[Sedan_Clan]

Finally......somebody not romanticizing old cars.

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by Piyush

If BMW m division brings the hydraulic steering from E90 era I would buy the M2 in a heart beat. They could keep the EPS for non M models.

When M did that with the F10 M5 it still didn't have good steering feel. I have a feeling there is some corporate or cultural factor that constrains steering tuning.

That said, the new M2 has much better steering feel and weighting than my F30 340i and is one of the big surprises of the new M2 for me. It isn't a highlight, but also isn't a detractor like it was in the F gen BMWs that I have driven.

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

I don’t hate the steering in my F36, but it was at the latter part with facelift so maybe bmw put some extra tweeking in there, but when I drive my Dad’s 2007 Z4 (or recall the drive of the E46 or e90) it was superior

My 340i is MUCH better than my wife's pre-LCI 328i wagon.

But the new M2 is a big improvement over my 340i as well - continued incremental improvement.

-Nick

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Piyush

If BMW m division brings the hydraulic steering from E90 era I would buy the M2 in a heart beat. They could keep the EPS for non M models.

Won't happen. I've actually warmed up on EPS after seeing how Porsche and Alfa engineered their steering. Older cars with hydraulic racks seem to steer quite slowly in comparison. The road feel and resistance is there, but the immediacy of response and accuracy isn't on par with the best EPS.

Idk what it is with BMW that even their M cars lack the tactile feedback that other brands have. But I have driven the X4M and thought the steering was good enough...you get used to it. I'm sure I'd enjoy the new M2 plenty

[M2siast]

The G87 has better feel than the 2022 Macan GTS…

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by Piyush

Lotus still doing Hydraulic with Emira then what's stopping BMW to keep hydraulic with M cars at least which are driver's focussed ones and also when they know their EPS is not up to mark.

Lots of things.

Lotus is a very small volume maker while BMW shares hardware across many different models. Plus, EPS is tied into things like their driver's assistance systems, iDrive, and their broader electromechanical hardware and software that is the result of substantial R&D and capital. A large maker like that is not going to source a hydraulic steering system for a small number of cars that then requires redevelopment of all these other subsystems.

Plus, when they tried it with the F10 M5 people still didn't like the steering - why keep doing something expensive that isn't working?

-Nick

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by npirnia

Lots of things.

Lotus is a very small volume maker while BMW shares hardware across many different models. Plus, EPS is tied into things like their driver's assistance systems, iDrive, and their broader electromechanical hardware and software that is the result of substantial R&D and capital. A large maker like that is not going to source a hydraulic steering system for a small number of cars that then requires redevelopment of all these other subsystems.

Plus, when they tried it with the F10 M5 people still didn't like the steering - why keep doing something expensive that isn't working?

-Nick

All of this and more, BMWs are luxury cars, a Lotus is not. And BMW usually foots the maintenance bill, HPS increases costs and complexity.
Tech features would not exist as well, such as self parking, reverse assist, steering “modes” etc.

[2one3E90]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Same. I had 4 of them. 323ci, 330ic manual, 330ic auto, and M3 manual. Absolutely brilliant cars. In a Z4 at the moment, which is lighter than the modern M cars but not as special. If they don’t offer a manual, I might pop over to the M2.

what was your job when you had all those 4 e46?

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by Piyush

Lotus still doing Hydraulic with Emira then what's stopping BMW to keep hydraulic with M cars at least which are driver's focussed ones and also when they know their EPS is not up to mark.

It has been dead for several years. Manufactures rarely if ever revert to something they have previously used and put out to pasture. Plus CAFE owns manufactures.

[Briskstan]

When giving feedback on the G87, you can tell he was having to reassure himself more with his statements than with the E46.

E46 all day.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by 2one3E90

what was your job when you had all those 4 e46?

This was over a 7 year period of time 2000-2007. The 330 was totaled which resulted in the M3. The second convertible was used. Was putting 25k miles per year on them. Job is completely irrelevant.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

This was over a 7 year period of time 2000-2007. The 330 was totaled which resulted in fhe M3. The second convertible was used. Was putting 25k miles per year on them. Job is completely irrelevant.

Not if you were a pimp…

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Not if you were a pimp…

Pimps drive 3 series bimmers?

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Pimps drive 3 series bimmers?

You tell me

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

M2 lacks hydraulic steering and a naturally aspired engine. For these reasons, the E46 M3 is better. Sorry.

Well at least the M2 won't eat its bearings.

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by Piyush

Lotus still doing Hydraulic with Emira then what's stopping BMW to keep hydraulic with M cars at least which are driver's focussed ones and also when they know their EPS is not up to mark.

I believe it was Jason Cammisa on one of the Carmudgeon podcasts where he said that ZF (and likely other tier 1 suppliers as well, if there are any) refuses to build any more hydrolic power steering racks for safety (fire hazard in case of accident?) reasons. I never heard that reason repeated elsewhere, but Jason in general is pretty trustworthy with his remarks (unless I misunderstood him/misremember).

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Piyush

Lotus still doing Hydraulic with Emira then what's stopping BMW to keep hydraulic with M cars at least which are driver's focussed ones and also when they know their EPS is not up to mark.

One major reason - EU2019/2144 - basically mandatory lane keeping assist from mid-2024 on all cars sold in the EU, pretty difficult to implement with a conventional hydraulic assist system.

Lotus will not have a conventional hydraulic assist system on the I4 AMG engined Emira compared with the conventional hydraulic assist on the V6 model, it will be a variable electrically driven (and electronically controlled) hydraulic pump. Likely the I4 will be the only model sold in the EU from next year.

I can’t see any mainstream manufacturer with an eye to competitive pricing using different steering assist systems in the EU vs other markets, so hydraulic assistance systems are pretty well dead on all mainstream cars. Not having BMW use common parts across the model range for all markets is against their converged platform strategy.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by M2siast

The G87 has better feel than the 2022 Macan GTS…

Yes, I can relate to that with the fact our 2021 Macan S steering is nothing special. Somewhat isolated and “good for an SUV” is the best description.

[Tallest]

I actually prefer turbo engines to NA. They to me seem to have better fuel economy and good longevity. Not a popular opinion but I think the NA obsession perhaps is warranted on these large V10s or V8s, but here I think we are splitting hairs and 6cyl is great in either form.

As for hydraulic power steering, not gonna argue at all. in terms of feel it is nicer.

But ask yourself - if you have these cars stare at you, but are identical underneath, in terms of specs and so on? Which would you take? one that looks like E46 or G87?

The time for G87 design is not come yet. In 20 years it will be super liked I bet, but today it is bit hard to stomach as E46 is still a recent memory reference point and one can still see quite a few of E46s around.

[T_U_D]

For those unaware, the first BMW to use EPS was the E85 Z4, MY03. Obviously EPS at BMW has been around for quite some time, 20 years in fact, providing them with plenty of time to perfect it. Clearly that has not been the case unlike at Porsche whom did not switch to EPS until 2013/2014.

[Montaver]

The last great M division engine is the S65. Regular models have benefitted from turbo charging though, the B58 in particular is up there with BMW’s best work.

[Damage Inc]

Originally Posted by Piyush

If BMW m division brings the hydraulic steering from E90 era I would buy the M2 in a heart beat. They could keep the EPS for non M models.

That was the peak era of M. When an M car had a different motor the the normal cars. M3 V8 and M5/6 V10 were only in an M car. Not a base motor with a tune for power.

[Teutonic]

Being taken into consideration even today proves that the overall package of the M3 was and is complete in every aspect. Beautiful, nimble, and powerful.
The M2 is the natural evolution of a car today. a technically nice machine that, unfortunately, could not benefit from a team of designers that were able to contribute to that package and offer a beautiful car. It will fall under the ugly car niche of the BMW lineup that will be soon forgotten.

Between the two, I will hands down take the M3. Anytime.