[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Yeah, I gotta agree I don't understand what point he was trying to make, felt like moving the goalposts.

Here's what I've took away from the reviews we got. I see three categories:

1. The professional reviewers, generally don't like the numbness but admittedly they are very sensitive to that by nature. But they ALSO give the M2 good marks on practicality, performance, comfort. So yeah, they are gonna critique, but even SG couldn't actually provide a real alternative (i.e. a car that is a 4 seater AND in production). I pay attention to these reviews but with a critical eye.

2. There's a class of amateur drivers who don't actually seem to understand limit driving or performance nuances (like this review, or TH). I disregard them outright. (Nissan Z lol)

3. There's a class of enthusiasts who are not reviewers but actually doing real-world stuff. (Jackie, Tuxon, Daily Downshift). These vids are the most useful to me. And generally, all of these folks are having FUN and that matters most to me.

For example, sure, Jackie will mod his car because that is what track teams do. But even in the stock car, he was laughing his ass off in joy tossing it around the track. He should be jaded since he drives a modded Supra, but instead he was having a blast. That matters!

I'd take EVERYONE with a heavy grain of salt. My understanding is that Jackie Ding actually purchased the car, it's not a press vehicle. That's obviously going to introduce some biases (see: Thomas from throttle house and his feelings about the F87.)

In addition Jackie Ding absolutely stands to benefit monetarily if people are interested in his journey with the M2. People are more likely to follow along if he loves the car than if he were just luke warm on it.

Now, this is not to say Jackie Ding is lying to anyone or that his feelings aren't anything less than genuine. I'm just saying, everyone has biases and it's good to keep these things in mind when watching this stuff. Nobody is objectively reviewing cars.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by Moflow

I'd take EVERYONE with a heavy grain of salt. My understanding is that Jackie Ding actually purchased the car, it's not a press vehicle. That's obviously going to introduce some biases (see: Thomas from throttle house and his feelings about the F87.)

In addition Jackie Ding absolutely stands to benefit monetarily if people are interested in his journey with the M2. People are more likely to follow along if he loves the car than if he were just luke warm on it.

Now, this is not to say Jackie Ding is lying to anyone or that his feelings aren't anything less than genuine. I'm just saying, everyone has biases and it's good to keep these things in mind when watching this stuff. Nobody is objectively reviewing cars.

Excellent points sir. That goes to why I was shocked when the thread popped up about cancelling orders based on the TH review. I didn't realize, until G87, just how seriously some people take these things, when they shouldn't be, IMO.

I gladly admit to giving Jackie more credence than the people in this video, but I also am not, nor would I ever, completely change a decision based on his input.

Grain of salt nails it simply.

[heavyD^2]

I don't know about you guys but I won't buy any car that doesn't ace their cliche corner test.

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I don't know about you guys but I won't buy any car that doesn't ace their cliche corner test.

Agreed, this has been the benchmark for all my purchases...

[Tag]

I've noticed over the past few weeks that by the time a thread gets to the 2nd or 3rd page they tend to spiral into arguments. I'm not talking about threads that make the front page, that's expected when outsiders enter the forum. I honestly don't know what's changed here. I expect that on older forums like the F87 that's been around for years but on a relatively new forum, with a car that has just launched and with people that have yet to get their cars? What in dafuq.

[mitchels]

Maybe we need to have a more open mind when watching these reviews. It seems like most people here bash any negative comments towards the M2. Any positive reviews would be treated like the absolute holy truth like Jackie's review.

So many people talk about Jackie's rave review here but I think the comments by the pro driver in the SG video is insightful too.

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by mitchels

Maybe we need to have a more open mind when watching these reviews. It seems like most people here bash any negative comments towards the M2. Any positive reviews would be treated like the absolute holy truth like Jackie's review.

So many people talk about Jackie's rave review here but I think the comments by the pro driver in the SG video is insightful too.

There are literally 18 pages discussing that video lol. Do we really need to repeat that over here.

[mitchels]

Originally Posted by CodeSlinger

There are literally 18 pages discussing that video lol. Do we really need to repeat that over here.

I read all of those pages. Very little people mentioned the pro drivers comments. They only talked about Mark and Jack's comments. I tried to link to timestamp where Jack interviewed the pro driver. Pretty much he said he preferred the older M2 because the new one felt too artificial even though it's slower. I mention the pro driver bc he's not an "influencer" but a driver like Jackie who everyone here loves.

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by Tag

@16m10s

Just goes to show that even if a car is objectively better people won't want it if it subjectively doesn't appeal to them.

I'm in the camp that buys performance/feel first, appearance second.

Most folks preferred the look of my R8 Spyder vs my 991.2TT yet the turbo killed it in terms of overall performance.

My wife refused to be seen in the TT so there was also that benefit...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by mitchels

I read all of those pages. Very little people mentioned the pro drivers comments. They only talked about Mark and Jack's comments. I tried to link to timestamp where Jack interviewed the pro driver. Pretty much he said he preferred the older M2 because the new one felt too artificial even though it's slower. I mention the pro driver bc he's not an "influencer" but a driver like Jackie who everyone here loves.

careful... you might run into selective bias here

one track driver's comments don't matter... another one's do

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Same as with the Supra 6MT, the 400Z is locked behind trashy dealerships as unobtanium. The few that I've seen local to me were either automatic or marked up by $20,000+. I don't care how much "better" some YouTuber thinks a car is if I can't test drive it or buy it.

I was wondering why I have yet to see a new Z in the wild.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by D22M2

All these less than great reviews are starting to get to me

Bummed cause I love the way this car looks .

Don't worry about these reviews; I can tell you definitively that the G87 is a fantastic car and the S58 + M3 underpinnings in a car with this wheelbase at this price is something you don't want to miss.

Disclaimer about the 6MT version. I have spent extensive time with both the 6MT and ZF8 auto, both are excellent. The 6MT car feels less lively than the ZF8 during normal driving. The combo of a linear powerband and fewer gears means you're spending more time moving through the weaker part of the torque curve. You simply have to work more and push harder to get to the parts where the S58 shines brightly. This is especially important to note during break-in (assuming you're observing it), since you aren't sampling the car's true talents yet. Once you're out of break-in and can take it to redline, you'll be pleasantly surprised by how vicious the Mr. Hyde side of the car can be. It's an accentuated version of the E92 M3 experience.

Once you've sampled the 6MT after "driving it like you stole it", you'll feel better about and maybe even appreciate the smooth, daily-friendly nature of the car at lower driving intensity. Total security after that since you'll know what you have.

Any less-than-enthusiastic review you've seen of the G87 is of the 6MT car, which exposes the problem with taking the word of people who are forced to develop opinions on tight schedules with sometimes insufficient drive time.

The 6MT car gives you every reason to shift when you're going for it, which is exactly what makes sense for a #SaveTheManuals product. This is not a B58 or N55 where the low-end torque let's you easily be a hooligan around town between 0 and 50mph. If you want that experience, the ZF8 car with its shorter gears and quick and effortless shifting action does a great job of giving you both sides of the spectrum.

On the transmission front, there's no wrong answer with this car. Get whichever you like; there are very real merits to both.

[D22M2]

Thanks for the insight. I’m still getting one but leaning towards automatic . Now I wish my OG M2 is a manual to enjoy best of both worlds

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Don't worry about these reviews; I can tell you definitively that the G87 is a fantastic car and the S58 + M3 underpinnings in a car with this wheelbase at this price is something you don't want to miss.

Disclaimer about the 6MT version. I have spent extensive time with both the 6MT and ZF8 auto, both are excellent. The 6MT car feels less lively than the ZF8 during normal driving. The combo of a linear powerband and fewer gears means you're spending more time moving through the weaker part of the torque curve. You simply have to work more and push harder to get to the parts where the S58 shines brightly. This is especially important to note during break-in (assuming you're observing it), since you aren't sampling the car's true talents yet. Once you're out of break-in and can take it to redline, you'll be pleasantly surprised by how vicious the Mr. Hyde side of the car can be. It's an accentuated version of the E92 M3 experience.

Once you've sampled the 6MT after "driving it like you stole it", you'll feel better about and maybe even appreciate the smooth, daily-friendly nature of the car at lower driving intensity. Total security after that since you'll know what you have.

Any less-than-enthusiastic review you've seen of the G87 is of the 6MT car, which exposes the problem with taking the word of people who are forced to develop opinions on tight schedules with sometimes insufficient drive time.

The 6MT car gives you every reason to shift when you're going for it, which is exactly what makes sense for a #SaveTheManuals product. This is not a B58 or N55 where the low-end torque let's you easily be a hooligan around town between 0 and 50mph. If you want that experience, the ZF8 car with its shorter gears and quick and effortless shifting action does a great job of giving you both sides of the spectrum.

On the transmission front, there's no wrong answer with this car. Get whichever you like; there are very real merits to both.

[FryCookOnVenus]

I've found this thread kind of depressing. Not because of what it says about the new M2, but what it says about human nature and how so many people handle it when their hopes and beliefs bump up against contradictory observations.

I'm on the waitlist for a G87. They have my deposit and I'm excited. And, of course I want every review to rave about my future car, but when someone doesn't like it, it feels intellectually dishonest to discredit their opinion instead of considering it. And when there is converging observations from unrelated sources, I think we have to consider that maybe the reviewers have all noticed something true and we only do ourselves a disservice to ignore what they're saying.

Or, maybe I'm wrong and everyone that criticizes the M2 is either an ignoramus or dishonest, and the people that praise it are truthful and wise. But that doesn't seem likely.

I'm keeping my spot on the list because the car offers most of what I want at a fair price and I can't think of a better option. Plus, I test drove it and really liked it. But, the car appears to have shortcomings and that's okay for us all to acknowledge. I choose to leave the cognitive dissonance and rationalizing to certain members of the F87 gang.

[ronin13013]

I like this. He explained it well. Its all about how you drop that clutch. It takes skill especially from 1 to 2. Moderating spin.

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Don't worry about these reviews; I can tell you definitively that the G87 is a fantastic car and the S58 + M3 underpinnings in a car with this wheelbase at this price is something you don't want to miss.

Disclaimer about the 6MT version. I have spent extensive time with both the 6MT and ZF8 auto, both are excellent. The 6MT car feels less lively than the ZF8 during normal driving. The combo of a linear powerband and fewer gears means you're spending more time moving through the weaker part of the torque curve. You simply have to work more and push harder to get to the parts where the S58 shines brightly. This is especially important to note during break-in (assuming you're observing it), since you aren't sampling the car's true talents yet. Once you're out of break-in and can take it to redline, you'll be pleasantly surprised by how vicious the Mr. Hyde side of the car can be. It's an accentuated version of the E92 M3 experience.

Once you've sampled the 6MT after "driving it like you stole it", you'll feel better about and maybe even appreciate the smooth, daily-friendly nature of the car at lower driving intensity. Total security after that since you'll know what you have.

Any less-than-enthusiastic review you've seen of the G87 is of the 6MT car, which exposes the problem with taking the word of people who are forced to develop opinions on tight schedules with sometimes insufficient drive time.

The 6MT car gives you every reason to shift when you're going for it, which is exactly what makes sense for a #SaveTheManuals product. This is not a B58 or N55 where the low-end torque let's you easily be a hooligan around town between 0 and 50mph. If you want that experience, the ZF8 car with its shorter gears and quick and effortless shifting action does a great job of giving you both sides of the spectrum.

On the transmission front, there's no wrong answer with this car. Get whichever you like; there are very real merits to both.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by FryCookOnVenus

Or, maybe I'm wrong and everyone that criticizes the M2 is either an ignoramus or dishonest, and the people that praise it are truthful and wise. But that doesn't seem likely.

I do both of those things, what does that make me? Oh no, existential crisis!

The G87 has plenty of flaws, like any car. It's not the best car, there is no such thing. It is simply the best car FOR ME on balance, today, and that's all that matters.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by deneed4spd

After hundreds of pages of threads, I wish bmw just fixed the manual feel and made the car 3650 lbs for $72k start. Yah it would have been more expensive but, with CTRs going for mid 40s, acura going for low 50s, I’m sure the price premium would have been accepted with standard forge wheels, better manual parts like Supra, lighter frame pieces. Feel more nimble, etc. but then the bean counters would have yelled because it would be way better than the m4.

This is the dilemma you start to get into when more expensive cars are compared with cheaper cars. Even if the cheaper car is slightly less capable, you’ll have the naysayers saying well that car isn’t twice as nice and it’s barely any faster or not any faster. Honestly, we see it all the time comparing the M2 to more expensive cars too. The unfortunate thing about weight is manufacturers almost have no control. The government mandates so much crap in the name of safety features, pretty soon you’ll probably need a breathalyzer too, that you just can’t shave off the lbs without using exotic materials or making the car tiny which we are all too fat for.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by MMMGuy60

Have you seen the Z in person? It actually looks great.

I have not seen it in person and hope I never do. It looks like they kludged together a bunch of different design cues and concepts to make that car. I do like the interior, but I think M2 is just next level. I think the Supra and M2 exterior look better fo sho.

[c1pher]

Reviews are for clicks. Don’t forget that. Couple things that stuck with me was that they both kind of indicated the M2 was more capable and the interior was nicer. Despite those things they wanted something else.

Let’s face it, for $70k you can get a base C8 which is even more capable. What you’re getting that the C8 doesn’t have is just a nicer level of refinement, legendary inline six performance and technology and badge cachet if you can say that about BMW. Everyone has their preferences.

[ASAP]

I just rewatched the video and there is an awful lot of salt here for no reason... they didn't say anything really negative just said they'd prefer the older one based on looks etc... thats kind of what their conclusion was based on...

I thought the m's exhaust sounded the best and also had the best interior and space from the 3 cars.

The Supra is a 2 seater so I don't think people that are looking for a more practical car would ever choose that. The Nissan Z... honestly I see virtually no reason to choose that car... it looks about 10 years later to the game... it runs a 13 second 1/4 mile, weighs 3500 lbs with 2 seats. The car is ranked 9th in the category in the class by Car and Driver.... they are choosing based on emotion here and that's fine, that's their choice.

[M Division]

The straight pipe guys drive like my aunty.. they have a great giggle when they manage to "do a launch control" in the cars they review and then they really push the cars to the limits when they "send it" around a single 30degree corner...

All you have to do is watch the track review of the Z to see how it falls apart when someone who can actually drive is behind the wheel
https://youtu.be/y9gCHoBrflk

Sure the Z4, oops I mean Supra, is a great car, almost as good as the G42, which is just a league or two behind the G87