[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by Dinosoar

I am sure you're driving above the speed limit in a MT car too, no? Or you're saying, you have fun at all speeds?

Yes, I am having fun at all speeds. Every drive is an event.

It is hard to "fight" the need for speed but considering the impressive deployment of speed traps in my area, I have been well disciplined to use my cruise control (cc) almost all the time (MT has no adaptive cc when I follow traffic I cannot).

I set to the exact speed limit in city limit (+4 winter setup and +3 summer setup to compensate optimistic public readers) and a bit more over in county zone (no speed camera) (+15 winter and +14 summer).

I get the fun w/ the MT getting there even when driving "slow" and ensuring I am in the correct gear w/ proper rev-matching downshifts and double clutch when skipping gears. I typically don't rush my shifts and enjoy every single shifts.

I currently get my "thrill" using my sim racing setup. Not quite like the real thing but fun enough for the price and safety.

[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by Dinosoar

So, what do you MT guys do in traffic, just suck it up?

I am lucky w/ my commute. No traffic and nice country roads through a mix of farm land and wealthy bigger lots residential zone. No stop-and-go freeway parking lots.

[JamnF87]

Originally Posted by BRAKE!

I used to be a strictly manual guy - if you were buying a sports car and there was a manual option, I'd think you were crazy if you got the auto/dual clutch instead.

But, since I've been driving on the track, I come to appreciate the auto so much more. I genuinely enjoy shifting with the paddles and like you said - the auto transmission helps you focus your mind where it should be out on the track - ahead at the next corner, focusing on corner entry, exit, trail braking, etc. I feel that in this environment, having a manual is not an extra level of engagement, it's a nuisance. For that reason, if I was getting a car to be used on the track for my fun experiences, I would get an auto. Ex. if I got a GT3 or GT4, I would get the PDK.

However, for this car, I'm buying a manual. It will be my afterwork/weekend toy used for back roads, small trips, cruises, CCA meet ups. In the environment I'll be driving it in, having a manual would be way more engaging. I'm not looking at hitting corner apex, rather, I'll just be shifting at WOT when getting on the on/off ramps, small drifts when leaving a 4 way stop, and listening to the exhaust under the overpass, etc. It's way more fun to drive manual here because you can really control your car's behavior with all of your limbs vs clicking the paddles twice with your finger.

Very good point about track use and the automatic transmission. I feel the same way about my Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Since I use it off road I prefer the automatic transmission so I can pay attention and not hit trees. I’m a manual guy through and through but for Offroading it’s hard to beat an automatic these days!

[zero21]

The thing about manual vs auto on track for me is; what's the extra three seconds going to get you? A trophy? It's like running a 4hr marathon and then spending 50% more time training to get to 3:30. It just doesn't make sense to invest that kind of effort IMO. Better to keep the manual and enjoy the experience since you won't get anything for your heroism anyway.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by zero21

The thing about manual vs auto on track for me is; what's the extra three seconds going to get you? A trophy? It's like running a 4hr marathon and then spending 50% more time training to get to 3:30. It just doesn't make sense to invest that kind of effort IMO. Better to keep the manual and enjoy the experience since you won't get anything for your heroism anyway.

If drag racing, AT is a must.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

If drag racing, AT is a must.

Unless you're getting a prize for your effort, I disagree.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by zero21

Unless you're getting a prize for your effort, I disagree.

Well, whether a prize is handed out or not, you would have to win to get a prize.

While you are more than entitled to your opinion, you wont win many races drag racing with a manual. There is a reason dragstrips are filled with mainly AT cars.

[zero21]

If you're not picking up what I'm putting down it's no biggie - the journey is more fun than than arriving at the destination. There is no "win". All you did was get from A to B .5sec slower. Who cares haha.

This is coming from someone who watches racing almost every day of his life. I just believe you have to have screws loose to care that much.

[BRAKE!]

Originally Posted by zero21

The thing about manual vs auto on track for me is; what's the extra three seconds going to get you? A trophy? It's like running a 4hr marathon and then spending 50% more time training to get to 3:30. It just doesn't make sense to invest that kind of effort IMO. Better to keep the manual and enjoy the experience since you won't get anything for your heroism anyway.

I would say it’s less about lap times or trophies and more about having focus in the right place. When you’re going the speeds you do on the track, the last thing you want to be worried about is rev matching, timing your shifts based on the speed of the corner coming up, thinking about what gear to be in, etc. The fun on the track is on how effective you can get around it, not on how effective you can manipulate the transmission. The point of going out on the track is to “drive the track” but with the manual, sometimes it feels like you’re “driving the transmission.”

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by zero21

If you're not picking up what I'm putting down it's no biggie - the journey is more fun than than arriving at the destination. There is no "win". All you did was get from A to B .5sec slower. Who cares haha.

This is coming from someone who watches racing almost every day of his life. I just believe you have to have screws loose to care that much.

This is coming from someone who raced for years at Gainesville Raceway. There is definitely a win, and with drag racing the point is getting from point A to point B first (without red lighting, of course).

[sl0m0]

Originally Posted by zero21

The thing about manual vs auto on track for me is; what's the extra three seconds going to get you? A trophy? It's like running a 4hr marathon and then spending 50% more time training to get to 3:30. It just doesn't make sense to invest that kind of effort IMO. Better to keep the manual and enjoy the experience since you won't get anything for your heroism anyway.

This is how I feel. These cars are so dang fast that in an AT to enjoy it you have to drive extremely fast, with a m/t it's solely for fun and I'm willing to be slower(but feel faster). My m/t 72 super beetle is actually more fun than my x3 m40i, because it is engaging. Even if I were to track my car, it would solely be for the fun of doing so, and buying my car with a manual transmission I know I will have slightly slower times.... But 100% more fun.

If someone doesn't enjoy the "work" of going through the gears than the simple argument of "it's faster and more efficient" is very effective. I will admit all day that the m2 is slower than a Tesla plaid s or what ever it's called, but for ME it's more FUN.

[sl0m0]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Well, whether a prize is handed out or not, you would have to win to get a prize.

While you are more than entitled to your opinion, you wont win many races drag racing with a manual. There is a reason dragstrips are filled with mainly AT cars.

Unless the prize is the cost of the a/t car than it's not worth it. The prize of the fun is what I would aiming for.

[sl0m0]

Originally Posted by BRAKE!

I would say it’s less about lap times or trophies and more about having focus in the right place. When you’re going the speeds you do on the track, the last thing you want to be worried about is rev matching, timing your shifts based on the speed of the corner coming up, thinking about what gear to be in, etc. The fun on the track is on how effective you can get around it, not on how effective you can manipulate the transmission. The point of going out on the track is to “drive the track” but with the manual, sometimes it feels like you’re “driving the transmission.”

The challenge that would be most rewarding to accomplish would be mastering "driving the track" at the same time as "driving the transmission" and I'd personally want to be able to master both.

[Dinosoar]

I think, before the thread wilts and dies, that from all the comments here that choosing an AT or MT is almost like choosing a favorite color. No one can really make the argument that Red is better than Blue; that debate is crazy (especially cuz Blue is far better!). I think the same here, some guys like rowing gears, others like not to and focus on other dynamic aspects of driving on the track or street. There's no argument, in this perspective, against either...just like a color choice.

Though, it is nothing like the color argument when we talk dynamics and speed...but in the end, that is still part of the transmission choice.

I will say, unequivocally, that choosing AT over an MT car does NOT pull one's enthusiast credentials. So tired of hearing that "For a real driver enthusiast, a manual transmission is available" by every car journalist. I keep pointing to the vast number of race series that don't use MTs any more...and I do consider racers enthusiasts.

A good discussion!

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by Dinosoar

I will say, unequivocally, that choosing AT over an MT car does NOT pull one's enthusiast credentials. So tired of hearing that "For a real driver enthusiast, a manual transmission is available" by every car journalist. I keep pointing to the vast number of race series that don't use MTs any more...and I do consider racers enthusiasts.

A good discussion!

+1 -- Utter truth lol. The whining of the press is absurd. Shut up. The makers DO NOT OWE anyone a MANUAL. So drive what you have and enjoy it. A 'gearbox' is not = to enthusiast EVER! Simple choice nothing more.

Journalists never enter MY decision matrix on what to buy or equip a car I am buying. They can go funk right off. Most NEVER ever own anything they test to begin with. A 1/2 day with one car does NOT MAKE one an EXPERT.

Many so called 'expert' YouTube paid shills have no real experience other than..........well they drove a car. The motoring press are not at all much better qualified either.

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by DSTR

+1 -- Utter truth lol. The whining of the press is absurd. Shut up. The makers DO NOT OWE anyone a MANUAL. So drive what you have and enjoy it. A 'gearbox' is not = to enthusiast EVER! Simple choice nothing more.

Journalists never enter MY decision matrix on what to buy or equip a car I am buying. They can go funk right off. Most NEVER ever own anything they test to begin with. A 1/2 day with one car does NOT MAKE one an EXPERT.

Many so called 'expert' YouTube paid shills have no real experience other than..........well they drove a car. The motoring press are not at all much better qualified either.

So you're saying car enthusiasts who love manuals can't be disappointed by the removal of them from many cars that used to offer them? The "whining of the press" represents many enthusiasts who are disappointed about the current direction away from stick shifts, no shade against those who are happy with an auto but it's a valid concern.

[Dinosoar]

I agree with both points...journalists over stating it (some without any foundation), and MT guys lament the loss of MTs.

Everyone knows MTs are going away. Everyone knows why. If I were an MT guy, I'd be upset; but I'm not, I just understand...

I cannot stand how heavy cars have gotten. I cannot stand that every sports car has to have a freaking moonroof and power heated seats (and more). Fact is, that's happening because most love moonroofs and a warm ass in the winter-time. I mean, how is that new M2 almost as heavy as an M4...whaaaat?

Cars are changing and definitely not for those of us who are particular about our cars. But I've relished in this fact. All four-wheeled vehicles experience the same physics. Hell, a school bus and a 911 will have the same physical forces acting on them and driving them near the limit is pretty much the same challenge...one's just faster. I can have as much fun in an M240, Camry, van, or my track car. So, that new pig of an M2 will be one fun car to drive hard. Learning THAT specific car will be fun and it all helps me get over that it isn't exactly what I want it to be (which is about a quarter-ton lighter!).

That song by Crosby, Stills, Nash..."Love The One You're With" always rings true for me. I don't know if this'll work for the MT guys in an AT car, but it works for me. Pick what's best for me, it won't be perfect, but I'll squeeze all the fun out of it anyway.

[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by Dinosoar

I think, before the thread wilts and dies, that from all the comments here that choosing an AT or MT is almost like choosing a favorite color. No one can really make the argument that Red is better than Blue; that debate is crazy (especially cuz Blue is far better!). I think the same here, some guys like rowing gears, others like not to and focus on other dynamic aspects of driving on the track or street. There's no argument, in this perspective, against either...just like a color choice.

Though, it is nothing like the color argument when we talk dynamics and speed...but in the end, that is still part of the transmission choice.

I will say, unequivocally, that choosing AT over an MT car does NOT pull one's enthusiast credentials. So tired of hearing that "For a real driver enthusiast, a manual transmission is available" by every car journalist. I keep pointing to the vast number of race series that don't use MTs any more...and I do consider racers enthusiasts.

A good discussion!

I never discredited AT folks even when AT had less performance (not saying you accused me of doing so). One never knows someone's reasons when they choose AT over MT and it is not anyone's business other than the purchaser. These purchases are luxury we make to make us happy. If BMW requires a specific number in sales to justify R&Ding a platform and reaching that number is dependent on AT option to have a bigger clientele, so be it. As I said before, I am happy we both have the option we want. If the this car would only be available in AT, I would not buy it period. Enjoy your car.

Originally Posted by Roosterdentures

So you're saying car enthusiasts who love manuals can't be disappointed by the removal of them from many cars that used to offer them? The "whining of the press" represents many enthusiasts who are disappointed about the current direction away from stick shifts, no shade against those who are happy with an auto but it's a valid concern.

Agreed that the disappearance of the MT is disappointing. That is why I am stretching my finances to get this car. It is most likely the last MT M car ever. I miss my E46M3 6MT and plan to keep my E90 335i 6MT for as long as possible as my daily. I couldn't replace it for an equivalent today. The G87 M2 will be in my garage for the rest of my driving life.

If that car would be available only with a MT, they might not sell enough to justifying making it in the first place.

[GregW / Oregon]

I've always had MTs for my DD/fun cars, autos for my SUVs. My last 3 M3/4 coupes are manuals, as will be this one. I'll be 75 when I get it but as long as both legs keep working...!

https://tmgps.org/

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by Dinosoar

...
I cannot stand how heavy cars have gotten. I cannot stand that every sports car has to have a freaking moonroof and power heated seats (and more). Fact is, that's happening because most love moonroofs and a warm ass in the winter-time. I mean, how is that new M2 almost as heavy as an M4...whaaaat?
...

Not arguing that lighter would be better...

But where the hell did this idea come from that the m2 is lighter than the m4?

F87 m2 was 1495kg (3296lbs) vs the F82 M4 was 1497kg (3300lbs), a whole 2kg (4lbs) lighter lol.

Meanwhile for the comps:

F87 m2c was 1550kg (3417lbs) and the F82 m4c was 1515kg (3340lbs), so the m2 was actually 35kg (77lbs) heavier!

(All weight figures from the direct press releases on press.bmwgroup.com)

[M_Power Rob]

Curb weight

2023 M2 3814 to 3867, depending on transmission

2023 M4 RWD 3830
2023 M4 Comp RWD 3880
2023 M4 Comp xDrive 3979

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Curb weight

2023 M2 3814 to 3867, depending on transmission

2023 M4 RWD 3830
2023 M4 Comp xDrive 3979

Basically the m2 and the m4 are identical going off the global BMW press releases, bear in mind the m4 is standard with forged wheels and a carbon roof, so there is some low hanging fruit to get the weight lower on the m2.

2023 M2 Weight
Manual: 1700kg
Auto: 1725kg

2021 M4 Weight
Manual: 1700kg

2021 M4 Comp Weight
Auto: 1725kg
Auto AWD: 1775kg

M3/M4 Specs

M2 Specs