[Squidget]

The Dark Horse is starting to show up in more videos, although it's pretty slim on details.

However, from what I have seen, the DH is actually trending more towards the G87's philosophies. So let me list stuff I've seen and speculate. Feel free to join in.

(The pricing can be significantly higher or lower than the G87, because of the various packs and optioning. So direct comparisons on cost is tricky.)

What gets Upgraded?

The Mustang has that sweet Coyote V8 with 500 HP as befits its muscle car heritage. It's gonna have a better exhaust note for sure. Naturally Aspirated, linear power band, with less power down low. (#TH4GC!!! lol)

Turn-in and steering have improved, rigidity is better, anti-roll is improved, this will probably be the best Mustang yet for technical track work. Maybe even finally complete with SS 1LEs for real.

MT: DH replaced the MT Getrag with the Tremac, yay! Probably better shifter experience than the G87 now.

AT: The AT 10spd is not getting great reviews, seems to be doing more gear hunting. The G87 probably has the better AT.

Interior screens seems quite ID8-like, but the DH gets analog gauges on their screens. I'm jealous.

MagneRide has improved a little, but it probably still can't match the G87 CLAR platform on turn-in, roll and weight transfer.

Both cars are full brake by wire. DH is carrying Brembo 6 piston front, 4 pistons rear. But I don't have any sense of how well the DH compares to the G87 yet.

Is it a a do-everything car like the G87?

DH can't span the gulf between Daily Driving and Track as well as the G87. Critically, you'll need to decide whether to get the Handling Pack ($5K). So you'll need to commit to having a better street car or a better track car. DH won't be the do-it-all car the G87 is.

The Trofeos in the Handling Pack are sweet, though! 305 in front, 315 in back. A DH with Handling Pack should handily beat a G87 in a straight line, and meet or beat it on power tracks.

G87 still has far better interior materials, probably a quieter cabin and better speakers. Not sure about other practicalities, such as rear seat room or trunk.

How do they compare?

At $61K (or $66K with handling package), I think this is a worthwhile car to compare to the G87.

On paper, I think they trade wins and losses on various things, and the price ranges are pretty close overall.

My current view is that:

1) If you want to be generally good at everything, the G87 is still the pick.

2) If you care less about the track and don't need the luxury of the G87, the base DH is a good deal and a way to save some cash. Wanna just cruise the streets with that awesome brap brap V8 sound, maybe do some burnouts and red light races? This is the one.

3) If you want to do drag races or long power tracks, and complete with SS 1LEs, maybe the DH with Handling Pack is the answer. Jury is still out here how well the DH with Pack will compare with the G87 or 1LE or C8, and on what kinds of tracks. Time will tell.

[c1pher]

I’ve never seen a Ford that can hang with a BMW or Toyota in the overall fit and finish and quality department. I have a Super Duty and really like it but it’s a truck and there’s certain things you have to live without. Lots of hard plastics, generally crappy ride. Seats are okay, sound systems is okay and it can tow a mountain which is what I needed for. I owned a 2011 Mustang and it was similarly built. Obviously rode and drove better but I upgraded to a 135is which I felt was a pretty good jump in terms of quality and how solid everything was.

I just priced one out and there’s no way I’d pay $70k for a Mustang GT. I realize prices have gone crazy but most I’d pay is like $50k full boat.

[JustinHEMI]

I'd never spend 70K on a Ford. YMMV. Good to have options though!

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

I'd never spend 70K on a Ford. YMMV. Good to have options though!

My Super Duty cost $70k but I can put my truck camper in the bed and attach my jet skis and go down the highway without hardly noticing I have anything in the back. It has a 7.3L “Godzilla” motor. That’s really what you’re paying for so I can live with some of the hard molded plastic in some areas.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

I'd never spend 70K on a Ford. YMMV. Good to have options though!

Ford dealer techs couldn't service my '96 Mustang GT 4.6l V8 engine correctly. Supposed to have 6 quarts of oil but it always left the service bay low on oil. Got tired of having to fight with the various service departments over this and just added a quart before I left the service area.

Be a cold day in Hell before I bought another Ford. And a $70K Ford? It would have to be a cold year...

[M_Power Rob]

The Aluminator and Predator are badass motors but Ford cars are junk.

[RobTile]

Can’t wait for my 24 raptor ranger. It’s gonna be sick.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Ford dealer techs couldn't service my '96 Mustang GT 4.6l V8 engine correctly. Supposed to have 6 quarts of oil but it always left the service bay low on oil. Got tired of having to fight with the various service departments over this and just added a quart before I left the service area.

Be a cold day in Hell before I bought another Ford. And a $70K Ford? It would have to be a cold year...

I have these artificial road blocks in my head. For example, I say "I could never afford a P-car," but that's mostly because of an artificial block in my head for what I'm willing to spend on a car. Haha. Ford just doesn't rise to >50K money for me. There's no science or real basis behind it, just what I have in my mind's eye.

Anyway, to be fair, BMW service couldn't properly do my break in service on my F87. They put the wrong rear end fluid in, then wanted to argue about it before making it right. There's a thread about it in the F87 forum.

Most recently, BMW service couldn't handle simply mounting and balancing new tires. Claimed the vibration I had post install was "normal for M cars."

I've decided all service sucks.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

I have these artificial road blocks in my head. For example, I say "I could never afford a P-car," but that's mostly because of an artificial block in my head for what I'm willing to spend on a car. Haha. Ford just doesn't rise to >50K money for me. There's no science or real basis behind it, just what I have in my mind's eye.

Anyway, to be fair, BMW service couldn't properly do my break in service on my F87. They put the wrong rear end fluid in, then wanted to argue about it before making it right. There's a thread about it in the F87 forum.

Most recently, BMW service couldn't handle simply mounting and balancing new tires. Claimed the vibration I had post install was "normal for M cars."

I've decided all service sucks.

Your experience is unfortunate. And a bit troubling being it was with a BMW dealer service department.

Nothing kills my "love" of a car faster than lousy dealer service. And I don't consider an indy shop a suitable substitute.

[AZG87]

Originally Posted by Squidget

The Dark Horse is starting to show up in more videos, although it's pretty slim on details.

However, from what I have seen, the DH is actually trending more towards the G87's philosophies. So let me list stuff I've seen and speculate. Feel free to join in.

(The pricing can be significantly higher or lower than the G87, because of the various packs and optioning. So direct comparisons on cost is tricky.)

What gets Upgraded?

The Mustang has that sweet Coyote V8 with 500 HP as befits its muscle car heritage. It's gonna have a better exhaust note for sure. Naturally Aspirated, linear power band, with less power down low. (#TH4GC!!! lol)

Turn-in and steering have improved, rigidity is better, anti-roll is improved, this will probably be the best Mustang yet for technical track work. Maybe even finally complete with SS 1LEs for real.

MT: DH replaced the MT Getrag with the Tremac, yay! Probably better shifter experience than the G87 now.

AT: The AT 10spd is not getting great reviews, seems to be doing more gear hunting. The G87 probably has the better AT.

Interior screens seems quite ID8-like, but the DH gets analog gauges on their screens. I'm jealous.

MagneRide has improved a little, but it probably still can't match the G87 CLAR platform on turn-in, roll and weight transfer.

Both cars are full brake by wire. DH is carrying Brembo 6 piston front, 4 pistons rear. But I don't have any sense of how well the DH compares to the G87 yet.

Is it a a do-everything car like the G87?

DH can't span the gulf between Daily Driving and Track [...]

Coming from a late model Coyote A10 with more power and handling than the DH offers (and for significantly less ) I will add a few observations. Straight line, strip and raw power the Coyote will take this one. Long tubes on this v-8 does have an exhaust note as well the G87 cannot touch.

That said, the power delivery on the G87 is much more refined. It would take the Coyote all day on a road coarse. The G87 interior is far superior to the most upgraded premium package interior of the Mustang. Looks are subjective but the M2 has an aggressive yet luxury look to it vs the typical pony car. A mid pipe swap(or dp too) can also get the exhaust closer to that v-8 sound though will never be the same.

To sum up, the G87 is an upgrade all around and one I am happy to trade up for.

[Jackie Chiles]

[QUOTE=Squidget;30377135]


(The pricing can be significantly higher or lower than the G87, because of the various packs and optioning. So direct comparisons on cost is tricky.)



At $61K (or $66K with handling package), I think this is a worthwhile car to compare to the G87.

- - - -

These cars will be very hard to get, with each dealer getting only one allocation. And I was also told that there would be significant ADMs attached.

I just ordered an M2, but it was an easy choice bc I refuse to pay over MSRP and I couldn't get a Dark Horse even if I was will to to.

[Sebis]

Good luck finding an allocation for DH at MSRP, Ford dealers as are asking $10 to 15K ADM.

As a current F-150 owner, I can attest the crappy interiors (lots of hard plastic) that come from Ford, I would never buy a sports/luxury car from them. I do love my truck thou and the V8 engine is sweet.

[ourlee]

Cool car, super long, pass 189.4 to 189.7″

[markcu24]

I'll also see about 15,000 of them on the road when I drive 5 miles to the grocery store.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Ford dealer techs couldn't service my '96 Mustang GT 4.6l V8 engine correctly. Supposed to have 6 quarts of oil but it always left the service bay low on oil. Got tired of having to fight with the various service departments over this and just added a quart before I left the service area.

Be a cold day in Hell before I bought another Ford. And a $70K Ford? It would have to be a cold year...

I have noticed this is becoming a problem. I had a Ram Promaster with the diesel motor. Only a handful of dealers in my area were certified and out of those, I am not really sure who had fully competent techs. When my glow tubes went bad, the tech broke them trying to get them out. Then they had to take the engine out and put it back together again. I was without the van for about six weeks. When they said it was ready, I start the truck and immediately have a bunch of errors. I sold it back to them and bought a gas van I never had an issue servicing.

One of the reasons I am hesitant to buy a Z06 or even the ERay or something unusual from another brand is that not all dealer can actually work on your car. If they don't routinely sell those type of cars, then the dealer doesn't feel they need to spend the money on training for the techs.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by AZG87

That said, the power delivery on the G87 is much more refined. It would take the Coyote all day on a road coarse.

I think that's likely true, because the G87 has been seriously impressive in cornering, precision and braking. The DH can't make up those advantages with HP alone.

I want to know if the Handling Pack actually would let the Mustang compete with, well, anything, on the track. History would say no.

Mustangs usually get dusted on track by other cars in the same price range. It would be nice for that to change, especially since the Camaro is going away. At this rate, soon the only American car getting tracked will be Vettes.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I think that's likely true, because the G87 has been seriously impressive in cornering, precision and braking. The DH can't make up those advantages with HP alone.

I want to know if the Handling Pack actually would let the Mustang compete with, well, anything, on the track. History would say no.

Mustangs usually get dusted on track by other cars in the same price range. It would be nice for that to change, especially since the Camaro is going away. At this rate, soon the only American car getting tracked will be Vettes.

I was really surprised when I saw several comparos and the GT500 with all its power couldn't beat anything with 2/3 the power off the line. Of course once it gets steam going, it probably very fast.

[Humdizzle]

i'd lean bmw

you will see mustangs everywhere. A 2 series in general is a rare siting. ford has rental car level interiors as well. The only positive for the ford is the 5.0 which is going to sound better and have better response than a 3.0. The mag ride might be better than BMWs suspension setup too.

i'd wait and see what the shelby offers. that will have the tremec box and be more in line with a high spec M2.

[baron95]

I currently have a Camaro SS1LE. I briefly considered a C8, the Mustang Dark Horse, and an G80/G82 as the replacement, before settling on the M2.

It is funny how the new Mustang DH (and other variants in premium trim) have nearly the exact same screen layout as the iDrive 8+. Ford enables *A LOT* more customization of the screens.

Here is why I chose the M2 in rough order of importance:

1 - M2 is the least expensive M-car. It is great and properly priced. The Mustang DH will be the most expensive car in Ford's line up (yes, they have more expensive trucks, and SUVs, but not cars or performance cars at this time).

It is always better to buy a small house in an expensive neighborhood, than the biggest/most expensive house in a bad neighborhood.

2 - M2 has a monster engine, held back by a weak tune to preserve hierarchy. Mustang DH, has a good engine, but it is tuned to the max. If I ever want more power, I know I can buy a $700 Racechip or Carbahn or JB4 and get an easy 20% bump.

Again, better to buy a house that is easier/cheaper to expand, than one that is maxed out.

3 - Dealer Experience. The DH and M2 are special cars, but when you walk into a ford dealership they need to treat you as a mass market customer. Better chance of a somewhat more personal treatment at a BMW dealer.

4 - Usability. I will on occasion have my kids in the back. Getting in/out of an M2 is tough, but once seated it is comfortable except for head room for those above 5'10" or so. On the Mustang your head literally presses against the rear glass.

5 - Shorter, slightly narrower, better visibility car. This makes a huge difference in the pleasure of driving on the street, back roads. The hood sight lines are much better in the BMW. The M2 does feel a class smaller in size to the Mustang/Camaro, even though the dimensions are similar.

6 - Interior quality.

Some things are a wash. Performance on track should be similar.

Some things are better in the Mustang. Much more tire. Brakes that are much easier to change pads if you track. Less complexity - no need to "code" to change batteries of put in service mode to change pads. Cost of parts is lower. Ford dealers are much more numerous, etc. The lower horizontal oil cooler on the M2 is a nightmare if you ever have an off on track.

Overall, I think the M2 is such a nice package and entry into M, that it is hard to pass. I feel that the next steps up in the line up (M4, M8) are so close in performance and interior space as to make the M2 a no-brianer.

[ronin13013]

Mustang and many others have been chasing the BMW aesthetic ever since the E92 M3.

Originally Posted by baron95

I currently have a Camaro SS1LE. I briefly considered a C8, the Mustang Dark Horse, and an G80/G82 as the replacement, before settling on the M2.

It is funny how the new Mustang DH (and other variants in premium trim) have nearly the exact same screen layout as the iDrive 8+. Ford enables *A LOT* more customization of the screens.

Here is why I chose the M2 in rough order of importance:

1 - M2 is the least expensive M-car. It is great and properly priced. The Mustang DH will be the most expensive car in Ford's line up (yes, they have more expensive trucks, and SUVs, but not cars or performance cars at this time).

It is always better to buy a small house in an expensive neighborhood, than the biggest/most expensive house in a bad neighborhood.

2 - M2 has a monster engine, held back by a weak tune to preserve hierarchy. Mustang DH, has a good engine, but it is tuned to the max. If I ever want more power, I know I can buy a $700 Racechip or Carbahn or JB4 and get an easy 20% bump.

Again, better to buy a house that is easier/cheaper to expand, than one that is maxed out.

3 - Dealer Experience. The DH and M2 are special cars, but when you walk into a ford dealership they need to treat you as a mass market customer. Better chance of a somewhat more personal treatment at a BMW dealer.

4 - Usability. I will on occasion have my kids in the back. Getting in/out of an M2 is tough, but once seated it is comfortable except for head room for those above 5'10" or so. On the Mustang your head literally presses against the rear glass.

5 - Shorter, slightly narrower, better visibility car. This makes a huge difference in the pleasure of driving on the street, back roads. The hood sight lines are much better in the BMW. The M2 does feel a class smaller in size to the Mustang/Camaro, even though the dimensions are similar.

6 - Interior quality.

Some things are a wash. Performance on track should be similar.

Some things are better in the Mustang. Much more tire. Brakes that are much easier to change pads if you track. Less complexity - no need to "code" to change batteries of put in service mode to change pads. Cost of parts is lower. Ford dealers are much more numerous, etc. The lower horizontal oil cooler on the M2 is a nightmare if you ever have an off on track.

Overall, I think the M2 is such a nice package and entry into M, that it is hard to pass. I feel that the next steps up in the line up (M4, M8) are so close in performance and interior space as to make the M2 a no-brianer.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by baron95

I currently have a Camaro SS1LE. I briefly considered a C8, the Mustang Dark Horse, and an G80/G82 as the replacement, before settling on the M2.

It is funny how the new Mustang DH (and other variants in premium trim) have nearly the exact same screen layout as the iDrive 8+. Ford enables *A LOT* more customization of the screens.

Here is why I chose the M2 in rough order of importance:

1 - M2 is the least expensive M-car. It is great and properly priced. The Mustang DH will be the most expensive car in Ford's line up (yes, they have more expensive trucks, and SUVs, but not cars or performance cars at this time).

It is always better to buy a small house in an expensive neighborhood, than the biggest/most expensive house in a bad neighborhood.

2 - M2 has a monster engine, held back by a weak tune to preserve hierarchy. Mustang DH, has a good engine, but it is tuned to the max. If I ever want more power, I know I can buy a $700 Racechip or Carbahn or JB4 and get an easy 20% bump.

Again, better to buy a house that is easier/cheaper to expand, than one that is maxed out.

3 - Dealer Experience. The DH and M2 are special cars, but when you walk into a ford dealership they need to treat you as a mass market customer. Better chance of a somewhat more personal treatment at a BMW dealer.

4 - Usability. I will on occasion have my kids in the back. Getting in/out of an M2 is tough, but once seated it is comfortable except for head room for those above 5'10" or so. On the Mustang your head literally presses against the rear glass.

5 - Shorter, slightly narrower, better visibility car. This makes a huge difference in the pleasure of driving on the street, back roads. The hood sight lines are much better in the BMW. The M2 does feel a class smaller in size to the Mustang/Camaro, even though the dimensions are similar.

6 - Interior quality.

Some things are a wash. Performance on track should be similar.

Some things are better in the Mustang. Much more tire. Brakes that are much easier to change pads if you track. Less complexity - no need to "code" to change batteries of put in service mode to change pads. Cost of parts is lower. Ford dealers are much more numerous, etc. The lower horizontal oil cooler on the M2 is a nightmare if you ever have an off on track.

Overall, I think the M2 is such a nice package and entry into M, that it is hard to pass. I feel that the next steps up in the line up (M4, M8) are so close in performance and interior space as to make the M2 a no-brianer.

I would add that I would rather have an M car than a regular mustang with a tune. M2 is kind of like owning a Porsche GTS product or a Mercedes AMG. I don't think the DH is even a Ford Racing product.

[ZPD]

It will be interesting to see how he Dark Horse S performs when it is released. I suspect that will be an expensive model.
I just sold my supercharged GT. I tracked it a lot but adding the supercharger was a big mistake. It just generated too much heat and added a lot of extra weight to the front end. Those 6 piston brakes were very impressive. With a set of good track pads I could brake a lot later and harder in the turns.