[e90AW335i]

Mr 5. and I were discussing this in another thread, but instead of being off-topic in there I thought I would start a new one.

Here is a comparison of JB2H and JB2H w/DP's

I know two differnt dynos, two differnt days, two differnt locations. Still, it is something to compare and discuss. Don't flame me for it....

JB2 before aftermarket catted DP's (Mr. 5)




JB2H w/ catted DP's (aftermarket) (Mr. 5)



JB2H w/ UR's catless DP's



EDIT: Here is one with JB2 vs JB2 w/ UR catles DP's (keep in mind the octanes are different)

[jpsimon]

are those catted or catless dps?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

are those catted or catless dps?

Why did I think of swallows when I read that.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

are those catted or catless dps?

Sorry, I will edit above. Mr. 5 has aftermarket catted DP's I believe. The second run is with UR's catless DP's. Hopefully Mr. 5 will chime in....

[scalbert]

IMO, yes, they can. But it is not a guarantee on all vehicles.

[e90AW335i]

I updated the first post with some new graphs for comparison....

[Evo8MRto335I]

I think it will add power. I must do some search but I beleive UR tested theirs with just the Downpipe mod and still made huge gains. I want to say that they had their car stock at the time.

[CanadianTSi]

I would say 90% of the time they will give nice gains, although there might be some instances that they could change the tune so significantly (ie. lean the car out to much or cause a big boost spike) that the car knocks and loses power. This is all cars in general not just the 335.

EDIT, So it looks like he gained 20whp and 10wtrq without a Tune...

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I

I think it will add power. I must do some search but I beleive UR tested theirs with just the Downpipe mod and still made huge gains. I want to say that they had their car stock at the time.

From what I remember I think they did as well. No matter what, the DP's will add power, but with a custom tune the potential is even greater (obviously).

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I

I think it will add power. I must do some search but I beleive UR tested theirs with just the Downpipe mod and still made huge gains. I want to say that they had their car stock at the time.

This is the problem and misconception. One would think that if there was a 25 whp gain from stock then I could just add that to the whp of my tune.

All aftermarket companies that sell Downpipes only show gains from stock.
They take a completely stock car and put DPs on them and show big gains.
In the UR thread, different users posted, "What about on a tuned car?" There was no answer to this or we got a response that there was no tune around that they could get their hands on (which was complete BS since people offered).

The answer to this question is NO!

I proved this with the Procede:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1393&highlight

I got close to the same hp with my DPs than I did with stock using the same dyno and same car.

[Mr. 5]

Kyle, I appreciate you trying to find a true answer to this, but when you post graphs on your first post, try to keep to something that we could compare.

We can't compare a curve if it's done using different octane and we can't compare things that were done using a different dyno.
The first graph would have been good to compare to the second if I didn't use the H pill on the second graph. Since I used the H pill with the JB2 then you can't compare them.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Kyle, I appreciate you trying to find a true answer to this, but when you post graphs on your first post, try to keep to something that we could compare.

We can't compare a curve if it's done using different octane and we can't compare things that were done using a different dyno.

Yeah that is why I prefaced it with that statement. I couldn't find anything else that was done on the same dyno, same car, same day, same octane. But, I did what I could and we can discuss based on what is there.

Hopefully someone will do a true test soon enough....

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by kyleh4852

Yeah that is why I prefaced it with that statement. I couldn't find anything else that was done on the same dyno, same car, same day, same octane. But, I did what I could and we can discuss based on what is there.

Hopefully someone will do a true test soon enough....

Ya, I'm glad you brought this up because I still stand by my statement of "DPs not adding power if you have a tune" until I see something to pursuade me otherwise.
I'd like to see other people's graphs.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Ya, I'm glad you brought this up because I still stand by my statement of "DPs not adding power if you have a tune" until I see something to pursuade me otherwise.
I'd like to see other people's graphs.

Completely understandable. Hopefully we can see something soon that will show us the true answer. I have a feeling we will since people will be getting DP's to get the advantage of V2.1....

Maybe someone who has dynoed before with V2 will dyno after they get their DP's but before they load V2.1, that way we can see the same car, same dyno, same octane that we are looking for. Even if it is a differnt day, at least it will be closer to the conditions you and I are looking for to get a conclusive answer.

[e90AW335i]

Something worthwhile to notice from this is that JB2H responds well to catted DP's as well. I mean you gained 23hp from catted DP's and the H pill...not too bad at all.

I have a feeling with catless you would see something even greater than that. Maybe an addition 10rwhp or so....

[Ultimate Racing]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

All aftermarket companies that sell Downpipes only show gains from stock.
They take a completely stock car and put DPs on them and show big gains.
In the UR thread, different users posted, "What about on a tuned car?" There was no answer to this or we got a response that there was no tune around that they could get their hands on (which was complete BS since people offered).

Tell me why you think it is imperative for a manufacturer to have to prove the potential of someone else's product? In the case of a tune, I would sincerely think that it be up to the tuner to obtain the product so that they can improve their own library of tunes. We show the gains that we always do, versus stock. That way there should be no argument on whether or not the product performs. In that original thread I recall you consistently blaming the downpipe manufacturers for knowing and withholding information. This was not true, atleast on our part, and really was not appreciated. Our product was available to anyone that wanted it.

But to put this to end (although I'm sure it won't for some reason) we dyno'd a forum member's 335xi that was equipped with JB2 before and after installing our high flow catted downpipes. I will post that up for you guys tomorrow. I also believe that Terry had posted some before and after dyno charts of our catless downpipes along with his JB2R.

Darryl
www.ultimate-racing.com

[Mr. 5]

First of all, if anybody feels that the dynos that I did showing no gains are false then you are very welcomed to give Mark Dibella a call at MD Automotive (714) 891-1113 and he will verify that all of the dyno testing that I've done is legit.
Every single time I have dyno'd my car every step of the way has been the same procedure every single time.

I will give you my opinions and they are solely my opinions (just like in the past...opinions):

- I strongly do believe that the DP companies did not show any comparisons with tuners because the DP companies knew that there was little to no gains.
-The vast majority of people that put downpipes on a car do not put downpipes on a stock car.
-The minority of people that put DPs on a stock car plan on putting a tune on that same car
-By having no increase of power when adding DPs to a tuned car should make the DP manufacturer worried about not selling as many DPs in the Future unless there is a Tune for the DPs.
-DP companies should get together with other tuners to come up with a solution for the no gains so they will sell more DPs.

Maybe we should talk about this by saying it plain and simple:

-You proved that there was a gain over stock
-I proved that there was no gain when adding the DPs to a Procede.

I guess you're fine with the above statement. I'm not.
I've wanted to do something about it for quite some while now, but until there is a tune to match my DPs, I will keep telling people the truth about DPs and tunes. There's no gain!

Originally Posted by Ultimate Racing

Tell me why you think it is imperative for a manufacturer to have to prove the potential of someone else's product? In the case of a tune, I would sincerely think that it be up to the tuner to obtain the product so that they can improve their own library of tunes. We show the gains that we always do, versus stock. That way there should be no argument on whether or not the product performs. In that original thread I recall you consistently blaming the downpipe manufacturers for knowing and withholding information. This was not true, atleast on our part, and really was not appreciated. Our product was available to anyone that wanted it.

But to put this to end (although I'm sure it won't for some reason) we dyno'd a forum member's 335xi that was equipped with JB2 before and after installing our high flow catted downpipes. I will post that up for you guys tomorrow. I also believe that Terry had posted some before and after dyno charts of our catless downpipes along with his JB2R.

Darryl
www.ultimate-racing.com

[Ultimate Racing]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

First of all, if anybody feels that the dynos that I did showing no gains are false then you are very welcomed to give Mark Dibella a call at MD Automotive (714) 891-1113 and he will verify that all of the dyno testing that I've done is legit.
Every single time I have dyno'd my car every step of the way has been the same procedure every single time.

I will give you my opinions and they are solely my opinions (just like in the past...opinions):

- I strongly do believe that the DP companies did not show any comparisons with tuners because the DP companies knew that there was little to no gains.
-The vast majority of people that put downpipes on a car do not put downpipes on a stock car.
-The minority of people that put DPs on a stock car plan on putting a tune on that same car
-By having no increase of power when adding DPs to a tuned car should make the DP manufacturer worried about not selling as many DPs in the Future unless there is a Tune for the DPs.
-DP companies should get together with other tuners to come up with a solution for the no gains so they will sell more DPs.

Maybe we should talk about this by saying it plain and simple:

-You proved that there was a gain over stock
-I proved that there was no gain when adding the DPs to a Procede.

I guess you're fine with the above statement. I'm not.
I've wanted to do something about it for quite some while now, but until there is a tune to match my DPs, I will keep telling people the truth about DPs and tunes. There's no gain!

I don't ever recall discrediting your dyno charts? Or did I miss something?

As for the "vast majority of people" that install downpipes and a tune at the same time, are you referring to the the 335i market? I don't think you are. We come from the Subaru WRX/STi, and Evo world where installing a "turboback" exhaust (downpipe + catback) on a stock tuned engine is common practice.

A vast majority of our 335i and 335xi customers have no interest in having their cars tuned with any type of piggyback, chip, flash, etc. They simply want to install an intake, and complete exhaust (downpipe + catback) for the added power and great sound.

Our downpipes make power. The tunes (at the time) were not compatible and didn't make gobs of power on each and every application. How you expected us to know this is beyond me. Why you are accusing us of knowing is a bit annoying.

Yes, we proved that the downpipes make power over stock (which I believe is most important). What you have proven is that adding Procede to our downpipes won't make much more power than what our downpipes are already giving.

Like I said, I will be posting a dyno chart tomorrow (and of course) know it won't change everyone's mind. I guess nothing will?

Darryl
www.ultimate-racing.com

[Mr. 5]

You never discredited my dynos. I added that just in case someone decides to.
I was actually refering to the 335 market when I made the comment about adding DPs to a tune. I honestly can't see anyone going through the hassel of putting DPs on this engine without putting on a tune at one point in time.I just can't see it.


I'm interested in seeing your dynos though.
Please make sure the tunes are exactly the same before and after the DPs.
Again, I don't want to see a JB2 before and a JB2H after. Or, 91 octane before and 100 octane after.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Racing

I don't ever recall discrediting your dyno charts? Or did I miss something?

As for the "vast majority of people" that install downpipes and a tune at the same time, are you referring to the the 335i market? I don't think you are. We come from the Subaru WRX/STi, and Evo world where installing a "turboback" exhaust (downpipe + catback) on a stock tuned engine is common practice.

A vast majority of our 335i and 335xi customers have no interest in having their cars tuned with any type of piggyback, chip, flash, etc. They simply want to install an intake, and complete exhaust (downpipe + catback) for the added power and great sound.

Our downpipes make power. The tunes (at the time) were not compatible and didn't make gobs of power on each and every application. How you expected us to know this is beyond me. Why you are accusing us of knowing is a bit annoying.

Yes, we proved that the downpipes make power over stock (which I believe is most important). What you have proven is that adding Procede to our downpipes won't make much more power than what our downpipes are already giving.

Like I said, I will be posting a dyno chart tomorrow (and of course) know it won't change everyone's mind. I guess nothing will?

Darryl
www.ultimate-racing.com

[CASHBY]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Racing

Tell me why you think it is imperative for a manufacturer to have to prove the potential of someone else's product? In the case of a tune, I would sincerely think that it be up to the tuner to obtain the product so that they can improve their own library of tunes. We show the gains that we always do, versus stock. That way there should be no argument on whether or not the product performs. In that original thread I recall you consistently blaming the downpipe manufacturers for knowing and withholding information. This was not true, atleast on our part, and really was not appreciated. Our product was available to anyone that wanted it.

But to put this to end (although I'm sure it won't for some reason) we dyno'd a forum member's 335xi that was equipped with JB2 before and after installing our high flow catted downpipes. I will post that up for you guys tomorrow. I also believe that Terry had posted some before and after dyno charts of our catless downpipes along with his JB2R.

Darryl
www.ultimate-racing.com

Plus 1000, not up to people that make the downpipes to make sure it makes power with a tune, it should be up to the tuner to make a map to make power with downpipes. Since you cant tune a DP for a "chip", but you can tune a "chip" for downpipes.

And yes, Terry made quite a bit of WHP with his JBS2 and downpipes!

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by CEA 3

And yes, Terry made quite a bit of WHP with his JBS2 and downpipes!

Are you sure he wasn't using the hot pill?

[who's ur daddy?]

I believe I was the xi test mule in question. Not a huge gain, but the dyno chart I was given definitely showed gains. Something like +6 whp and +15 wtq. JBS2 was fully adapted by the time of installation of the DP's.