[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

You've just helped illustrate my point; thank you.

If I've smoked all my life and I'm fine, but data from hundreds of thousands of users show that smoking increases death rates, the results are clear: smoking leads to a higher death rate.

However, if I claim that marijuana leads to overdose and death, but the data shows that out of hundreds of thousands of marijuana users, there are no overdose cases. You can make all the claims you want, but the data is clear.

It all comes down to the data. It's not about theories, feelings, or intricate discussions on BMW's mysterious software that we've been hearing about since 2007. The data provides the most reliable information for drawing conclusions and making decisions.

Please note: I have never tried marijuana; this is just an example to prove my point, similar to the smoking example.

It's evident that no matter what, you're not changing your opinion, so I'm going to let it go, we'll agree to disagree.

We both made our points clearly, and the readers can decide for themselves which argument makes more sense.

You are not getting off so easy.

What is clear from time spent on any car forum is modified cars are too often denied warranty coverage due to mod's. This doesn't stop some owners though.

And what is clear is for those blessed owners for whom modifications didn't appear to affect their car's warranty they are not able to pass on their good luck to other owners.

When you put your name on some warranty to back up your luck then I'll listen.

All I can do is point to the warranty booklet and what one has to do to keep the warranty in effect and what one should avoid to cause the warranty to become void.

It is up to the individual owner if he chooses to mod or not mod and is aware of the most likely result if there is a warranty claim. Fortunately for a number of owners of mod'd cars there is no warranty claim during the warranty period.

My experience with a number of cars was to have a warranty claim or several (or in two cases lots more than several) and thank goodness I had the sense to leave the car stock.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

You are not getting off so easy

Huh??

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

What is clear from time spent on any car forum is modified cars are too often denied warranty coverage due to mod's. This doesn't stop some owners though.

Where exactly are these individuals? Could you please provide us with links to the respective threads or posts? This forms the crux of my argument - our forum has been active for 15 years and has hundreds of thousands of users. We should have thousands of warranty denial instances if your assertion is correct. I'm still waiting for you to share these links.

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

When you put your name on some warranty to back up your luck then I'll listen.

I've voiced my perspective, as you have. The members of this forum can make their own decisions and bear the consequences thereof. The demand you're making is somewhat unreasonable. I'm not asking you to listen, I was done with this thread and ready to move on. You just don't want to let it go. Hence the first sentence in your response.

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

My experience with a number of cars was to have a warranty claim or several (or in two cases lots more than several) and thank goodness I had the sense to leave the car stock.

As previously stated, if your warranty claim is connected to a modification you've made, the dealership can deny a free repair. This is not a point of contention. However, if the issue is unrelated to your modification, your warranty should still apply.

For instance, if you have a tune and your headlight fails, your dealership cannot refuse the warranty work. If you cause damage to the engine due to your mods, that's a different situation entirely.

Ultimately, the decision to modify your vehicle and potentially risk your warranty falls on you, the owner. It balances the enhancements you want and the potential risk involved.

[MASHCT]

All of these people claiming the dealer voids the warranty, even for speakers... give me a flipping break. One complaint to the FTC, that dealer will go down in flames. The dealer cannot void the warranty - only BMW can.

And third party parts cannot in & of themselves void a warranty. So if you slap an aftermarket downpipe on your car, BMW cannot void your warranty simply because of that part. They are REQUIRED under Magnussen to supply OEM parts FOR FREE if they want to claim you can only use OEM parts, and/or only BMW dealers for repairs.

Mike @ x-ph is 100% correct & doesn't need to warrant anything for what he is stating as simple fact: Only if an aftermarket part causes subsequent damage to the vehicle can BMW say they will not fix the damage under their OEM warranty.

If y'all so scared of modifying your car - don't do it, plain & simple. TONS & TONS of people in this very forum mod their car (aka: use aftermarket parts) without voiding their warranty. Those that let a dealer bully them into doing so are just plain misinformed & have no idea how to seek recourse under the law.

If you let your dealer void your warranty simply because you have aftermarket parts in your car, then frankly, don't modify your car. So much anecdotal BS on here about voided warranties... not a single real example in the thread. And when Mike says he's modded his cars without issue for 10 years, everyone discounts his real, actual experience. Give me a break.

Sorry for the rant, but after being on this forum for 8 years & seeing non-stop BS worry wart posts about mods & warranty... it gets tiring. Same ol' naysayer BS & not a single shred of evidence that the refusal to repair was solely based on the existence of an aftermarket part.

There are laws to protect you from such nonsense & if you fail to take advantage of them & let the dealer make claims like that without consequence, shame on you. I've asked my BMW dealer MANY times about mods - their answer is always the same: unless the mod causes the damage, the mod itself doesn't void the warranty. Period. It's the friggin' law, people.

Right off of FTC's own website:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news...-use-its-parts

[islandfalconer]

I’ve had a bunch of cars. Some factory tuned for racing. Some I’ve built and had tuned. In a dozen cars I’ve had one dealership/brand support and do warranty work on my tuned car. And that was my Mitsubishi Evo X. Now I’ve never had a dealer give me any issues for car back exhaust. Never had any issues with intakes, or bolt ons. Now of course suspensions not covered once you mess with that. It really comes down to individual dealers, and what they are willing to do. No two dealers are ever the same.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by islandfalconer

I’ve had a bunch of cars. Some factory tuned for racing. Some I’ve built and had tuned. In a dozen cars I’ve had one dealership/brand support and do warranty work on my tuned car. And that was my Mitsubishi Evo X. Now I’ve never had a dealer give me any issues for car back exhaust. Never had any issues with intakes, or bolt ons. Now of course suspensions not covered once you mess with that. It really comes down to individual dealers, and what they are willing to do. No two dealers are ever the same.

With BMW it isn't the dealer that always makes the decision. My BMW tech told me it's like health insurance. Something comes in that has to be fixed under warranty they need to submit it to BMWNA for approval. If it's over a certain amount, or something "fishy" (ie presence of mods) then BMW sends an independent regional rep out to look at the car and make a decision, the dealer has no say...but for most things (which are usually little) it is just documented and approved with little intervention from BMWNA.

If it is something as simple as you have coded your car improperly (ie you coded ASD off or legal disclaimers off but it leaves an error on one of the modules you coded) or have an ECU tune then it is possible your car gets 'flagged' in BMWs database when they do their standard scope check (ie hook the car up and scan all the ECUs for errors every time it enters the shop). Once flagged it is always flagged (even if you reverse your coding changes for instance), and if a flagged car comes in with a warranty claim then BMW will scrutinize it more than an unflagged car. I don't think BMW's intent is to be d*ckish about it but rather not have to foot the bill for expensive claims related to mods. Sure you have an exhaust on your car and a bushing goes bad in the suspension no worries.

But I realize some dealers can be total gentleman sausages about potential warranty claims or question certain things on your car, and one recourse you have is to ask if they had the regional rep inspect the car as an independent check against what the dealer is saying but issues unrelated to mods are covered. Granted there will be grey areas - if your rotors go bad early but you've been using iSweep 1500s for example, you're paying for new rotors...etc.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

You can ask the SM about mods you have in mind. Be aware what he says means nothing. Rather it is what the factory spells out in the warranty booklet what is covered what is not covered.

I do not have a warranty booklet with my M2. Just searched and found a PDF online.

Here is the link I used:

https://www.bmwusa.com/explore/bmw-v...nty-books.html

A paste from the document:

WHAT IS NOT COVERED
The car or any part of the car, unless the failure causes the car to fail to conform to the applicable emission regulations.

Malfunctions, including consequential, caused by negligence, misuse/improper operation of the vehicle, environmental influ- ences, flood, accident or fire damage.

Malfunctions, including consequential, caused by improper adjustment/repair, modification, alteration, tampering, discon- nection, improper or inadequate maintenance except if one or more of these occurred as a result of repair work that was performed by an authorized BMW center under warranty.

For gasoline engines malfunctions caused by the use of leaded fuel or fuels containing more than 25% ethanol, or other oxygenates with more than 2.8% oxygen by weight (i.e., more than 15% MTBE or more than 3% methanol plus an equivalent amount of co-solvent and/or as specified in the Owner’s Manual).
Spark plugs, filters, and similar maintenance items are not covered under this warranty at or beyond the first replacement interval, or if the part has been replaced earlier for reasons other than it being defective.

Any car on which the odometer has been replaced or altered and the true mileage cannot be determined.

Any car on which the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is altered and/or cannot be determined.

Wow it's telling you right there it can adjust out to E25.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hankey

With BMW it isn't the dealer that always makes the decision. My BMW tech told me it's like health insurance. Something comes in that has to be fixed under warranty they need to submit it to BMWNA for approval. If it's over a certain amount, or something "fishy" (ie presence of mods) then BMW sends an independent regional rep out to look at the car and make a decision, the dealer has no say...but for most things (which are usually little) it is just documented and approved with little intervention from BMWNA.

This is exactly right. I had my steering wheel be slightly off-center (likely from the port-install process of my MP HAS), and told my SA that I'd have them adjust it during the break-in service.

He said, "no, no, bring it right away. BMW NA gives more and more hassle to approve alignment under warranty the more miles the car has". I brought it in. And I still had to wait a day and 1/2 (for a simple alignment) because BMW NA had to send a regional tech to inspect. They said it was "because they are seeing too many cases of off-centered steering and wanted to document it and root cause it".

BMW NA and other OEMs have become much more "procedural and stringent" on warranty repairs as they collect more and more data from the cars, and use AI to spot warranty abuse or dealer leniency.

And for all of those saying that US Federal law bars them from doing x or y unless they prove a mod caused the issue, you are completely misinformed on how the law works in practice.

BMW NA or any other OEM can simply deny the warranty repair with a reason being "the vehicle has been modified". Now it is up to YOU to use federal or state law to have the decision reversed. What are you going to do? Hire a lawyer and spend thousands of dollars and a 2-3 years on the hope of prevailing in the end? That is the reality of trying to enforce a law. On top of that, you probably agreed to arbitration when you purchased your vehicle, so you have to go through that first before even having a viable lawsuit to pursue.

Net/net is BMW weighs reputational damage and customer sat/retention as the main check to being more strict in denying warranty repairs. Not federal law.

So, if you have a warranty dispute, work it out as a valued and reasonable customer and step down from the federal law pedestal.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by baron95

This is exactly right. I had my steering wheel be slightly off-center (likely from the port-install process of my MP HAS), and told my SA that I'd have them adjust it during the break-in service.

He said, "no, no, bring it right away. BMW NA gives more and more hassle to approve alignment under warranty the more miles the car has". I brought it in. And I still had to wait a day and 1/2 (for a simple alignment) because BMW NA had to send a regional tech to inspect. They said it was "because they are seeing too many cases of off-centered steering and wanted to document it and root cause it".

BMW NA and other OEMs have become much more "procedural and stringent" on warranty repairs as they collect more and more data from the cars, and use AI to spot warranty abuse or dealer leniency.

And for all of those saying that US Federal law bars them from doing x or y unless they prove a mod caused the issue, you are completely misinformed on how the law works in practice.

BMW NA or any other OEM can simply deny the warranty repair with a reason being "the vehicle has been modified". Now it is up to YOU to use federal or state law to have the decision reversed. What are you going to do? Hire a lawyer and spend thousands of dollars and a 2-3 years on the hope of prevailing in the end? That is the reality of trying to enforce a law. On top of that, you probably agreed to arbitration when you purchased your vehicle, so you have to go through that first before even having a viable lawsuit to pursue.

Net/net is BMW weighs reputational damage and customer sat/retention [...]

I appreciate that they act on things they are seeing on the warranty end of things. It’s not just all about “denying claims”

Although I’ve seen so many discuss the alignment thing, especially in the setting if MP-HAS install that was going to ask my dealer to just do a 4 wheel alignment before I even take delivery.

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by baron95

BMW NA or any other OEM can simply deny the warranty repair with a reason being "the vehicle has been modified". Now it is up to YOU to use federal or state law to have the decision reversed. What are you going to do? Hire a lawyer and spend thousands of dollars and a 2-3 years on the hope of prevailing in the end? That is the reality of trying to enforce a law. On top of that, you probably agreed to arbitration when you purchased your vehicle, so you have to go through that first before even having a viable lawsuit to pursue.

Net/net is BMW weighs reputational damage and customer sat/retention as the main check to being more strict in denying warranty repairs. Not federal law.

So, if you have a warranty dispute, work it out as a valued and reasonable customer and step down from the federal law pedestal.

That's literally not how the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act works. It EXPLICITLY states that the WARRANTOR has to prove material cause for denial of services under a warranty contract, not the consumer.

[mike@x-ph.com]

The debate about warranties is ironic. It shows how people can be set in their ways, doing everything and using every argument to prove they're right rather than considering they might be mistaken.

We continue to discuss laws and BMW's supposed secret software as if these were just released with no data to study. However, we have 15 years of data from this forum, covering hundreds of thousands of tuned cars, many of which were under warranty or leased at some point. If warranties were an issue, it would be on the first page of every section. Clearly, it's not an issue.

The risk of damage is very minimal, as proven by the data. That said, if you're uncomfortable with even a minimal risk, keeping your car stock is best. But let's not exaggerate the situation to justify unnecessary fears.

Note: im not referring to a specific poster on this thread so please, no one takes it personally. im just giving my opinion on the entire discussion where we refuse to look at the data and instead discuss hypotheticals

[ourlee]

Sorry for the rant, but after being on this forum for 8 years & seeing non-stop BS worry wart posts about mods & warranty... it gets tiring. Same ol' naysayer BS & not a single shred of evidence that the refusal to repair was solely based on the existence of an aftermarket part.

Ur so silly check VAG tuning

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

BMW's supposed secret software

Nothing secret about it. It exists. Plenty of posts about it over the past 12+ years, nothing to downplay here between E-Sys and ISTA and these newer FDL coding phone apps. Not hand wringing. Pretty much worst case is the car gets flagged…what does that mean? Well depends on if you have a problem.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

The debate about warranties is ironic. It shows how people can be set in their ways, doing everything and using every argument to prove they're right rather than considering they might be mistaken.

We continue to discuss laws and BMW's supposed secret software as if these were just released with no data to study. However, we have 15 years of data from this forum, covering hundreds of thousands of tuned cars, many of which were under warranty or leased at some point. If warranties were an issue, it would be on the first page of every section. Clearly, it's not an issue.

The risk of damage is very minimal, as proven by the data. That said, if you're uncomfortable with even a minimal risk, keeping your car stock is best. But let's not exaggerate the situation to justify unnecessary fears.

Note: im not referring to a specific poster on this thread so please, no one takes it personally. im just giving my opinion on the entire discussion where we refuse to look at the data and instead discuss hypotheticals

I generally agree with most of what you say. Actual data/experience is always more important than theoretical possible outcomes.

I just submit to you that BMW now has a lot more data on their newer cars. So the experience of a tuned E92 is not going to be very relevant to a tuned G80.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hankey

Nothing secret about it. It exists. Plenty of posts about it over the past 12+ years, nothing to downplay here between E-Sys and ISTA and these newer FDL coding phone apps. Not hand wringing. Pretty much worst case is the car gets flagged…what does that mean? Well depends on if you have a problem.

Considering the vast number of tuned cars, how many actually face warranty denial? 80%, 50%, 30%, 10%, 1%, or perhaps as low as 0.001%?

From all available data and a quick search on forums, the likelihood of a warranty being flagged appears to be closer to 0%. If there are hundreds or thousands of threads about warranty failures, please send me the links.

As I've mentioned before, there's a risk in everything. If someone chooses not to modify their car, that's completely their prerogative. However, let's not exaggerate the risks to fuel unnecessary fears. The evidence overwhelmingly shows that voided warranties are not a widespread issue.

Originally Posted by baron95

I generally agree with most of what you say. Actual data/experience is always more important than theoretical possible outcomes.

I just submit to you that BMW now has a lot more data on their newer cars. So the experience of a tuned E92 is not going to be very relevant to a tuned G80.

Each platform may differ, but the data shows consistent results across the board. Based on my daliy activity on the G80 forums, I haven't noticed an increase in threads related to warranty issues. its still very close to 0%

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

However, let's not exaggerate the risks to fuel unnecessary fears. The evidence overwhelmingly shows that voided warranties are not a widespread issue.

Not fueling fears. Just stating facts that they can detect software changes and flag your car. That’s all I said. What does flagging mean? I had both of my F80s flagged by my dealer, the first simply for routine coding things a lot of us do. They brought it to my attention and wanted to know if I was “tuned.” Never had any warranty claims or issues after that but was informed they flagged the car.

Second car was tuned (flash tune), they picked up on it and told me my engine and drivetrain warranty was voided when I picked it up. They had someone from BMWNA come out to confirm it. Had they just asked me I would have told them, I know what I’m on the hook for. Oil change that took 2 days…because the rep had to come out to look at it.

You don’t know the numbers either so the answer is somewhere in the middle. This coming from a sales rep appears less than objective and self serving. Just saying.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Wow it's telling you right there it can adjust out to E25.

While 25% ethanol is stated as acceptable in the warranty PDF I found and pasted that from I'd not bet the car's engine or engine warranty that using E25 would be ok.

I'd err on the side of caution and stick with IIRC E15 which is what the owners manual sets as the limit.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hankey

Not fueling fears. Just stating facts that they can detect software changes and flag your car. That’s all I said. What does flagging mean? I had both of my F80s flagged by my dealer, the first simply for routine coding things a lot of us do. They brought it to my attention and wanted to know if I was “tuned.” Never had any warranty claims or issues after that but was informed they flagged the car.

Second car was tuned (flash tune), they picked up on it and told me my engine and drivetrain warranty was voided when I picked it up. They had someone from BMWNA come out to confirm it. Had they just asked me I would have told them, I know what I’m on the hook for. Oil change that took 2 days…because the rep had to come out to look at it.

You don’t know the numbers either so the answer is somewhere in the middle. This coming from a sales rep appears less than objective and self serving. Just saying.

Whether they know is irrelevant, im sure they know if they dig deep enough as it's not that hard. The question here is whether this voids your warranty on unrelated claims. It's not a mystery; the answer is no, they cannot void your warranty on unrelated claims.

1- I said it before, and I will say again, if your upgrade damaged the car, the warranty work will not be covered for free. That's why it is important to get proven brands and use the recommended maps only

2- if your warranty claim is not caused by your upgrade, the warranty will not be affected.

These statements are supported by the experiences of hundreds of thousands of users over 15 years. This isn't a matter of debate or uncertainty; the answers are well-established. However, it appears that some people (not referring to you) choose to justify their decision not to upgrade their cars by spreading fears with no data to back it.

[M_Power Rob]

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

This entire thread is a repost from 2008, back when BMS released their tuners (which used to be called TT tuners), and people started claiming piggybacks will kill your engine and void your warranty

Im still waiting for that to happen, but what's more ironic is that some of the people on these threads from years ago still make the same claims

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

This entire thread is a repost from 2008, back when BMS released their tuners (which used to be called TT tuners), and people started claiming piggybacks will kill your engine and void your warranty

Im still waiting for that to happen, but what's more ironic is that some of the people on these threads from years ago still make the same claims

That repost I did was not directed at you but at this thread, and the fact that no matter what is posted, the responses keep flying.

I hear you (and agree)...I guess some are falling on their laurels that even a broken clock is right once a day.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

That repost I did was not directed at you but at this thread, and the fact that no matter what is posted, the responses keep flying.

I hear you (and agree)...I guess some are falling on their laurels that even a broken clock is right once a day.

I always tell myself that I won't respond to these threads anymore, but no matter how hard I try