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      06-06-2022, 10:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by conradb58 View Post
PS4S tires are phenomenal if anyone tells you other wise they are completely wrong & most don't even drive at the limit of this tire.


I’m here to tell you otherwise.
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      06-07-2022, 01:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by conradb58 View Post
PS4S tires are phenomenal if anyone tells you other wise they are completely wrong & most don't even drive at the limit of this tire.


I’m here to tell you otherwise.
Quite respectfully, I've had this discussion with multiple fast Nordschleife drivers and everyone is on the same page that most drivers will not drive at the limit of their modifications or tires. I see people on bimmerpost complaining about PS4S like it is a terrible tire and that simply isn't correct. Most of them don't even have a proper alignment or the tire pressures set correctly.

I can agree with you in the aspect of this is not a tire you should attempt a lap record on but this tire does have its place on the track.
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      06-07-2022, 01:29 AM   #25
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You have driven on the Nordschleife by your F80 picture and you know in the car park that if other drivers are not on a semi-slick they are on a PS4S
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      06-07-2022, 08:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb58 View Post
You have driven on the Nordschleife by your F80 picture and you know in the car park that if other drivers are not on a semi-slick they are on a PS4S
They aren’t bad tires at all, and BMW has some interesting formulations on their recent M cars that are measurably faster on track. I’m guessing even as much as 6-7 seconds on the Nordschleife. In the US, I am using these as daily drivers and rain tires for track, and carry slicks on the rear seat for dry weather track work.

That said if you are really fast, the PS4S are not a good choice. They have a narrow optimal temperature operating window of about 10 min (plus minus, depending on track, temps, driver etc) after which as you have noted they become greasy. But that isn’t the biggest issue. It’s that as you drive quickly, the super-special-secret-sauce Michelin soft outer shoulder compound (which gives it such nice cornering capabilities) is the first to wear away. Such that by half day (or full day) the outer shoulder is literally gone, and the tires unusable. Michelin uses this technique of a soft but grippy outer shoulder compound on other tires, including the Cup2. Which is why even the Cup2 is not a perfect choice for track tires. My friends who run GT3 and GT3 RS’s have found this to be true as well, so it isn’t a BMW problem.

Not driving on PS4S on track is as much a function of chasing better times as it is a function of not destroying such expensive tires without much benefit.

This wear pattern can be reduced by increasing the front negative camber (perhaps via camber plates) but it will only take you so far. BTW the rear tire wear is much better/more even, BMW has nailed that part since the F8x generation.

There are better, more durable tires for track work. I would favor durability over reduced lap times anyway, as a sound driver development tool. Durability and progressiveness is where you begin tire wise. What you want is consistent lap times for 30 min at a stretch, so that you can concentrate on learning the other 100 things you have to master on track.

Free advice here, hard earned over 20 years of track experience and expenses. You don’t have to take it, but soon enough if you keep tracking the car you will be back here telling us about the incredible wear on the PS4S.
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      06-07-2022, 09:06 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb58 View Post
You have driven on the Nordschleife by your F80 picture and you know in the car park that if other drivers are not on a semi-slick they are on a PS4S
They aren’t bad tires at all, and BMW has some interesting formulations on their recent M cars that are measurably faster on track. I’m guessing even as much as 6-7 seconds on the Nordschleife. In the US, I am using these as daily drivers and rain tires for track, and carry slicks on the rear seat for dry weather track work.

That said if you are really fast, the PS4S are not a good choice. They have a narrow optimal temperature operating window of about 10 min (plus minus, depending on track, temps, driver etc) after which as you have noted they become greasy. But that isn’t the biggest issue. It’s that as you drive quickly, the super-special-secret-sauce Michelin soft outer shoulder compound (which gives it such nice cornering capabilities) is the first to wear away. Such that by half day (or full day) the outer shoulder is literally gone, and the tires unusable. Michelin uses this technique of a soft but grippy outer shoulder compound on other tires, including the Cup2. Which is why even the Cup2 is not a perfect choice for track tires. My friends who run GT3 and GT3 RS’s have found this to be true as well, so it isn’t a BMW problem.

Not driving on PS4S on track is as much a function of chasing better times as it is a function of not destroying such expensive tires without much benefit.

This wear pattern can be reduced by increasing the front negative camber (perhaps via camber plates) but it will only take you so far. BTW the rear tire wear is much better/more even, BMW has nailed that part since the F8x generation.

There are better, more durable tires for track work. I would favor durability over reduced lap times anyway, as a sound driver development tool. Durability and progressiveness is where you begin tire wise. What you want is consistent lap times for 30 min at a stretch, so that you can concentrate on learning the other 100 things you have to master on track.

Free advice here, hard earned over 20 years of track experience and expenses. You don’t have to take it, but soon enough if you keep tracking the car you will be back here telling us about the incredible wear on the PS4S.
My original statement was they are phenomenal tires your rebuttal was let me tell you otherwise. The way you phrased your statement makes it seems like PS4S are sh*t which is not at all true.

I am not doubting your ability to drive and your experience but you must consider that slicks are not road legal tires and are only approved on Nordschleife track days which can run upwards of 800€ for 1-2 days of driving which is not at all worth it for me at least. There are stark differences between Germany and America and how Germans set up their cars. The Apex G80 Taxi is on Cup 2s and gets 80 laps on the car with 3 passengers running sub-8 min laps. The math comes out to 1,678.4km or 1042miles and some change which is quite impressive for track miles.

With heat management we are not driving around a 3km circle for 15-30 min stints people are doing 1-2laps cooling the car, the brakes and going back on track.

I stand by what I say with the PS4S* and when they are finished I'll be on semi slicks but until then I will be on this tire.

I appreciate your comments and feedback, truly.
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      06-08-2022, 12:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb58 View Post
I was pacing around 9:15-9:30. Still trying to learn the car and and see how far I can push it. We didn't have the tire pressures set correctly until the second day.
Hey man, I think it’s great your enjoying your car, especially at the Nürburgring! Pace is irrelevant, the most important is having fun and bringing the car home.

Having said this. If you’re running 9-9:30 BTG I think it’s premature to make this thread. You’re not even remotely close to its limitations, therefore this isn’t really meaningful feedback regarding brakes and suspension, etc.

Try running the PS4S below 2.5 warm. I was running 2.1-2.2 warm on the F87 M2. I highly doubt 2.8 will be the sweet spot, but I may be wrong
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      06-08-2022, 12:33 PM   #29
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Also. PS4S work great on the Nordschleife. They struggle at very high temperatures, which are usually a problem on GP Tracks. NOS not so much. Been there often with PS4S and always a joy.

Now I keep them as rain tires for the Nordschleife. Cup2 ftw
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      06-08-2022, 02:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratcher View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb58 View Post
I was pacing around 9:15-9:30. Still trying to learn the car and and see how far I can push it. We didn't have the tire pressures set correctly until the second day.
Hey man, I think it’s great your enjoying your car, especially at the Nürburgring! Pace is irrelevant, the most important is having fun and bringing the car home.

Having said this. If you’re running 9-9:30 BTG I think it’s premature to make this thread. You’re not even remotely close to its limitations, therefore this isn’t really meaningful feedback regarding brakes and suspension, etc.

Try running the PS4S below 2.5 warm. I was running 2.1-2.2 warm on the F87 M2. I highly doubt 2.8 will be the sweet spot, but I may be wrong
You're right, I did 2 laps on the short days last week and brought the car to apex and let misha drive & he drove a hell of a lot faster than I did. His video will come out at some point maybe this week or next.

I put this thread out for the average person or driver to see potential in the car and inspire maybe someone to purchase. It seems as though the general consensus on Bimmerpost is, "why don't you buy an M if you're gonna track it", lol. So this thread is for people like myself that enjoys the racetrack because it is legal fun and goes whenever they are able to go ,outside variables due to distance, time off, lifestyle, etc. With that being said there are very few individuals in general who are willing or are able to go extremely fast in a stock vehicle just for the sake of it. For myself I'd rather get suspension & brakes first and then start chipping away at the time like I did with my last car.

Thanks for the comment on the PS4S , there aren't very many members here who drove on the NOS so I know it's taboo for it to be a "track tire" of some sort.

Next tire for me is AR-1 when the stock tires are ready to be recycled.
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      06-08-2022, 02:45 PM   #31
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Yeah just don't listen to people take haven't really been there. It is 100% a track like no other, can't compare to anything else. I've been to a few.

You know it's funny, last time I went to the Nordschleife was in April, I found out the day before that my cup2 tires at the front were actually kinda damaged. Was sad af, I only had another set of wheels with PS4S and I was thinking it would be boring af to drive with regular UHP tires. Went for it anyway. Had a BLAST!
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      06-08-2022, 04:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Yeah just don't listen to people take haven't really been there. It is 100% a track like no other, can't compare to anything else. I've been to a few.

You know it's funny, last time I went to the Nordschleife was in April, I found out the day before that my cup2 tires at the front were actually kinda damaged. Was sad af, I only had another set of wheels with PS4S and I was thinking it would be boring af to drive with regular UHP tires. Went for it anyway. Had a BLAST!
that's sweet man glad you had a blast, fun fact the NOS is the very first track I've ever driven on moving from the US I've never tracked before. Haha
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      06-09-2022, 10:37 AM   #33
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Great thread. Thanks for sharing. If I didn't have and love my M340i, I'd have this car, but the two are minimally different.
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      06-09-2022, 07:40 PM   #34
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This is awesome! Great summary, can't wait to check out Micha's video on YouTube.
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      06-13-2022, 02:13 PM   #35
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This is awesome! Great summary, can't wait to check out Micha's video on YouTube.
Video was posted today!!! Time stamp says lap time was roughly 8:03 BTG.

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      06-13-2022, 02:20 PM   #36
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Great video, watched it earlier.
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