[KoenG]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I think you'd find that many people today are paying in the range, or more possibly, for excellent condition E30 M3s (or the E36, E46, E92), as compared to the G series M cars.

To me, the fact that those older, less technologically progressive and "slower" cars can command prices in the range of a brand new M4 at least suggests that the older care are more representative of what a lot of people like / prefer in this space.

But at the end of the day. car purchases like this are very emotional and inherently subjective - so I understand where you're coming from.

When people are willing to pay big money for an E30M3, it's pure yought sentiment. But in all its specifications, the car has become obsolete, a long time ago...

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When you look at the evolution between the E30 M3 and the G82 M4, we progressed light years! You don't have to ask which is faster around the Nordschleife or more thrilling to ride, no? I don't see why the M2 has to remain excluded from this progression.

More thrilling is not about being faster against a stopwatch.

The 1M is more thrilling than the G82 M4 on any track but is much slower. The feeling of a going up for a challenge is the thrill, not which is faster to 100km/h. No owner races these cars stock for a living.

AT + AWD numbs down the thrill is what many people are getting at. Progress is assessed on many attributes. Weight and driver insulation progression is not what a sporty car driver would want.

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When people are willing to pay big money for an E30M3, it's pure yought sentiment. But in all its specifications, the car has become obsolete, a long time ago...

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

Certainly the 0-60 and track times of an F-80 or G80 can't be matched by the earlier cars.

But the new cars have lost agility, nimbleness, "feel" and connection to the road and to the driver. I've owned e36s, e46s, e92s, F80s, and now F87s. I've driven several e30 M3s as well as G80s, including the brutally fast G80 Competition. I've driven them back to back on several occasions.

The F87 is the only one of the newer Bimmers that has the soul of the older models.

The older models embody excellent driving dynamics. On a twisty mountain road, or even on a normal street, they are more nimble, more fun, and more responsive than any G80. And on tight, curvey road, they can often be quicker. They reward good driving skills. And since almost all come with a manual transmission, they are far more engaging.

Faster in a straight line? Yes.

Obsolete? No way.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When you look at the evolution between the E30 M3 and the G82 M4, we progressed light years! You don't have to ask which is faster around the Nordschleife or more thrilling to ride, no? I don't see why the M2 has to remain excluded from this progression.

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

More thrilling is not about being faster against a stopwatch.
The 1M is more thrilling than the G82 M4 on any track but is much slower. The feeling of a going up for a challenge is the thrill, not which is faster to 100km/h. No owner races these cars stock for a living.
AT + AWD numbs down the thrill is what many people are getting at. Progress is assessed on many attributes. Weight and driver insulation progression is not what a sporty car driver would want.

Originally Posted by M2PDX

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.
Certainly the 0-60 and track times of an F-80 or G80 can't be matched by the earlier cars.
But the new cars have lost agility, nimbleness, "feel" and connection to the road and to the driver. I've owned e36s, e46s, e92s, F80s, and now F87s. I've driven several e30 M3s as well as G80s, including the brutally fast G80 Competition. I've driven them back to back on several occasions.
The F87 is the only one of the newer Bimmers that has the soul of the older models.
The older models embody excellent driving dynamics. On a twisty mountain road, or even on a normal street, they are more nimble, more fun, and more responsive than any G80. And on tight, curvey road, they can often be quicker. They reward good driving skills. And since almost all come with a manual transmission, they are far more engaging. Faster in a straight line? Yes.
Obsolete? No way.

From an era without (way too) many iDrive / DriveLogic settings: one size fits all, except for a wing and a splitter.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

Certainly the 0-60 and track times of an F-80 or G80 can't be matched by the earlier cars.

But the new cars have lost agility, nimbleness, "feel" and connection to the road and to the driver. I've owned e36s, e46s, e92s, F80s, and now F87s. I've driven several e30 M3s as well as G80s, including the brutally fast G80 Competition. I've driven them back to back on several occasions.

The F87 is the only one of the newer Bimmers that has the soul of the older models.

The older models embody excellent driving dynamics. On a twisty mountain road, or even on a normal street, they are more nimble, more fun, and more responsive than any G80. And on tight, curvey road, they can often be quicker. They reward good driving skills. And since almost all come with a manual transmission, they are far more engaging.

Faster in a straight line? Yes.

Obsolete? No way.

Spot on.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Would you agree that BMW has an advantage, from the enthusiast perspective, by continuing to offer RWD its smallest M car?

I think of the M2 as the modern equivalent of the older M3, for which AWD wouldn't have ever been considered. It makes sense, logically, to keep the smallest M car as simple as possible (at least to some people).

That's why we have one, albeit "just" an OG.

My honest opinion is that others do AWD better…better off to stick to that which one is truly best at doing, or RWD for BMW in this case.

Oh most definitely, the rwd action is the main reason I'm into bmw's.

That and I love I6 engines…

And I think they look cool…

And the simple interiors with quality materials…

And the wide body's on M cars…

And the racing heritage…

I guess there's a few things I like😂

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Spot on.

Did you turn off traction control on the g80's you've driven?

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

Did you turn off traction control on the g80's you've driven?

Yes. They are amazingly fast, but the steering is numb, and they still feel heavy. With or without traction control on. Like a bludgeon. Super powerful and super fast. Not nimble.

I like them, but they don't make the older Bimmers "obsolete. " That was my point. The older cars may be slower, but they are timeless from my perspective.

I'm hoping the G87 still has some of that old magic.

[///BMW Junkie]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I think it's simpler than that. M2 has to be fairly light, responsive, and tossable at will. Changes like ZF8 or xDrive compromises responsiveness, hence the ongoing/derailed discussion about the engine/transmission combo.
You don't see 911 S/4S drivers argue this much because they are available both in MT and PDK (make no mistake, 911 owners will riot if PDK is replaced with a slushbox).
It's again a shortcoming on BMW's part.

The 911 analogy is spot on and was my exact point earlier - what's the issue with having both options? "Purists" acting like auto/awd G87 would somehow take away the rwd/manual.. Car is definitely coming as rwd/manual first and auto/awd option could perhaps be offered down the line, yet to be seen. If it happens, everyone happy and no need for 10 pointless pages this turned into 😏

[kyrix1st]

Well the issue with recent BMW is they tend to ignore demands for different variants and aim to offer one-vehicle-fits-all, which will never work in this case.
It's gotten worse ever since Zipse (the logistics guy) became the head of the company, as one would expect.

Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie

The 911 analogy is spot on and was my exact point earlier - what's the issue with having both options? "Purists" acting like auto/awd G87 would somehow take away the rwd/manual.. Car is definitely coming as rwd/manual first and auto/awd option could perhaps be offered down the line, yet to be seen. If it happens, everyone happy and no need for 10 pointless pages this turned into ��

[rkmjr]

[QUOTE,//M TOWN;29244055]

Originally Posted by reward72

I don't understand that mentality. What would you lose if the car is made available in both RWD and xDrive? Nobody will force you to buy the xDrive one. But some people like me live in areas with snow on the ground six months of the year and AWD would make the car much more liveable. I currently own an M240i and would upgrade to an M2 in a heart beat if it was available with xDrive. Life is too short to drive a beater in winter months.

It will lose the lovely RWD dynamics

There's something unique and special about the simplicity of a rear wheel drive car

Want all wheel drive buy all wheel drive but I seriously doubt we'll ever see xDrive on the BMW M2[/QUOTE]


But why not have both. With M-x-Drive, AWD can be turned off and you can have your RWD. OR, simply just purchase RWD. Rain, snow or other less than optimum road conditions, turn on the AWD.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Yes. They are amazingly fast, but the steering is numb, and they still feel heavy. With or without traction control on. Like a bludgeon. Super powerful and super fast. Not nimble.

I like them, but they don't make the older Bimmers "obsolete. " That was my point. The older cars may be slower, but they are timeless from my perspective.

I'm hoping the G87 still has some of that old magic.

Yeah I'd say they're closer to muscle cars now than the scalpels of the past

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

Yeah I'd say they're closer to muscle cars now than the scalpels of the past

That's a great analogy.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Yes. They are amazingly fast, but the steering is numb, and they still feel heavy. With or without traction control on. Like a bludgeon. Super powerful and super fast. Not nimble.

I like them, but they don't make the older Bimmers "obsolete. " That was my point. The older cars may be slower, but they are timeless from my perspective.

I'm hoping the G87 still has some of that old magic.

It's not fair to idealise an old school 80s car for its dextrosity which has none of the evolutions and respects none of the current legislations.

When you want a nimble car these days, you can buy a few supercars made of carbon/alu, or a kitcar. Leaving out AWD and AT are not converting a fatty into an athlete, not at BMW wich offers both the best Xdrive and AT that the market currently produces and at the lowest added weight.

In 2022, an E30 M3 is totally obsolete since besides it's nimble, it's nothing what the G87 will offer you with its much wider range of abilities. Or is there anybody here seriously believing that the E30 eclipses the G87?

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Artemis

From an era without (way too) many iDrive / DriveLogic settings: one size fits all, except for a wing and a splitter.

Yes, balance is king. We know as BMW fans.
Mind to explain your message here? Tx

[G80indy]

I don't know…. But my G80 MT feels super connected and precise.
The suspension / geometry / feel is staggeringly good …
I kind of chuckle about people bitching about the steering feeling numb? Including some at Car & Driver.
It is so laser precise you move it a millimeter and it makes a change.

…so I don't need to feel every bump in the road through to the damn steering wheel!

This car is for the ages - The engine and chassis are an incredible improvement in total.
Mind you, I had an E92 competition.

I would expect the next M2 to follow suit

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by KoenG

It's not fair to idealise an old school 80s car for its dextrosity which has none of the evolutions and respects none of the current legislations.

When you want a nimble car these days, you can buy a few supercars made of carbon/alu, or a kitcar. Leaving out AWD and AT are not converting a fatty into an athlete, not at BMW wich offers both the best Xdrive and AT that the market currently produces and at the lowest added weight.

In 2022, an E30 M3 is totally obsolete since besides it's nimble, it's nothing what the G87 will offer you with its much wider range of abilities. Or is there anybody here seriously believing that the E30 eclipses the G87?

Put a well maintained e30 M3, with a G80, a trio of F87s (OG and competition), a couple e34s, a spare e46 or two, etc. and turn them loose on a typical mountain or coastal twisty road (as our club frequently does) and I challenge you to tell or show me how the e30 (m3 or even 325i or iS) is obsolete in any real world way. Heck, we often have a guy in a 1997 e36 M3 out in front and it's hard to keep up!

On a high speed track, or in a straight line, yes. Or in the realm of automatic this or electronic that, yes.

But not as a drivers car.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Put a well maintained e30 M3, with a G80, a trio of F87s (OG and competition), a couple e34s, a spare e46 or two, etc. and turn them loose on a typical mountain or coastal twisty road (as our club frequently does) and I challenge you to tell or show me how the e30 (m3 or even 325i or iS) is obsolete in any real world way. Heck, we often have a guy in a 1997 e36 M3 out in front and it's hard to keep up!

On a high speed track, or in a straight line, yes. Or in the realm of automatic this or electronic that, yes.

But not as a drivers car.

Yeah e36 is the pinnacle if you ask me.

[///BMW Junkie]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

Yeah e36 is the pinnacle if you ask me.

240x would destroy it in any situation

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie

240x would destroy it in any situation

Except for like everything that makes a bmw not a Nissan 🙄..

Wait you don't mean a m240 do you😂

[///BMW Junkie]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

Except for like everything that makes a bmw not a Nissan 🙄..

Wait you don't mean a m240 do you😂

Mlite 😂

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie

Mlite 😂

Mlite on steering feel, throttle response, and naturally aspirated goodness😂