[Habber]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

It's the newest plant making a new model. its a valid question that everyone has given glowing answers to, so to obliquely answer your question: i trust it more than i trust a GM anything made in Canada (or anything made in Canada other than perhaps oil). stop looking for a reason to be mad.

Good thing us Canadians aren’t a race or else there’d be more of an upheaval 😂.
There’s always someone in the trees just waiting to pounce on a T not being crossed…. Let’s just stick to the topic.

[Good 4 2 reasons]

Mom, Dad, are you getting a divorce?

Can't we all unite on something being terrible like the upcoming re-numbering of all the Audi models for no reason whatsoever.

[Mr Friese]

Originally Posted by Good 4 2 reasons

I think sometimes the material cost cutting gets blamed on new factories in new locations.

My mk7 VW golf was manufactured in Mexico, but with generally higher quality interior components than the mk8 VW golf which moved production back to Germany.

My 2018 F15 X5 has some better interior materials than the ones used in my 2022 G42 m240.

Its much easier to judge interior materials versus assembly quality. Tesla's infamously have some of the most horrendous assembly quality that wouldn't happen to a Kia assembled in the early 2000's. They have factories in the United States and Germany.

I think the company's commitment to QA and materials is a far bigger concern than the location. I passed on ordering a mk8 Golf R in 2021 because I hated the material cost cutting on the interior even though they moved production back to Germany. I would put the assembly quality of my mexican produced mk7 Golf that I bought new for $17,500 in 2014 against any car manufactured in 2024.

Owned a MK7, a MK7.5 and a MK8 and the materials in the MK8 are of objectively better quality in every aspect. Only thing that pains me is the manual prop rod, but that was done for safety purposes apparently :/

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I’m glad you didn’t quote me, because you obliquely and squarely did not answer my question. It seems like you are mad yourself we’re not mad, we just understand how plants work.

I understand how plants work. i understand there are many people working them. i understand that new models and newer plants frequently have issues. that was the ask, and the questions were answered. drop your politics at the door.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

I understand how plants work. i understand there are many people working them. i understand that new models and newer plants frequently have issues. that was the ask, and the questions were answered. drop your politics at the door.

I don’t have any politics and I’m trying to be respectful of you because I hold you in high regard (which can’t be said about the newcomer who started this thread).

I asked specifically: since the factory is 5 years old, how long does it need to be considered quality?

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

I understand how plants work. i understand there are many people working them. i understand that new models and newer plants frequently have issues. that was the ask, and the questions were answered. drop your politics at the door.

SLP isn't completely new. They've been making the North American Market 3 series for 5 years and made the G42 M240i for a year before starting M2 production.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I don’t have any politics and I’m trying to be respectful of you because I hold you in high regard (which can’t be said about the newcomer who started this thread).

I asked specifically: since the factory is 5 years old, how long does it need to be considered quality?

very well. M2siast, i know you are a bright fellow and i do want to give you a thoughtful response on my thinking, so in the interest of good faith i will do something uncharacteristic and apologize for my flippant response. (that was hard to even type).

I think the framework of this question needs to be adjusted. quality is not always a function of time, but it certainly can be.

for example, i wouldn't trust any product turned out the (now stellantis) toledo complex regardless of time. something about the process there turns out crappy products that i have seen first hand (ill fitting hardtops and softtops, barely glued down plastic trim, insane body panel gaps and often crooked panels) and that plant has been there for what - at least in its current form for almost 20 years?

same goes for tesla- the Fremont plant which has been open since 2010 and has had countless dollars dumped in (too lazy to look up real $ amount) is still churning out bullshit like pic attached (a REAL car sold to a REAL customer that happens to be one of my hapless coworkers this year.) if i went to pick up a new car at 25k (let alone triple that) and this was there, i would be reading the riot act.



if someone asked me about the build quality of a car produced at EITHER of these plants, based on my own experience and observations plus reports from the sellside and others, i would advise you NOT buy the car.

I think BMW is probably one of the only manufacturers i would trust to get a plant together, with a high level of quality at the volume levels they expect, in the time that they did. five years is not a very long time in the life cycle of these plants and the 2 series entered production there in Sept 2021, with M2s starting in April? 2023. i trust BMW's process, regardless of where they are making the cars- my parent's X5 is put together at the same level of quality as my own M2.

Thus, i find the question valid asking about the build quality of the cars. i think we should make an effort to answer good faith questions to the extent they appear on the forums (and here is my good faith effort as well).

/rant

[iifymbro]

this guy goes over the general build quality of the M2, has high praise for it

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

very well. M2siast, i know you are a bright fellow and i do want to give you a thoughtful response on my thinking, so in the interest of good faith i will do something uncharacteristic and apologize for my flippant response. (that was hard to even type).

I think the framework of this question needs to be adjusted. quality is not always a function of time, but it certainly can be.

for example, i wouldn't trust any product turned out the (now stellantis) toledo complex regardless of time. something about the process there turns out crappy products that i have seen first hand (ill fitting hardtops and softtops, barely glued down plastic trim, insane body panel gaps and often crooked panels) and that plant has been there for what - at least in its current form for almost 20 years?

same goes for tesla- the Fremont plant which has been open since 2010 and has had countless dollars dumped in (too lazy to look up real $ amount) is still churning out bullshit like pic attached (a REAL car sold to a REAL customer that happens to be one of my hapless coworkers this year.) if i went to pick up a new car at 25k (let alone triple that) and this was there, i would be reading the riot act.

Attachment 3414667

if someone asked me about the build quality of a car produced at EITHER of these plants, based on my own experience and observations plus reports from the sellside and others, i would advise you NOT buy the car.

I think BMW is probably one of the only manufacturers i would trust to get a plant together, with a high level of quality at the volume [...]

Thank you!

And I don’t think you and I disagree. I think it’s just the frame of mind, which I was addressing at first when you came to his rescue.

It’s one thing to say “you know, first model year cars can have issues”, or “this plant is new, so processes are being learned and adjusted”. You know, Kaizen. That’s a fine question. And the answer is: cars have been coming out of that factory since 2019 and every 3-series we have are extremely high quality; more recently, all 2-series have been high quality, and now with the M2, being a new car and all, and SOLELY made in SLP (not the case with the former 2 cars I mentioned), we have nothing but good things to say about its quality (except for the alignment, which is pretty much always messed up and the wheel is crooked to the left, I mentioned the ramp they use must be on an uneven surface before lol).

The thing I take issue with is being dismissive of a plant because of where it is and the people working in them. This is racism. From the dictionary: “a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”. I’m not sure why that was deemed offensive or “woke”. I’m calling it as I see it: the belief that the same process with the same materials can yield a worse result because the people assembling the car are not German.

I am serious when I say I believe Mexicans work in the German factory too. So, what’s important is: BMW built the factory (anywhere) using their engineers, BMW’s suppliers provided the parts and robotics anywhere (mind you, these vendors have plants in SLP as well, see ZF and such also established in SLP), the parts are made by robots and factory workers are trained and supervised by BMW Engineers.

So, the mere fact a country is poorer means nothing for the quality of the cars that come out of a multinational company’s factory (I mean, my iPhone works as well as it would work if made in NA, not in China).

Two important things:

1- Japan was brought up as an example. And I agree with the premise: Japanese car manufacturing was like Chinese… or Korean. And look at Japan, China, and Korea now… They’re doing good. Japan is well established. Korea is too. China is getting there (it started by creating bad cars, then copying good cars, and now making their own).

The problem is that Mexico (as most countries) does not make any cars. There is no Mexican brand of vehicle. So, what they do, is manufacture up to the parent companies’ standards. You can bet a VW (historically strong there, and very old in Mexico) made in Mexico is the same as one made in Germany (if not better).

So the same should go to BMW. It’s not a “Mexican” brand, so the standards are the same. Lumping in Japan is apples to oranges.

2- similarly, comparing brands known for low quality is apples and oranges too. Because a Stellantis product, no matter where it’s made, will have a different goal than a BMW product. And most Stellantis brands are known to be crappy cars. So, essentially, if one was to say “I don’t trust my Stellantis product made in Mexico, but I trust my Stellantis product made in France or Italy” I’d say that is a racist statement, and the person is also a fool for believing they’ll get a quality product just because it’s made in Europe (being Stellantis).
I’d say Stellantis has “lots to learn”, but I don’t believe that myself. I just think they have different mandates and business goals, where low cost and high production are adamant.

Your Tesla example is a good one. Made in the good ol’ US of A. But with bad processes. Built in Germany. But with bad processes. Still growing and learning, getting better, but as a whole (one cannot say “I want my Tesla to be built out of Germany, not China”. This would fall under the same Stellantis example I gave. Twice a fool…

Ford and others the same. Your Canada example is good too. I don’t think Canadians are doing a worse job than Americans. Especially cause there would be many Mexicans in both sides too (as well as other countries of origin). It’s just how the plants are built and how processes are implemented.

In sum, as my first response in the beginning of this thread went: any fear can be put to bed. The car is built well, even if built in Mexico (or because it was built in the most technologically advanced BMW plant today, which just by coincidence is situated in SLP).

Thanks again for the chat and for the considerate response

[Smilodon]

Originally Posted by M2siast

- “Mexico is a less developed country”
- “there’s a cachet about a BMW made in Germany”

Setting aside this line of thinking to ask a serious question:

Since the SLP plant has been successfully producing high quality BMWs since 2019 (5 years now), how many more years does that plant need to be recognized as a BMW factory? Is it 10, 15, 30? What’s the magical number?

The article I read about the factory when they were "awarded" M2 production was in early/mid 2022. With the impact Covid had prior to that, they were still a pretty "new" factory.

The article was mostly about the M2 story, and wasn't clear what they were making prior to that (or where they were being sold).

That said, they had obviously shown themselves worthy of making "M" cars, which is something BMW does not take lightly. Or at least it was a big deal at the time i toured Spartanburg.

To answer your question (as an opinion of course), making highly visible "halo" cars (yeah, I know M2's are probably on the cheap end of that, but still...) that get ranked high in quality for multiple years is probably a good criteria.

A big recall for something done incorrectly at the factory (IE Takada, Boeing, etc.) would alternatively be cause for concern.

For me, I was just hopeful I would get a well-made car with few or no issues, regardless of manufacturing location. So far, it looks like I did, so I'm happy.

[Smilodon]

Originally Posted by Habber

Good thing us Canadians aren’t a race or else there’d be more of an upheaval 😂.

Well on the average, Canadians are more polite than Americans... And they occasionally use funny British words for things... Not to mention metric measurements.

All valid reasons to keep an eye on you guys!

[DarkNight707]

My experience. Somehow mine came with a few extra spiders! Yes! Seriously!

Had no time to ask for their nationality so, not sure if they were mexican or not.

[Geighty7]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I don’t have any politics and I’m trying to be respectful of you because I hold you in high regard (which can’t be said about the newcomer who started this thread).

I asked specifically: since the factory is 5 years old, how long does it need to be considered quality?

Haha you always seem to be in the middle of every argument and bit of drama on this platform. You never miss! I wonder what your day job is

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Thank you!

And I don’t think you and I disagree. I think it’s just the frame of mind, which I was addressing at first when you came to his rescue.

Thanks again for the chat and for the considerate response

i certainly agree with you here. i believe this is a high quality product from a high quality facility. i don't have any qualms about where this thing is made, which i think is a sentiment shared by pretty much all owners. on the flip side, i also think insisting on an M car from ze motherland, which to me is a pompous and highfalutin stand to take, is a valid position should you be the kind of person to mirror those qualities

my ONLY point here was that asking "does this car seem well made from SLP?" is a valid question, in the context of a relatively new model from a relatively new plant. my two examples were of established products at facilities older than SLP, and they still have issues. i am sure everyone who loves and pays attention to cars and build quality in their spare time (theres probably a word for this disease) can come up with other examples as well.

We can surely split hairs 5 ways on this, but i do not think that the insistence that a car come from a nation (NB: NATION) with an established tradition in car building or craftsmanship of complex machines cannot be chalked up to "-ism" of any kind. as you noted, in the 70s, Japanese cars had quite a stigma. fast forward to today and only the highest snobs of them all would look down on your choice of a GX vs a GLE. but in the early days of a nation's car production efforts, even if supported by an OEM like BMW, i think it is fair to ask, "are the standards there?" and we know here the answer is a resounding YES. Is this reflective of BMW's heritage of process? probably.

I don't trust a Tesla made in the USA, i dont trust the compass made in Italy. I dont particularly trust Hondas made in Swindon, England, and i wouldn't buy a VA or later WRX made in Japan. Process is king in something as insanely detailed, meticulous, and error prone as car manufacturing. Perhaps the question should have been "Does BMW have a history of operating new facilities overseas with success?" but the answer would be the same.

[Bumpinjeep]

Having had both M cars build in Germany and a G87, I can tell you that the quality of the car has actually gone up. I had a rattle in my F87C and one in my F80. Nothing in the G87 after a year of ownership. The car is rock solid. I'm assuming this is due to the SLP plant being the most high tech out of the BMW plants. The only real issue is that the plant for some reason or another does not support BMW Individual.
Speaking of paint, the paint on my black car is the best black paint i've ever seen, even my detailer who paint corrected it when I first got it was amazed. Not a lot of work, most of it was just for the ceramic coating that was put on.
I wouldn't worry one bit.

[izzyM2]

I too can say the G87 is the best well made car among all German cars I’ve owned (c63, cayman s, all sorts of bmws, etc…) No squeaks, rattles, etc. Though time will tell, I’m very confident it will be a solid piece of a machine - hats off to the peeps at the Mexico plant.

[aerobod]

Spending a few hours at an auto show recently with my son and checking most vehicles on sale at the moment for overall fit and finish (especially tightness and consistency of panels gaps and level of adjacent panels), some of the observations are:

- Mexican built BMWs and VWs are near the top of the list, if not at the top along with Japanese built Lexus and slightly better than German built ones

- Very difficult to find a GM, Stellantis, Tesla or Ford product that doesn’t have poor panel fit, no matter where it is built.

- US and Mexican built Toyotas and Nissans are as poor as GM, Ford & Stellantis

- Honda, Mazda and Japanese built Toyotas are generally mid-pack

- UK built Jaguars and Range Rovers are mid-pack

- Chinese built Volvos are better than Swedish ones

- Electric Kia and Hyundai products are very near the top, the rest of the cars not so much, but still on par with the average Toyota.

- BMW seems to be the most consistent independent of manufacturing plant, but other German manufacturers also seem to have better consistency compared with non-German manufacturers, who seem to suffer more from differences dependent on manufacturing plant.