[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by M2siast

So you think the F87 would be quicker than it was if it had run the longer track like the G87 did?
Maybe it would catch more momentum and take the last turn more quickly and go back in time?

Please read my language carefully. I did not say G87 isn't faster stock to stock. I simply believe F87 has a higher "potential" because it weighs much less in stock form, and I've seen how light it can be.

Many OEM suspension modifications, such as wider tracks, stiffer anti-roll bars, and softer rear springs were made to G87 to accommodate the additional weight of the engine and the chassis. When you start stripping the car for race spec, that inherent weight becomes a liability, and whatever advantage the additional bracing had becomes less apparent because lighter cars simply have higher momentum when paired with a suitable suspension.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Please read my language carefully. I did not say G87 isn't faster stock to stock. I simply believe F87 has a higher "potential" because it weighs much less in stock form, and I've seen how light it can be.

OEM suspension modifications, such as wider tracks, stiffer anti-roll bars, and softer rear springs were made to G87 to accommodate the additional weight of the engine and the chassis. When you start stripping the car for race spec, that inherent weight becomes a liability, and whatever advantage the additional bracing had becomes less apparent because lighter cars simply have higher momentum when paired with a suitable suspension.

Oh pardon my lack of clarity too! I didn’t understand you said the F87 was “quicker” than the G87.
I meant you said the F87 would’ve been quicker than the F87 if it had run the same Nordschleife track the G87 did (which is longer, and adds about 8 seconds to the old time).
I was being facetious because you seemed to have implied “discounting the difference in track length the difference could be even smaller”, (paraphrased) where the truth is if the tracks were the same the difference would be LARGER. Get it?

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I think official lap times are 13 sec apart (7:39 for G87, 7:52 for F87). That's approximately 1.5 sec per 1 min lap, a second of which you can attribute to the difference in tires (PS4S star vs PSS star).
Since you mentioned 8-sec improvement due to the track patch (circa 2018 I believe), the dynamics might be even closer than you think.

I also mentioned keeping the engine stock in order to focus on the chassis differences, as there is no guarantee that a G87 will be heavier or lighter than an F87 with an S58 swap. But if F87 is indeed lighter, the traction bit can be worked out through mods, leading to my belief that F87 may have a higher potential.

The adjusted time after the 2019 changes would be about 8:00 for the F87 on the new track layout, that was 7:38 for the G87, from times I have seen between the PSS and PS4S, it is more like 1.5 secs in a 2 minutes lap, perhaps adjusting the F87 to 7:56.

From the addition of front camber and 305 tyres on the Jackie Ding time attack car and based on his previous F87 experience, he sees a lot more potential in the G87 chassis. The CLAR G87 chassis amongst all other factors is just much stiffer than the F87 chassis, not something that can be easily compensated for. BMW quotes about 25% better torsional rigidity in G-series cars than F-series cars, besides any improvement in the suspension pickup point locations.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by aerobod

The adjusted time after the 2019 changes would be about 8:00 for the F87 on the new track layout, that was 7:38 for the G87, from times I have seen between the PSS and PS4S, it is more like 1.5 secs in a 2 minutes lap, perhaps adjusting the F87 to 7:56.

From the addition of front camber and 305 tyres on the Jackie Ding time attack car and based on his previous F87 experience, he sees a lot more potential in the G87 chassis. The CLAR G87 chassis amongst all other factors is just much stiffer than the F87 chassis, not something that can be easily compensated for. BMW quotes about 25% better torsional rigidity in G-series cars than F-series cars, besides any improvement in the suspension pickup point locations.

Originally Posted by M2siast

Oh pardon my lack of clarity too! I didn’t understand you said the F87 was “quicker” than the G87.
I meant you said the F87 would’ve been quicker than the F87 if it had run the same Nordschleife track the G87 did (which is longer, and adds about 8 seconds to the old time).
I was being facetious because you seemed to have implied “discounting the difference in track length the difference could be even smaller”, (paraphrased) where the truth is if the tracks were the same the difference would be LARGER. Get it?

I got the last bit confused, because Nordschleife times also got faster by a few seconds due to the new patch (compared to pre-2018.)

In that case, I think it is more appropriate to discuss the 13 sec difference.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Dude, you can keep your whining to yourself. Enjoy your auto.

At leaat I am not ignorant...and I will be glad to line up next to you and blow your manual doors off.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Please read my language carefully. I did not say G87 isn't faster stock to stock. I simply believe F87 has a higher "potential" because it weighs much less in stock form, and I've seen how light it can be.

Many OEM suspension modifications, such as wider tracks, stiffer anti-roll bars, and softer rear springs were made to G87 to accommodate the additional weight of the engine and the chassis. When you start stripping the car for race spec, that inherent weight becomes a liability, and whatever advantage the additional bracing had becomes less apparent because lighter cars simply have higher momentum when paired with a suitable suspension.

You do realize the S58 is far superior to the S55 AND has far more reliability and potential than the inferior S55.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

You do realize the S58 is far superior to the S55 AND has far more reliability and potential than the inferior S55.

Read my other posts. You are confusing G87/F87 with the engines. These are chassis codes.

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

At leaat I am not ignorant...and I will be glad to line up next to you and blow your manual doors off.

Yes... I am sure you are very mature.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

You do realize the S58 is far superior to the S55 AND has far more reliability and potential than the inferior S55.

HOWEVER, when it comes to working on an S55 or S58, just remember the S58 has the VANOS behind the engine and the S55 has it in front, hence it is cheaper to work on an S55 than an S58.

[Tornado1M]

I’m going to agree with the overwhelming majority here that this G87 just doesn’t look right…..I’d prefer the M240 which just looks cleaner in my opinion.

However, neither come close to the F87 with respect to looks.

Now, options out there are low for new cars in this category…so, I can see on price to value for this kind of car….buyers are basically just getting it because there is not much else. Rear wheel drive manual that is!

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by MmmmmM2

HOWEVER, when it comes to working on an S55 or S58, just remember the S58 has the VANOS behind the engine and the S55 has it in front, hence it is cheaper to work on an S55 than an S58.

The VANOS on the B58 / S58 has not proven to be a weak point from a hydraulics perspective, as it was in the N55 / S55 and earlier engines. You can also replace the solenoids on the B58 / S58 with the engine in place, with no significant weak points in the engine design otherwise, unlike some of the N55 / S55 issues such as crank walk.

[MineralGreyMetallic]

Originally Posted by Tornado1M

I’m going to agree with the overwhelming majority here that this G87 just doesn’t look right…..I’d prefer the M240 which just looks cleaner in my opinion.

However, neither come close to the F87 with respect to looks.

Now, options out there are low for new cars in this category…so, I can see on price to value for this kind of car….buyers are basically just getting it because there is not much else. Rear wheel drive manual that is!

This is a great point. The look of the car has definitely grown on me, but if I want an "updated" version of my 6 year old 2017, where do I go?

Seems like the G87 is the only option.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Read my other posts. You are confusing G87/F87 with the engines. These are chassis codes.

I don't really understand the argument you are trying to make. BMW engine swaps are not exactly a common thing.

So in practical terms, F87 DOES means N55, and G87 means S58. There's no reason to pretend othewise.

Now, given an equivalent amount of modding, the G87 beats F87. Handily. It handles better, it brakes better, it has a more powerful motor (with a higher ceiling), it has better cooling. A few hundred pounds in stock weight isn't going to counteract all the advantages the G87 has.

So I think the G87 has the higher ceiling.

Edit: If you mean the F87 FAMILY (the F87C and F87CS), then maybe there's an argument to be made. But the base F87 with N55 is not competitive.

[Geighty7]

People arguing about cars is so silly. Get what you want and don’t make fun of what others want/have. Simple.

I love my G87. It’s fast af. I think it is sexy af. I spent good money getting one of my dream cars. I’m happy.

Do others agree on the looks? Maybe maybe not. Do I care? Not one bit.

Line it up if you think you’re faster or better! If not, mind you our own car and take care.

To each their own!

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by Geighty7

People arguing about cars is so silly. Get what you want and don’t make fun of what others want/have. Simple.

I love my G87. It’s fast af. I think it is sexy af. I spent good money getting one of my dream cars. I’m happy.

Do others agree on the looks? Maybe maybe not. Do I care? Not one bit.

Line it up if you think you’re faster or better! If not, mind you our own car and take care.

To each their own!

You must be new here. (Good for you)
You’ll notice that every time a thread gets popular or is featured on Bimmerpost’s homepage, the rats come up from the sewers to chew on our rugs… you’ll learn to ignore them.

I used to refer to them as F87/G42 bros. But they come in all shapes and forms.

I agree with you though, otherwise I’d be all over the F87/G42 threads telling them how ugly and slow their cars are… imagine that… we have enough internal drama here in the G87 forum lol

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by M2siast

You must be new here. (Good for you)
You’ll notice that every time a thread gets popular or is featured on Bimmerpost’s homepage, the rats come up from the sewers to chew on our rugs… you’ll learn to ignore them.

I used to refer to them as F87/G42 bros. But they come in all shapes and forms.

I agree with you though, otherwise I’d be all over the F87/G42 threads telling them how ugly and slow their cars are… imagine that… we have enough internal drama here in the G87 forum lol

Again, proving the worst part about the new m2 is its owners.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by murderspice

Again, proving the worst part about the new m2 is its owners.

Fully agreed.
Now, think about it: there are possibly two reasons to engage in a car forum of a specific car:

1- you like said car
2- you enjoy the conversation with owners of said car

Since you:
1- don’t like the G87, and own an F87
2- don’t like the G87 owners and the forum

What are you doing here?

Oh, wait, it’s option number 3!
Let me do the same, and go to the other ugly cars forums and express my feelings about how ugly their cars are!
And since I have so much free time and I’m such a great human being, I won’t just stop at Bimmerpost’s forums (which ones are popular now? M3? XM? 7-series? X2? 1-series?), I’ll find some more time to go to other brands’ forums too! The world needs me. Hang on, be right back.

[idriveuscream]

Chris Harris Drives The New BMW M2 - "I was wrong...sensational...it might be one of the best all rounders I have ever driven." Wow. And this guy loves the "beautiful" F87 M2 competition. I think the F87 is a beautiful car how could anyone make a serious argument that it's ugly. There seems to be a good bit of confirmation bias and intellectual dishonesty on this particular thread but that's okay, passion tends to do that. I have watched countless G87 review videos and they all have one thing in common, it doesn't matter if the reviewer is already bias "for" or "against" the new G87, once they are behind the wheel and driving, every single one of them is giddy with enthusiasm. Again and again reviewers who are heavily negative, get in, start driving, start shaking their heads, start smiling, and they are won over big time. S58 check. My goodness that alone.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by M2siast

What are you doing here?

Having owned the first gen i was interested in seeing what bmw followed up with; hence, “why im here.” Apparently, only sycophants are welcome. And hopefully you noticed that i did not comment on the qualities of the car, but on my impression of their owners, to which you did not disappoint.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by murderspice

Having owned the first gen i was interested in seeing what bmw followed up with; hence, “why im here.” Apparently, only sycophants are welcome. And hopefully you noticed that i did not comment on the qualities of the car, but on my impression of their owners, to which you did not disappoint.

Ah but it looks like you are unaware we can see your previous posts… I guess, once again, if I drew the analogy of anyone here going over to your forum to say things such as the ones below, you’d be saying the same thing about them.
If you don’t see you’re the problem, I’m not sure what to tell you.

- “If I owned an old f87 m2, I’d hold onto it.” Basically, what made the 1m and f87 great has been “consigned to history.” Unfortunately, those shoes were too big to fill.

Originally Posted by T_U_D

I am guessing we will not see a video from him until BMW UK provides him with a press vehicle.

You are more than likely aware, but Chris owns a F87 CS wrapped in BRG, British Racing Green.

- I doubt harris will like it very much considering he prefers the 1m to the f87 for its raw/edginess. Also, i believe he sold his cs a while back.

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

The g87 forum has a 40+ page thread with people bickering about the reviews.

- Frankly, it’s a bunch of copium since the new reviews didnt proclaim it any better than its predecessor. I guess if i was dropping $70k+ on a new car hoping to cash in on a legacy, id be pretty invested in it being seen as clearly better too.

Originally Posted by M Fifty

There were some haters, but they seemed to be M4 owners who suddenly realised how far their cars had strayed from the original concept of M-cars.

- This is exactly my reaction to the g87; how in just one generation it went from a relatively pure “m” vehicle — to whatever the m4 has become.

Originally Posted by DanG

I am not a fan of the exterior of the G87. With a smaller back seat headroom and almost no performance gain I just cant see getting rid of my M2.

The decision is close to why trade an OG M2 for an M2C as a daily driver. Neither the M2C or the G87 will out perform an OG M2 on the street in stock form. Both are probably a better track car but that is not what I buy a car for.

It will be very interesting to see how the F87 values hold up.

- I didnt mention why I still think the og is better than the comp, but you about summed it up. Even worse that a brand new car barely outperforms both.

- Ha, 4 pages already. You people don’t disappoint. The worst thing about the g87 (other than the looks), are the owners. (Back in May)

[MineralGreyMetallic]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the spirit of this thread.

Criticisms are welcome and discussion is appreciated, from my perspective. No car is perfect. Just don't let it devolve into a pissing contest.

[MMMGuy60]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Fully agreed.
Now, think about it: there are possibly two reasons to engage in a car forum of a specific car:

1- you like said car
2- you enjoy the conversation with owners of said car

Since you:
1- don’t like the G87, and own an F87
2- don’t like the G87 owners and the forum

What are you doing here?

Oh, wait, it’s option number 3!
Let me do the same, and go to the other ugly cars forums and express my feelings about how ugly their cars are!
And since I have so much free time and I’m such a great human being, I won’t just stop at Bimmerpost’s forums (which ones are popular now? M3? XM? 7-series? X2? 1-series?), I’ll find some more time to go to other brands’ forums too! The world needs me. Hang on, be right back.

Let's be real, the only reason the F87 owners are here is because the F87 forum is dead. Nobody pays any attention to his car because it is dated and old. The only reaction he gets is by being a troll/hater here.

I think the F87 looks like a secretary car, but you do not see me going to the f87 forum. Adding another F87 owner/hater to my ignore/block list.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by MMMGuy60

Let's be real, the only reason the F87 owners are here is because the F87 forum is dead. Nobody pays any attention to his car because it is dated and old. The only reaction he gets is by being a troll/hater here.

I think the F87 looks like a secretary car, but you do not see me going to the f87 forum. Adding another F87 owner/hater to my ignore/block list.

When I had the 135i I thought the M2 was ugly, never liked the proportions of the rear. The 1 series was never a “beautiful” car, when it launched it was considered ugly too. The difference is that I never went on the M2 forums to say that their car had weird rear proportions compared to my car, and how it had a similar N55 engine to my car, and how my car was better than theirs because I paid less and could tune it and give it a run for its money. The things we’re used to seeing here.
What’s worse, though, is that most have never even driven it. Many have never even seen the car yet! But the opinions flow freely. And when we point it out, we’re the problem…

I was one to say I was scared of the leaked bumper when the car was about to be revealed. Didn’t come here to bitch about it.
I went in, drove it, bought it. Have been smiling everyday since.