[Bumpinjeep]

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What are your thoughts on the cost cutting and platform sharing on the G series cars?
I'm talking about the M3 no longer having a dedicated motor, the ZF transmission across the entire product range, the brake situation, interior design and objects, etc...
On one hand, I don't like it. I don't like that in the e92 and for 90% of the F series M3/4 you had a dedicated motor and now the S58 is in the
M2 and all of it's variants
M3 and all of it's variants
M4 and all of it's variants
X3 and all of it's variants
X4 and all of it's variants
The same dash, the same seats, lack of hand brake (you get a button), the same just about everything. It somehow feels watered down a bit.
On the other hand, we get pretty amazing cars, powerful, RWD, with a 6 speed. Maybe BMW simply couldn't afford to make every car unique or maybe they want to simplify the assembly line and make more of a profit?
Is it going to bug you? Is it a deal breaker? Or do you simply not care because at the end of the day, the vehicle itself, though no longer unique, is pretty damn great?
Discuss!

[Tag]

It's kind of more of the same IMO. Back when the e90 was out the 335is and the 2 series both shared the same DCT that was used on the M3. They just didn't have all the M bells and whistles.

The S58 is used today on the X3/4 M because SUVs have gained a large market share and to not use the engine on those M models wouldn't make much sense.

The seats are a mixed bag; in the UK for instance the M240i gets the same M Sport seats as the M3/4, but in the US the M240i gets the regular seats. This also isn't anything new, they do this depending on what market it's in.

I do however agree regarding cost cutting with the rear brakes. They changed the design for the parking brake which removed the drum style brake that was housed in the rear rotor hat and integrated it into the floating rear caliper. This however meant they couldn't just install larger fixed caliper brakes without having to also redesign the entire parking brake. So as a cost cutting measure they just painted some shitty floating calipers the same color as the front brakes so they don't show the raw iron and become rusty after a few years instead of developing aluminum fixed calipers like they offered on the last generation of cars, including the non-M ones. They will argue that the rear brake is more than adequate in their testing and some will be OK with that. Others like yours truly call bullshit, because a fixed caliper provides more consistent braking, more clamping force and you can easily swap out the pads without having to remove the entire caliper.

[Ricochet48]

Leveraging economies of scale is great and helps makes them more 'affordable'.

I do not value having a 'rare', bespoke engine at all. Zero. I care about performance and efficiency. In fact, this is why I much, much prefer the B58 to the S58. It's so much more fuel efficient (especially in eco cruising on the highway) with 95% of the usable performance.

[themk]

Part sharing has been a goal for most car manufactures for decades. VW group shares over multiple manufactures. Honestly to me it dose not matter its all about performance and how it feels to drive the car.

[soflacarguy]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

M2 and all of it's variants
M3 and all of it's variants
M4 and all of it's variants

This lineup has evolved to become different variations of the same car.

[Project_F87]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

Leveraging economies of scale is great and helps makes them more 'affordable'.

I do not value having a 'rare', bespoke engine at all. Zero. I care about performance and efficiency. In fact, this is why I much, much prefer the B58 to the S58. It's so much more fuel efficient (especially in eco cruising on the highway) with 95% of the usable performance.

So instead of caring about performance and efficiency, it seems you mainly care about efficiency. M cars are absolutely less efficient than the standard series BMWs, but literally no one buys M cars with the intention of them to be MORE efficient than a standard series car. It is foolish to even consider a car with greater performance would also have better fuel efficiency (until hybrid powertrains are introduced at least). The S58 is better than the B58 in every single way

[Game]

Originally Posted by Project_F87

So instead of caring about performance and efficiency, it seems you mainly care about efficiency. M cars are absolutely less efficient than the standard series BMWs, but literally no one buys M cars with the intention of them to be MORE efficient than a standard series car. It is foolish to even consider a car with greater performance would also have better fuel efficiency (until hybrid powertrains are introduced at least). The S58 is better than the B58 in every single way

Exactly. If efficiency is a necessity, a full M car is not for you.

[MmmmmM2]

Just like I love the threads in M Car forums that start with, "What kind of mileage are you getting in your M...."

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by Project_F87

So instead of caring about performance and efficiency, it seems you mainly care about efficiency. M cars are absolutely less efficient than the standard series BMWs, but literally no one buys M cars with the intention of them to be MORE efficient than a standard series car. It is foolish to even consider a car with greater performance would also have better fuel efficiency (until hybrid powertrains are introduced at least). The S58 is better than the B58 in every single way

Nope, I care about the balance. Of course I don't expect it to be MORE efficient, I just think the trade-off is a weak one vs. the M240ix.

The S58 is not better in every way, it's much, much worse in efficiency. That extra power can almost never be used, unless you're on a track all the time or going full boy racer in the burbs. The B58 puts down 400whp, which is enough in 95% of situations (and faster than like 90% of the cars on the road stock). I would rather be slower than the M2 5% of the time, but ~30% more efficient cruising on the highway when premium gas is like $6 (and my Tesla friends laugh at me haha).

Suspension and such are another thing. I wish they had more suspension upgrades for the M240i to get even closer to the M2 (or just an M2 with the B58 would be great imo).

Also higher performance does not automatically mean worse efficiency. The M240i is like 3x the power of my RSX-S and gets better mpg. Technology continues to advance and some models just put more effort in to save you at the pump. Even in current times, take a sample of all 300hp and then 400hp cars, there's a surprising amount of efficiency overlap (e.g. some 400hp cars getting the same mpg as 300hp ones).

"Exactly. If efficiency is a necessity, a full M car is not for you."

100%, the M2 is not for me. The M240ix with AWD in Chicago's winter is a much more logical move for me (and most buyers). If I was very wealthy, could afford a fun weekend car, lived near a track (or the very least some nice twisty roads rather than bump city ones), and didn't care about the efficiency, then ya a manual M2 would a solid pick. To be honest I would get a tuned manual Supra over an M2 if I was going to impractical route as it's such a head turner.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

Nope, I care about the balance. Of course I don't expect it to be MORE efficient, I just think the trade-off is a weak one vs. the M240ix.

You just made his point.

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

The S58 is not better in every way, it's much, much worse in efficiency. That extra power can almost never be used, unless you're on a track all the time or going full boy racer in the burbs. The B58 puts down 400whp, which is enough in 95% of situations (and faster than like 90% of the cars on the road stock). I would rather be slower than the M2 5% of the time, but ~30% more efficient cruising on the highway when premium gas is like $6 (and my Tesla friends laugh at me haha).

When I get the M2 I'll invite you to hang and show you how to use every bit of power the S58 has on the street and leave with a perma-grin on your face.

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

Suspension and such are another thing. I wish they had more suspension upgrades for the M240i to get even closer to the M2 (or just an M2 with the B58 would be great imo).

Wishes it handled like an M2, doesn't want an M2.

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

Also higher performance does not automatically mean worse efficiency. The M240i is like 3x the power of my RSX-S and gets better mpg. Technology continues to advance and some models just put more effort in to save you at the pump. Even in current times, take a sample of all 300hp and then 400hp cars, there's a surprising amount of efficiency overlap (e.g. some 400hp cars getting the same mpg as 300hp ones).

Are you seriously comparing a BMW engine to an Acura? Now that's funny, but also a false equivalency. That's like saying a newborn is better than a toddler since it eats less and sleeps more, it's far more efficient.

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

100%, the M2 is not for me. The M240ix with AWD in Chicago's winter is a much more logical move for me (and most buyers). If I was very wealthy, could afford a fun weekend car, lived near a track (or the very least some nice twisty roads rather than bump city ones), and didn't care about the efficiency, then ya a manual M2 would a solid pick. To be honest I would get a tuned manual Supra over an M2 if I was going to impractical route as it's such a head turner.

Hey that's great, no one is saying you should get an M2. Not everyone wants or needs an M car. I just have one question to ask. If you are not interested in an M2 what are you on the G87 forum instead of the G42? Did you get lost or something?

Let me help you find your way back.

G42 2-Series General Topics

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by Tag

You just made his point.

Huh? I'm saying the performance increase is not worth the loss in MPG. If you added 100hp to a 200hp car and lost 25% that would totally be worth it, adding like 40hp at the top end and losing 25-30% is just not worth it to most.

Originally Posted by Tag

When I get the M2 I'll invite you to hang and show you how to use every bit of power the S58 has on the street and leave with a perma-grin on your face.

Where in Chicago can you use that power? I live in River North... are you just racing to the next stop light? In that case the AWD of the G42 would be a better move. If you go to Joliet and race on the Autobahn every week, yes, you'd have a much bigger grin than the the M240i. I would hope so for the $10K on top.

Originally Posted by Tag

Wishes it handled like an M2, doesn't want an M2.

Yes, the M2 is more track focused it will handle better, never said it wouldn't... once again for $10K more it better. The question is how often can you actually use the better handling in stop and go Chicago traffic...

Originally Posted by Tag

Are you seriously comparing a BMW engine to an Acura? Now that's funny, but also a false equivalency. That's like saying a newborn is better than a toddler since it eats less and sleeps more, it's far more efficient.

No, the comparison is that engine power and efficiency tend to be related, but not fully. There's plenty of 300hp cars with worse MPG than 350hp ones, same with 250hp vs. 200hp or 350hp vs. 400hp, etc. Some just have more tech these days.

Originally Posted by Tag

Hey that's great, no one is saying you should get an M2. Not everyone wants or needs an M car. I just have one question to ask. If you are not interested in an M2 what are you on the G87 forum instead of the G42? Did you get lost or something?

One can be interested in learning about a car, but not purchasing it. I'm curious as to what options might 'trickle down' or be available as upgrades to the M240i. If they made a M2 light with upgraded suspension and a B58 for $5K more, I would be all over it, but it appears that will not happen.

Originally Posted by Tag

Let me help you find your way back.

You seem really defensive... it's just a car lol. Living in downtown Chicago cars are the least efficient form of transit anyways. My address has a 99 Walk Score and 100 Transit Score. I road 35 miles on my bike and made like 10 stops yesterday. That would be very difficult in a car finding parking and with the traffic I zipped by. A dedicated parking spot in my building is over $400 a month too as cars just don't make sense downtown. I plan to get a G42 when I buy a townhouse with a 2 car garage in a few years (and even then it will barely get used, more of a toy).

If you actually lived in the burbs it would make 10x more sense though. Growing up there, you are completely car dependent to do anything.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

Huh? I'm saying the performance increase is not worth the loss in MPG. If you added 100hp to a 200hp car and lost 25% that would totally be worth it, adding like 40hp at the top end and losing 25-30% is just not worth it to most.

Where in Chicago can you use that power? I live in River North... are you just racing to the next stop light? In that case the AWD of the G42 would be a better move. If you go to Joliet and race on the Autobahn every week, yes, you'd have a much bigger grin than the the M240i. I would hope so for the $10K on top.

Yes, the M2 is more track focused it will handle better, never said it wouldn't... once again for $10K more it better. The question is how often can you actually use the better handling in stop and go Chicago traffic...

No, the comparison is that engine power and efficiency tend to be related, but not fully. There's plenty of 300hp cars with worse MPG than 350hp ones, same with 250hp vs. 200hp or 350hp vs. 400hp, etc. Some just have more tech these days.

One can be interested in learning about a car, but not purchasing it. I'm curious as to what options might 'trickle down' or be available as upgrades to the M240i. If they made a M2 light with upgraded suspension and a B58 for $5K more, I would be all over it, but it appears that will not happen.

You seem really defensive... it's just a car lol. Living in downtown Chicago cars are the least efficient form of transit anyways. My address has a 99 Walk Score and 100 Transit Score. I road 35 miles on my bike and made like 10 stops yesterday. That would be very difficult in a car finding parking and with the traffic I zipped by. A dedicated parking spot in my building is over $400 a month too as cars just don't make sense downtown. I plan to get a G42 when I buy a townhouse with a 2 car garage in a few years (and even then it will barely get used, more of a toy).

If you actually lived in the burbs it would make 10x more sense though. Growing up there, you are completely car dependent to do anything.

ahahaha you must be comedian or really not have a clue about machines … not an insult just an observation

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

What are your thoughts on the cost cutting and platform sharing on the G series cars?
I'm talking about the M3 no longer having a dedicated motor, the ZF transmission across the entire product range, the brake situation, interior design and objects, etc...
On one hand, I don't like it. I don't like that in the e92 and for 90% of the F series M3/4 you had a dedicated motor and now the S58 is in the
M2 and all of it's variants
M3 and all of it's variants
M4 and all of it's variants
X3 and all of it's variants
X4 and all of it's variants
The same dash, the same seats, lack of hand brake (you get a button), the same just about everything. It somehow feels watered down a bit.
On the other hand, we get pretty amazing cars, powerful, RWD, with a 6 speed. Maybe BMW simply couldn't afford to make every car unique or maybe they want to simplify the assembly line and make more of a profit?
Is it going to bug you? Is it a deal breaker? Or do you simply not care because at the end of the day, the vehicle itself, though no longer unique, is pretty damn great?
Discuss!

the loss of drivers cockpit with m gauges design and increase in weight is a turn off for me

[Ricochet48]

Originally Posted by Mavus

ahahaha you must be comedian or really not have a clue about machines … not an insult just an observation

That's all you have to add? #yikes If you can't debate any of my comments that's sad lel. Not an insult, just a fact.

I've had plenty of track experience, unlike much of this sub. But ya, sure, laugh away m8. You are clueless about city living too it seems.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

That's all you have to add? #yikes If you can't debate any of my comments that's sad lel. Not an insult, just a fact.

I've had plenty of track experience, unlike much of this sub. But ya, sure, laugh away m8. You are clueless about city living too it seems.

There is no debate needed. You are simply saying you personally don't want an M2. You want better mpg, because you need a more efficient vehicle. B58 has plenty of power for your situation. You also want awd for winters.

That is great. You have now repeated these same points multiple times.

Now there are others that live in places where they can access the power more often. Also places to appreciate the superior suspension on some nice back roads or canyon driving. Also BMW community is full of owners who attend multiple HPDE events a year. M2 is great all arounder that is cheaper than a M4, with a more lively shorter wheelbase. The two backseats come in handy from time to time as well.

Your current situation is different, no debate needed. Doesn't mean there isn't a use case for the M2 for other owners. I live in a city, with canyon roads less then 45mins away and an endless amount of tracks to visit. I would much prefer the better handling car and the increased cooling of the S58 for hot summer track days. What ever floats your boat, enjoy your G42.

[Game]

Originally Posted by M3WC

There is no debate needed. You are simply saying you personally don't want an M2. You want better mpg, because you need a more efficient vehicle. B58 has plenty of power for your situation. You also want awd for winters.

That is great. You have now repeated these same points multiple times.

Now there are others that live in places where they can access the power more often. Also places to appreciate the superior suspension on some nice back roads or canyon driving. Also BMW community is full of owners who attend multiple HPDE events a year. M2 is great all arounder that is cheaper than a M4, with a more lively shorter wheelbase. The two backseats come in handy from time to time as well.

Your current situation is different, no debate needed. Doesn't mean there isn't a use case for the M2 for other owners. I live in a city, with canyon roads less then 45mins away and an endless amount of tracks to visit. I would much prefer the better handling car and the increased cooling of the S58 for hot summer track days. What ever floats your boat, enjoy your G42.

This should be the end all for this conversation.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by Ricochet48

That's all you have to add? #yikes If you can't debate any of my comments that's sad lel. Not an insult, just a fact.

I've had plenty of track experience, unlike much of this sub. But ya, sure, laugh away m8. You are clueless about city living too it seems.

nah my man living in cities all my life and currently in Philly so very familiar.

how can you compare reliable high perf car to plain street car like 240? with M cars you get 2-in-1 so considering your comment about tracking your position is even more intriguing. how many coolers btw the 2 and tire sizes? grip, torsional rigidity, brakes, motorsport drivetrain with s55+dct how can you disregard engineering under the skin?? you lose cred quickly with those comments

[mvd_rsti]

Originally Posted by Mavus

nah my man living in cities all my life and currently in Philly so very familiar.

how can you compare reliable high perf car to plain street car like 240? with M cars you get 2-in-1 so considering your comment about tracking your position is even more intriguing. how many coolers btw the 2 and tire sizes? grip, torsional rigidity, brakes, motorsport drivetrain with s55+dct how can you disregard engineering under the skin?? you lose cred quickly with those comments

Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with earlier E-series cars and their M-variants? Depending on the generation, one could argue that a non M-variant could be the better car.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by mvd_rsti

Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with earlier E-series cars and their M-variants? Depending on the generation, one could argue that a non M-variant could be the better car.

currently own e90 n55 manual

tracked e90 m3, 330, 335, 135 once

you can make any car better with big enough budget but out of the factory they are diff machines cause they are built for diff spectrums or missions

to make it even clearer … go ride with P club full track day 4 sessions at 60-140mph over 40-50 laps and let me know if you'd rather have m2 or 240 … then pack up your gear and ride home

[mvd_rsti]

Originally Posted by Mavus

currently own e90 n55 manual

tracked e90 m3, 330, 335, 135 once

you can make any car better with big enough budget but out of the factory they are diff machines cause they are built for diff spectrums or missions

to make it even clearer … go ride with P club full track day 4 sessions at 60-140mph over 40-50 laps and let me know if you'd rather have m2 or 240 … then pack up your gear and ride home

Any experience with E36's? a few years back I owned a 320i and a 318is coupes, and tracked 320i, 318is, M3(My landlord's) and B6 Alpina (Neighbor's) at Monza (plus a few Ford's but not relevant). Also, drove the 318is, 320 and Alpina through some nice twisty roads through Piancavallo towards Barcis and SP 63(?). On that generation I'll take the 318is in its stock form any day as it felt better balanced at the track and through tight corners, never felt lagging in power even though it had the M44 engine with only 130-something HP, and was fantastic on gas milage, which might not matter to most on the US but live a few years in Europe and you'll understand. The reason I bring this up, I see a lot of similarities on this G42 series in its variants to the E36's, primarily when it comes to cost, weight to power, weight distribution, and turning radius amongst the variants. It's why I chose the 230i vs m240i as I have amazing mountain roads near where I live as well as a track nearby, though I'm open to reassess once the M2 has been out and all the finer pecs and info released. That's all to say that the M car might not be the best variant, though i get that may be subjective.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by mvd_rsti

Any experience with E36's? a few years back I owned a 320i and a 318is coupes, and tracked 320i, 318is, M3(My landlord's) and B6 Alpina (Neighbor's) at Monza (plus a few Ford's but not relevant). Also, drove the 318is, 320 and Alpina through some nice twisty roads through Piancavallo towards Barcis and SP 63(?). On that generation I'll take the 318is in its stock form any day as it felt better balanced at the track and through tight corners, never felt lagging in power even though it had the M44 engine with only 130-something HP, and was fantastic on gas milage, which might not matter to most on the US but live a few years in Europe and you'll understand. The reason I bring this up, I see a lot of similarities on this G42 series in its variants to the E36's, primarily when it comes to cost, weight to power, weight distribution, and turning radius amongst the variants. It's why I chose the 230i vs m240i as I have amazing mountain roads near where I live as well as a track nearby, though I'm open to reassess once the M2 has been out and all the finer pecs and info released. That's all to say that the M car might not be the best variant, though i get that may be subjective.

completely understand!

I was driven in e36 m3 on track but the US e36 m3 did not get the "real" euro engine and that's the one I'd like to try. This one was modded but could not keep up with most cars. The biggest issue with w36 are small fenders. We joke it's the only m3 without flared fenders so you need to mod the rear at least. Also, starting with e9x the chassis upgrades are very noticeable compared to e46 and e36. it's like a piece of granite and you feel it in corners. There is no flex.

With so many good choices out there it really depends on the driver what do you prefer. I know that lighter car is usually a better driver and saves on consumables like tires, pads, gas etc. I think one of the great values now is og m2 with bbk added. It's a nice mid pack car that is good enough and you can do some light mods if budget allows while being 150+ lbs lighter than m2c.

All other 4cyl bmws are momentum cars and good to learn handling and car control but they can't keep up with 400+ hp new machines obviously. You may want to check out base Caymans also, they are great drivers.

Kind of a general response so not sure if it answers your questions.

[bromudez]

Originally Posted by M3WC

There is no debate needed. You are simply saying you personally don't want an M2. You want better mpg, because you need a more efficient vehicle. B58 has plenty of power for your situation. You also want awd for winters.

That is great. You have now repeated these same points multiple times.

Now there are others that live in places where they can access the power more often. Also places to appreciate the superior suspension on some nice back roads or canyon driving. Also BMW community is full of owners who attend multiple HPDE events a year. M2 is great all arounder that is cheaper than a M4, with a more lively shorter wheelbase. The two backseats come in handy from time to time as well.

Your current situation is different, no debate needed. Doesn't mean there isn't a use case for the M2 for other owners. I live in a city, with canyon roads less then 45mins away and an endless amount of tracks to visit. I would much prefer the better handling car and the increased cooling of the S58 for hot summer track days. What ever floats your boat, enjoy your G42.

All great points but I'd argue the use case isn't overly important to a lot of M car buyers anyway.

Many owners will never track their cars and just want something they perceive to be "special", fun when they want it to be. It doesn't hurt that these cars also look damn good.

M240 is a great car but as a former owner myself, no amount of rationalizing based on xDrive practicality or inability to access the full capabilities of a full fat M car as a a daily driver in the city stopped me from developing a sore neck from staring at M2s on the road =))