[meyer1son]

Thanks WOW blind vs sighted percentage really changed pending speaker position.

So I have had the match up8 installed for over a month. During this time I have been spending a lot of time dialing in the SQ using dsp software in conjunction with REW. Then centering the soundstage. I personally think it sounds great. At this point I have gotten multiple people to listen to it in the drivers seat. I haven’t told anyone the only upgrade done was adding the match up. Most have told me that it does sound damn good. A few said what ever you did don’t change a thing lol

I have been doing a lot of reading trying to learn as much as I can and bugging Bill with a few messages during this time lol

Bill is my assertion correct? If you have a match up7 8 or 10 installed. The only speaker upgrade worth while is the i82SWS Shallow Woofer System 2ohm. But only if you don’t plan on adding a subwoofer. Because the oem sub is better above 50 hz.

Thanks,
Chris

[mrpingu]

Originally Posted by dufreyne

Right, I need 4 boards. Actually this is the local website (EU-based in Netherlands). Prices are basically the same as at parts-express

I am sourcing from the same site / shop. Were the boards sold per two (pair) so 2, gives 4 boards?

Were you able to fit those boards into the door easily? feels like these sizes are little bit big, but can probably cut these.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by meyer1son

Bill is my assertion correct? If you have a match up7 8 or 10 installed. The only speaker upgrade worth while is the i82SWS Shallow Woofer System 2ohm. But only if you don’t plan on adding a subwoofer. Because the oem sub is better above 50 hz.

Yes. Also because the only reason to add the Earthquake is if you want to go lower than OEM and don't want to fill your trunk with a sub, and it would have to be a substantial sub to beat a pair of Earthquakes.

[meyer1son]

Thanks for saving me from the black hole of consumer fraud lol

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Unless the gauge was seriously small you probably wouldn't notice the effect of wire smaller than ideal. What occurs is insertion loss, as the delivered voltage is reduced due to the resistance of the wire being too high relative to the impedance of the speakers. A couple of dB isn't really audible, but it does waste amp power. If you need to strip away a few strands of 14ga to fit into the amp connectors that won't affect the overall resistance of the full run of the wire.

While on the subject, I've wondered why the H-K woofers are 8 ohm. One possible reason is to keep the wire gauge small. There's a lot of wire in these cars, which adds up to a lot of weight, the sum total of which will affect fuel economy. The higher power of the H-K system results in higher current, which also requires a heavier gauge wire, unless you increase the speaker impedance to compensate, while increasing the voltage swing capacity of the amp to drive the higher impedance load. It's the only reason I can think of that justifies going with 8 ohm woofers.

First of all where did you get the info that f30 harman kardon uses 8ohm subwoofers? Only the latest bmws with harman kardon use 8ohm subwoofers (idrive 7 and up).
Also why have you wondered about choosing 8ohm subwoofers? Isn't it very simple for you? Higher impedance speakers and subwoofers have better frequency response and less distortion. Higher impedances are used when sound quality is the priority. Low impedance is used in small budget teenager SPL builds. I have seen a lot of your audio regarded answers here in the forum and a bunch of bs on them. This post of yours was enough for me, now is time to correct it. You don't have enough knowledge to talk about anything related to bmw underseat subwoofers, you have spread tons of incorrect information across all audio related posts here. Either step it up or don't comment.

[NealfromNZ]

F80 / F30 HK woofers

Will leave this here.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by Matti123

First of all where did you get the info that f30 harman kardon uses 8ohm subwoofers?

It's been reported by many reliable sources.

Higher impedance speakers and subwoofers have better frequency response and less distortion. Higher impedances are used when sound quality is the priority. Low impedance is used in small budget teenager SPL builds.

False across the board. The only reason why they would use 8 ohm woofers is to allow them to increase power without using a larger wire gauge. Power may be increased by two methods. One is via higher current, but that requires a larger wire gauge to handle it. The other is via higher voltage, which does not require a higher gauge wire. Rather than having to use a different wire harness for the Hi-Fi and H-K BMW would seem to have chosen the higher voltage rather than the higher current option.

I have seen a lot of your audio regarded answers here in the forum and a bunch of bs on them. This post of yours was enough for me, now is time to correct it. You don't have enough knowledge to talk about anything related to bmw underseat subwoofers, you have spread tons of incorrect information across all audio related posts here.

Oh really? Here's mine, show me yours:

[NealfromNZ]

I suspect the reason for 8 ohm may be more of a function of the 12 volt input gauge of the amp power ve+ feed and a current budget going into the rear fuse distribution box. Putting a 2 ohm load woofer at the Hk amp would see a higher current requirement closer to the rating of the fuse / wire.

The underseat woofer gauge is 2.5mm or 13 gauage which even at a two ohm load is far more that will ever be needed in that situation hence my thinking on the amp design.

The the areas with all of the aftermarket is either low frequency extension ( sws does this ) , efficiency (Hk ) or how tight or loose the bass will be ( qtc )

If you look at two choice hear say ESB verse SWS the qtc value of the two drivers are at extreme . Without modelling in car response ( I didn’t know how to do that ) the sws is around 1.1 which is gives good extension at the expense of accuracy with 1.2 qtc considered flabby bass or has difficulty articulating bass notes. The ESB is around 0.6 which gives tight bass but looses out a bit on low end.

So for those two examples , I’d use an esb for tight bass control, but add a trunk sub to augment it. With the SwS it’s a good trade off between not having a trunk sub and bass that is ideal for hip hop.

It used to be that for hifi sound the desired qtc value and tradeoff for bass extension and tightness was around the 0.7 qtc level.

The focals qtc mentioned a few posts back appears to be close to the Hk units from
bills measurements of his hifi woofers ( qtc 1.0 ) , but can take more power and should go a couple db louder at 180watts.

My take on these underseat wooder choices is target the choice for the music you like . If you like jazz or tight detailed bass , look for a lower qtc, if it’s hip hop higher qtc if better suited and the question becomes do you want to bother putting in a trunk sub to augment a low QTC under seat woofer choice.


As for high ohm speakers mentioned a couple of posts back , more for the good old vavle amp days of limited current available so needed easy to drive speaker loads. These days amps output stages can deliver low distortion into high current loads.

I wouldn’t get hung up on if a woofer was 16 or two ohms . It’s more the design and the qtc that will define accuracy.

Anyway this is my humble opinion and probably has inaccuracies .

[Billfitz]

I didn't measure the gauge of the wire to my woofers when I pulled one to measure the T/S specs, but I did notice it was small, not 13 gauge by any means. What struck me was how light all of the speaker wires are. That's BMW shaving off every pound they can where they think they can get away with it for maximum CAFE.

Whether it's the gauge of the wire to the speaker or the gauge of the wire to the amp or the fuse size it all boils down to BMW/Harmon deciding that they'd rather use a higher voltage output with an 8 ohm woofer than a higher current output with a 4 ohm woofer. They wouldn't have arrived at that decision lightly, as it's the more expensive route.

As for valve amps, unlike SS they aren't rated for minimum impedance loads, they're rated for maximum impedance loads. Output transformers don't like high impedance loads. Not knowing any better back in the day we used to run our Fender amps into 1 ohm loads all the time, with no ill effect.

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

It's been reported by many reliable sources.
False across the board. The only reason why they would use 8 ohm woofers is to allow them to increase power without using a larger wire gauge. Power may be increased by two methods. One is via higher current, but that requires a larger wire gauge to handle it. The other is via higher voltage, which does not require a higher gauge wire. Rather than having to use a different wire harness for the Hi-Fi and H-K BMW would seem to have chosen the higher voltage rather than the higher current option.
Oh really? Here's mine, show me yours:

Only in 2019 when idrive 7 were introduced, did harman kardon systems get 8 ohm subwoofers. I don't know if its different in the US because you seem like you live there... but its like this in europe. All harman kardon subwoofers are 4 ohm till idrive 7.

High end audio systems use higher impedance speakers and subwoofers, should be nothing new to you. The US base audio (hifi) uses 2 ohm subwoofers because its easy power but lacks quality. Bowers & wilkins system uses 8 ohm subwoofers at 250W for a reason.

you are just a member of a group, doesn't mean anything. If I wanted I could edit a card like that with my name on it too.

[NealfromNZ]

Interesting enough that 8 ohm Hk enclosure has a June 2015 build date so they have been around for a while. It was sourced from the USA as I wanted the larger enclosure for an aftermarket mid bass option. ( I have a UK market F80 with base audio) I still believe QTC over impedance has a greater bearing on perceived bass quality.

I haven’t validated ECE built HK amps in the pre 2017 models perhaps it’s a different amp from the USA spec cars.

With the B&W speakers you’ll find their high end home and studio models models like the 802ds will actually drop to 3 ohms in the bass regions yet they are considered an 8 ohm speaker. I’m reasonable sure the dual woofers in one of the models are auctual 4 ohms drivers connected in series.

The relality is that impedance isn’t flat line but more of a curve on most speakers and normally has a sharpe increase near its resonance frequency . Even the sws gets to 8 ohms at 40 something hertz but is averaged as a 4 ohm speakers. But in my view it’s an under damped woofer with a considerable Xmax and hence can do lower as pointed out.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by NealfromNZ

I still believe QTC over impedance has a greater bearing on perceived bass quality.

Quite right. Qtc affects response. Impedance doesn't.

But in my view it’s an under damped woofer with a considerable Xmax and hence can do lower as pointed out.

The damping factor has far less to do with it than the Fs, which is some 20Hz lower than OEM and most replacement woofers. That lower Fs is realized with high Mms and compliance, not at all different than what Ed Villchur and Henry Kloss did when they invented the acoustic suspension speaker. The downside is the same as it was with Acoustic Research, low sensitivity. Still, if you want to go low and you must go small you can do it, provided you have the xmax to allow excursion long enough to make up for the lower sensitivity, and enough amp to provide the necessary power. On a personal level I never met Ed, but I knew Henry. When I graduated college he offered me a job at Advent, but my Uncle Sam made me an offer that I couldn't refuse.

On the subject of the H-K woofer usage: in US models https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=65139210151

In Euro models: https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=65139210151

[Rebound]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Every midrange/tweeter needs a crossover, either passive or active. Passive if a single amp channel is powering both the midrange and tweeter, active if they're driven by separate amp channels. One glaring deficiency of the stock BMW arrangement is that it doesn't have a crossover, it only has a ten cent capacitor that filters the tweeter signal. See Post #117.

Hi Bill. What a fantastic resource you are!
I have an F33 (2014) with the HK audio system. When you say that the “stock” arrangement does not have a crossover between mid and tweeter, only a cap, do you know if that includes the HK system?

[Billfitz]

I don't have H-K, so I can't say from personal experience. I haven't seen anyone post that it does have a crossover, though.

[Rebound]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I don't have H-K, so I can't say from personal experience. I haven't seen anyone post that it does have a crossover, though.

Thank you. But I assume that, if I remove the door panel and find only the capacitor wired between the two speakers, it doesn’t mean I can directly use the crossover design you proposed, could I? You’d need more data?

[Billfitz]

You would be able to use my crossover. What matters is the driver impedances, which will be close enough to those of the Hi-Fi to work.

[mrpingu]

Just got a deal on 7BMW for 450 EUR...
Will it be worth it when the crossover from Billfitz is in place? Knowing that the price is actually a steal but I am quite satisfied with the current setup... ( current setup is crossover + S674A (HK for lesser BMW / MINI) amp). Only thing that anoys me is the center channel being to loud.

I mean it's a car which is always a suboptimal place for listening to HQ music so will I be wowed again?

Also would like to add that I don't feel like spending too much time in DSP'ing the sh!t out. Just add some sensible HP/LP and maybe lower the output to the center channel and done... How much time would one need to spend on that?

[Billfitz]

If you're not going to make use of the DSP there's no point in getting a Match amp. Setting DSP isn't at all difficult, you just have to be aware of what you're trying to do. A necessary tool is an RTA, but you don't need an expensive rig for that. An app will give adequate results. For non-critical measurements I use this, with the Spectrum Analyzer set for 1/3 octave, C-weighting, slow weighting. https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...analyzer&pli=1

[mrpingu]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

If you're not going to make use of the DSP there's no point in getting a Match amp. Setting DSP isn't at all difficult, you just have to be aware of what you're trying to do. A necessary tool is an RTA, but you don't need an expensive rig for that. An app will give adequate results. For non-critical measurements I use this, with the Spectrum Analyzer set for 1/3 octave, C-weighting, slow weighting. https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...analyzer&pli=1

Ofcourse I will do a little bit of DSP'ing but I am not the person that is going to spent more than 1 saturday afternoon fixing it, but I appreciate good quality sound though I mean I have gone through the trouble of making my own crossover... Thanks for that btw.

I was just hoping that also out of the box the Match amp would be an clear improvement to justify the few 100 bills I will be spending, I mean in clarity. With this remark, it is not justified yet haha...

[Billfitz]

One afternoon is all it should take, so long as you know what you want to do before you try to do it. An amp alone won't affect clarity, using DSP to get smooth frequency response will.

[f30bmw320i]

In my base f30 2013 with the 6 speaker system. The mid rangers killed themselves with too much bass but the woofer is good. I can’t crank up the bass without killing these small speakers. For me even the 14 speaker harman kardon in my mercedes isn’t good enough in terms of bass. Can anyone recommend what to do?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by f30bmw320i

In my base f30 2013 with the 6 speaker system. The mid rangers killed themselves with too much bass but the woofer is good. I can’t crank up the bass without killing these small speakers. For me even the 14 speaker harman kardon in my mercedes isn’t good enough in terms of bass. Can anyone recommend what to do?

The BMW F3x HiFi system actually has a pair of tweeters and a pair of midranges in the front doors, a pair of midranges in the rear doors, a pair of subwoofers under the front seats, a single midrange under the dash pad center grill and an amplifier under a panel in the left alcove of the trunk. So a total of 7 speakers, 2 subwoofers and an amplifier.

The best way to upgrade your system is to do a quick plug and play replacement of the stock amplifier with a Match 7BMW amplifier. The Match 7BMW is like two amps in one with specific power to the speakers and specific higher power to the subwoofers.

It has a DSP system that is 10 years more advanced than the HK system’s. So the HiFi stock speakers will sound amazing. The Match 7BMW is extremely easy to install with connectors that match the BMW stock amplifier. It’s truly plug and play.

Don’t listen to anyone who tells you that your speakers need to be replaced. They either don’t know what they are talking about or are trying to sell you expensive new speakers. Upgrade to a Match 7BMW amplifier and then see if you think that you need different speakers.

Audio companies and audio dealer sales people always focus on putting down stock speakers because they make big profits on replacement speakers. They will also try to sell a replacement amplifier, but always with replacing speakers at the same time. Then people wrongly believe that the expensive new speakers made the improvement when it was really the amplifier- especially if it’s the Match 7BMW with the advanced DSP.

The underseat subwoofers are a weak point that need replacement. The small BMW underseat sub cabinets make it impossible for traditional subs to make a real improvement. The only subwoofer replacement with published specs that are an improvement in our cars is the Earthquake SWS-8Xi (2-ohm). Billfitz has stated this in many posts.

The $25 Earthquake spacer ring kit is needed to install them in the BMW cabinets. The installation is very easy as well. Just remove the two front and two rear seat rail bolts and the seat just tilts back to reveal the subwoofer cover in the car floor.

There have been many posts on this Match 7BMW/ Earthquake SWS-8Xi solution that you can search for more details.

Hope this helps!