enthusiast on car forums complaining are what... 3% or 4% of sales?

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by late apex

Problem is enthusiasts often forget that they only make up a very small percentage of any manufacturer's overall sales. The masses do not want a stripped down & loud car lacking many of today's luxury features. They don't care as much about handling since they aren't taking cars to tracks and they don't drive out of their way to find a twisty road. All they want is the badge, comfort, and something to show off. I think most manufacturers are doing the best they can to cater to everyone, but I understand the problems they face.

When I was at my local dealer purchasing my M6 the dealer commented that is was refreshing to actually meet a car enthusiast buying an M car. He said the vast majority of customers that come in for an M car don't know the first about driving nor do they care. The car could weigh 5,000 lbs and have the handling of a school bus...most buyers are simply after the badge. Enthusiast on car forums complaining are what... 3% or 4% of sales?

I don't forget that I'm part of a small sales group. I just realize that BMW doesn't make anything that targets me anymore. The used to, but they've shifted to targeting non enthusiasts, and the product has followed (as have increased sales, since there's more of them).

In 2002, I wanted to own every car that BMW made. Today.... I want to own every car BMW made in 2002.

Today, the F30 3 series has worse driving dynamics than the competing Lexus or Cadillac. That statement would have been so absurd in 2002 that you would have instantly lost credibility for anything else you said.

BMW built their brand on appealing to enthusiasts (the 2002 and tii were what established them in the USA, and were the first sport sedans), and at this point have 100% forsaken us. It's certainly good for their short term sales, but I do wonder how it will effect them long term. The exact non enthusiast they're targeting buy them over Mercedes/Audis precisely because of their "ultimate driving machine" reputation. At some point, that will no longer be what they're known for... and then they're just a worse Mercedes.

[late apex]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't forget that I'm part of a small sales group. I just realize that BMW doesn't make anything that targets me anymore. The used to, but they've shifted to targeting non enthusiasts, and the product has followed (as have increased sales, since there's more of them).

In 2002, I wanted to own every car that BMW made. Today.... I want to own every car BMW made in 2002.

Today, the F30 3 series has worse driving dynamics than the competing Lexus or Cadillac. That statement would have been so absurd in 2002 that you would have instantly lost credibility for anything else you said.

BMW built their brand on appealing to enthusiasts (the 2002 and tii were what established them in the USA, and were the first sport sedans), and at this point have 100% forsaken us. It's certainly good for their short term sales, but I do wonder how it will effect them long term. The exact non enthusiast they're targeting buy them over Mercedes/Audis precisely because of their "ultimate driving machine" reputation. At some point, that will no longer be what they're known for... and then they're just a worse Mercedes.

What would you like to see BMW offer? The M cars are faster now than they have ever been, yet they're more efficient and luxurious. As long as BMW continues to improve performance, I don't think they've completely turned their backs on enthusiasts. They've simply taken on the challenge of appealing the masses while still offering something that enthusiasts can use on track or canyon roads.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't forget that I'm part of a small sales group. I just realize that BMW doesn't make anything that targets me anymore. The used to, but they've shifted to targeting non enthusiasts, and the product has followed (as have increased sales, since there's more of them).

In 2002, I wanted to own every car that BMW made. Today.... I want to own every car BMW made in 2002.

Today, the F30 3 series has worse driving dynamics than the competing Lexus or Cadillac. That statement would have been so absurd in 2002 that you would have instantly lost credibility for anything else you said.

I feel the same way, especially about wanting one of every model line around '02.

But what you said today, about the F30 vs IS and ATS, well it's less about BMW and more about the competency of the competition. And if you really drive the other cars, and you BUY a car based on the whole package, the BMW is still the winner.

Me personally, I like having both old and new. I love having an E36/7 as a toy and the F30 as a competent DD. I would not want either car to try and do both duties for me.

[Iron Man]

Originally Posted by Obioban

BMW built their brand on appealing to enthusiasts (the 2002 and tii were what established them in the USA, and were the first sport sedans), and at this point have 100% forsaken us. It's certainly good for their short term sales, but I do wonder how it will effect them long term. The exact non enthusiast they're targeting buy them over Mercedes/Audis precisely because of their "ultimate driving machine" reputation. At some point, that will no longer be what they're known for... and then they're just a worse Mercedes.

I think this is pretty common with a lot of companies. They start out making outstanding products that appeal to the discerning enthusiast, who are very outspoken about the product. More people hear about how great the product is, volume grows, the company grows, though eventually bean counters/MBAs take over and their mantra becomes volume, volume, volume...(for "survival" and "shareholder value")

Eventually, this alienates a large portion of their original enthusiast customers, who start to look elsewhere... I think as long as BMW continues to make real ///M models, they have a product for an enthusiast. The new models are just morphing at the moment due to all of the emission and CAFE changes coming in the next few years. If their engineers have any influence in the organization at all, they will continue to refine the product. Of course, the ///M badge whoring they have been doing lately is ludicrous.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by late apex

What would you like to see BMW offer? The M cars are faster now than they have ever been, yet they're more efficient and luxurious. As long as BMW continues to improve performance, I don't think they've completely turned their backs on enthusiasts. They've simply taken on the challenge of appealing the masses while still offering something that enthusiasts can use on track or canyon roads.

I don't care about "faster", I'm not racing. I want a car that is involving to drive. Circa 2002, every BMW was the best driving car in its class and everyone was involving/enjoyable. Today, their non M cars drive worse than the lexus/caddy competitors. Similarly, I don't want "luxury", as inevitably that really means isolation from the driving experience.

Traditionally, the non M BMWs were as sporty as they could be while keeping them comfortable enough for normal people to enjoy driving every day. The M cars took it a step further, compromising civility for absolute involvement in the driving experience. That's what I want. And deal breakers for me include electronic power steering, turbos, fake exhaust noise generators, automatic transmissions of any sort, run flats, etc.

What would I like to see BMW make? I'd like an e36 sized sedan with carbon fiber tub (ala i3) and an N52 with a 6mt. I'd like an i8 with all the electronic garbage removed and an S65 instead.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I feel the same way, especially about wanting one of every model line around '02.

But what you said today, about the F30 vs IS and ATS, well it's less about BMW and more about the competency of the competition. And if you really drive the other cars, and you BUY a car based on the whole package, the BMW is still the winner.

Me personally, I like having both old and new. I love having an E36/7 as a toy and the F30 as a competent DD. I would not want either car to try and do both duties for me.

I disagree completely. Modern BMWs are a significantly worse driving experience than their previous counterparts. The engines lag, the manuals suck to shift, the tires sucks, and the steering feel makes pushing the car to the limit... dicey. The competition absolutely has stepped up their came, but BMW completely fell off theirs (and onto a different game).

Originally Posted by Iron Man

I think this is pretty common with a lot of companies. They start out making outstanding products that appeal to the discerning enthusiast, who are very outspoken about the product. More people hear about how great the product is, volume grows, the company grows, though eventually bean counters/MBAs take over and their mantra becomes volume, volume, volume...(for "survival" and "shareholder value")

Eventually, this alienates a large portion of their original enthusiast customers, who start to look elsewhere... I think as long as BMW continues to make real ///M models, they have a product for an enthusiast. The new models are just morphing at the moment due to all of the emission and CAFE changes coming in the next few years. If their engineers have any influence in the organization at all, they will continue to refine the product. Of course, the ///M badge whoring they have been doing lately is ludicrous.

I don't think they make any real M models any more. Fake noise generators, turbos, SUVs, automated gear boxes. Moreover, what's "motorsport" about any of them (which is the very definition of M)? What current M car wouldn't be totally out of place on a track?

[late apex]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't care about "faster", I'm not racing. I want a car that is involving to drive. Circa 2002, every BMW was the best driving car in its class and everyone was involving/enjoyable. Today, their non M cars drive worse than the lexus/caddy competitors. Similarly, I don't want "luxury", as inevitably that really means isolation from the driving experience.

Traditionally, the non M BMWs were as sporty as they could be while keeping them comfortable enough for normal people to enjoy driving every day. The M cars took it a step further, compromising civility for absolute involvement in the driving experience. That's what I want. And deal breakers for me include electronic power steering, turbos, fake exhaust noise generators, automatic transmissions of any sort, run flats, etc.

What would I like to see BMW make? I'd like an e36 sized sedan with carbon fiber tub (ala i3) and an N52 with a 6mt. I'd like an i8 with all the electronic garbage removed and an S65 instead.



I disagree completely. Modern BMWs are a significantly worse driving experience than their previous counterparts. The engines lag, the manuals suck to shift, the tires sucks, and the steering feel makes pushing the car to the limit... dicey. The competition absolutely has stepped up their came, but BMW completely fell off theirs (and onto a different game).



I don't think they make any real M models any more. Fake noise generators, turbos, SUVs, automated gear boxes. Moreover, what's "motorsport" about any of them (which is the very definition of M)? What current M car wouldn't be totally out of place on a track?

Any car M division makes is a "real M car". Successful companies cannot live in the past, they have to continue with product development and keep up with modern trends. Not to mention be innovative and first to the market with certain things. If you like older BMWs, they're still around to be bought! Don't expect the company to stop progressing and move backwards... with the new regulations in place they couldn't do it even if they wanted. Porsche is known for producing driver's cars as well, yet they also have noise generators and automated gear boxes. Hell, some people are upset the new GT3 doesn't come with a manual. I like one Porsche's engineer response "Yes, we love manuals too, but we love winning even more!). No company is investing money in manual transmissions anymore... it's outdated technology. That would be like IT companies spending money on coax cable instead of fiber optic.

The new M cars are not out of place on a track! You're just not paying attention to them because they're not what they used to be (but they're faster than ever). Some people are slow to accept change, there's nothing wrong with that.

[wantm135i]

Ha Ha You Kill Me, I Owned A E46 M3 Cs Good Handling Smooth Ride Just Not Enough Power And When My Friend Got Me In His Jeep Srt That Day I Got Rid Of It. I Was Pissed. Because Before That I Owned A Audi S4 V6 Twin Turbo Had Every Thing Done To It . It Was Amazing Would Autocross It Take It To The Track, Kick Tail All Day Long, Or At Least Keep Up With Stuff. Guy From Ohio Saw It Made Me An Offer, And He Tracks It To This Day. I Sold It Thinking The Bmw Would Be The Step Up. No. So Years When By For The Right Car. Bmw Made A Sleeper The Bmw X1 35i Msport. Until You Drive It, You Wont Know How Good It Is Stock. I Just Received Kw Coils And The K-mac Camber Plates And Rear Camber Bars And Toe Adjustment Are On There Way. Also Tune Will Add 60 Hp And 80 Tq To The Ground. Sweet Sweet Please Check It Out I Think You Guys Will Like It. Last Car To Have Hydraulic Steering Its So Good.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I disagree completely. Modern BMWs are a significantly worse driving experience than their previous counterparts. The engines lag, the manuals suck to shift, the tires sucks, and the steering feel makes pushing the car to the limit... dicey. The competition absolutely has stepped up their came, but BMW completely fell off theirs (and onto a different game).

What are you disagreeing with in my statement?

I said nothing about old vs new. I said I like both, having BOTH in my stable for their specific strengths.

I feel like your statement is just exaggeration and lacks proper first hand experience, something I get every day by driving each of the two cars. Manuals suck to shift? What? Engines that lag? What?

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't forget that I'm part of a small sales group. I just realize that BMW doesn't make anything that targets me anymore. The used to, but they've shifted to targeting non enthusiasts, and the product has followed (as have increased sales, since there's more of them).

In 2002, I wanted to own every car that BMW made. Today.... I want to own every car BMW made in 2002.

Today, the F30 3 series has worse driving dynamics than the competing Lexus or Cadillac. That statement would have been so absurd in 2002 that you would have instantly lost credibility for anything else you said.

BMW built their brand on appealing to enthusiasts (the 2002 and tii were what established them in the USA, and were the first sport sedans), and at this point have 100% forsaken us. It's certainly good for their short term sales, but I do wonder how it will effect them long term. The exact non enthusiast they're targeting buy them over Mercedes/Audis precisely because of their "ultimate driving machine" reputation. At some point, that will no longer be what they're known for... and then they're just a worse Mercedes.

In 2002 you were 11 years younger. With every new generation of models, a portion of owners of previous models "ages out" because they're unwilling to accept change and progress. They're replaced by a mostly younger demographic who are open to advancements. No company is going to gear their future to a dying market share, because they wouldn't be around long. You can wail about the good old days as much as you want, but increasingly fewer people are listening. Thus it always has been, and will be.