[335i E92]

Evening All

still having problems, not appy!!

As some of you know I am running a DMS map and over the last 6 months have had new actuators, coils, injectors & plugs.

A few weeks ago the car was back to it's old tricks down on power and showing no codes. Upon advise from DMS I changed the boost control valves. These are the 2 valves attached to the left hand side of the engine block that I belive control the wastegates. I had darren woods change them, as I waited and it was a quick 10 min install.

First couple of days the car ran well and the power retuned. However after a couple of days the car started to pulse or oscillate on full throtle. I approached DMS and they installed an updated map which stopped the pulsing but caused the car to surge.

I've had the map taken off and the result is I'm now left with an identical surge, jerky acceleration in low gears but less power. I'm waiting for Rob to call me to explain in full what he adjusted in the map to stop the pulsing as it's now left me with a jerky surgy mess.

I'm suspecting that DMS have fully closed the wastegates to stop the pulsing but as a result have caused the surging. I'll report back when I've spoken to rob.

Any suggestions in the mean time??

[335i E92]

Hopefully I’ll get to speak to Rob today to find out what he changed in the revised map. As I said I’m suspecting that it was an adjustment to the wastegates.

In my eyes there are 2 possible reasons that my car is still surging even with the standard map.


Either the recent alteration that Rob made in the DMS software has stayed with the car even with the map removed. I suspect this because they haven’t put my original map back on the car as apparently this would now be detectable to main dealers, because of this they have had to put a standard version of their own on the car

The other possible reason for the surging might be because I’m running Forge DV’s and still have the Yellow spring installed which is the middle strength one designed for a remapped car, obviously mine is now standard. Could this cause surging?

I will hopefully get to speak to Rob today and will feedback as soon as I speak to him. I would also like to make clear that DMS have gone way beyond the call of duty with their back up support for me. My problems with the map are more to do with my car than their map.

If anyone has an opinion on my Forge DV theory I’d be interested to hear it.

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

Originally Posted by 335i E92

If anyone has an opinion on my Forge DV theory I’d be interested to hear it.

Might help...

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...highlight=tial

Its one area you need to rule out. Return to stock and see if the issue resolves itself. BMS proved the stock DV's could hold high boost on modded cars.

[335i E92]

Originally Posted by neil@JuicedUpTuning

Might help...

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...highlight=tial

Hi Niel

Thank you for the info, judging by the below statement which I found in the link it looks like some of the surging could be caused by the spring being too stiff as suspected.


“Compressor surge is not good but there is no way around it with a spring type BOV. You are either going to have it too loose and have poor response/waste pressure or too tight and have surge at low throttle openings/low boost.”

I’ll put the weaker spring in and see if it makes a difference.

Thanks again for the heads up!! Does anyone else agree with this??

[m1bjr]

Yes, simple mechanics.

I did suggest that I wasnt convinced the BOVs would fix your issues, and it seems to be the case.

I'll repeat my initial thought though, that you should just datalog the boost and target etc to see whats going on.
You're just throwing money down a hole. It may be a simple boost leak thats contantly messing about, or a wastegate / gate actuator (mechanical) fault.

Good luck, these things are a flipping test of patience for sure

[335i E92]

Originally Posted by m1bjr

Yes, simple mechanics.

I did suggest that I wasnt convinced the BOVs would fix your issues, and it seems to be the case.

I'll repeat my initial thought though, that you should just datalog the boost and target etc to see whats going on.
You're just throwing money down a hole. It may be a simple boost leak thats contantly messing about, or a wastegate / gate actuator (mechanical) fault.

Good luck, these things are a flipping test of patience for sure

Hi

Believe me my patience is warring thin, however i bloody love this car like no other when its running right so i'm sticking with it!!

I’m totally agree with your comment!!

However I have no way of simply dataloging the boost and target achievements. How would I be able to monitor or test for this?

Will a dyno show this information?

[m1bjr]

No, your cheapest solution is to find someone with a Bavarian Technic cable, or similar.
And pick the parameters you wish to monitor from a laptop in the car.

GL
Steve

[DavS1]

Some dynos who can monitor boost pressure will be able too.

dont buy any more parts etc until you know the cause of the problem! as, as said above you'll be throwing money away!

A GOOD rolling road operator could do some diagnostic work using a dyno and probably find the cause of your problem, It's a pitty your not near Glasgow as I work at a dyno/tuning place and this is the type of thing we fualt find/diagnose every day...without using computers


When you reffer to BOV's....are you meaning the recirc dump valve or an actual BOV...( for boost pressure control) as Dump valve wont have anything to do with it surging, but if it is surging then it sounds like the wastegates are closed and its producing more air than it can swallow stalling the turbocharger. If the BOV's DO control boost pressure on this model then if the springs are too firm and boost pressure can't be vented then yes this sounds like your problem, although I dont think even with an upgraded map it can change the fact the turbo's are producing more air than the engine can swallow...that's a mechanical issue?

[335i E92]

Thanks once again for the input guys, muchos appreciated!!

I don't know anyone with a BT cable so I'm gonna take it to CPR in Warrington who are apparently tuners for Evolve and can diagonse via the dyno.

I didn't mention the bov I think it was Steve, I am refering to the Forge diverter valves that I have had fitted. You can swap the springs around to match with different boost levels and I have now removed the remap but still have middle strenth spring in the valves which I suspect is too stiff for standard boost.

As I mentioned in my earlier post DMS havnt put my original map back on the car as they have put thier own version on for a reason I don't understand. I rekon that
there is still somthing in the software that is causing me problems.

So the plan is I've booked the car in to darren woods next thurs to have BMWs latest
standard software installed to get the car completley back to stock. They are also swapping he springs in the diverter valves to the softest spring meant for standard boost.

Once this is done I'm gonna see how it responds and if the care still problems then it's off to the dyno for some diagnostics.

You all agree this is best the way forward??

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

Originally Posted by m1bjr

No, your cheapest solution is to find someone with a Bavarian Technic cable, or similar.
And pick the parameters you wish to monitor from a laptop in the car.

GL
Steve

Yeah BT Tool is effectively a BMW techs GT1 Diagnostic unit. Posting a log would give us information in helping you work out your problem.

before investing in a BT Tool. Rule out the Forge DV's by returning to stock.

If you want the BT Tool then PM me for a price.

here a post of what the BT Tool can do...notice it shows wastegate PWM

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...06&postcount=9

[jke11y]

DavS1, where do you work? Also, still wondering where that abandoned Boxster was in town

[335i E92]

I'm not looking to buy a BT tool as even if I had one I'm not technically minded enough to understand the readings.

Will darren wood my local Indy BMW specialist who have all the diagnostic kit that BMW have be able to see all the information that the BT cable has?

I'm not going to take the Forge DV's off as I no longer have the oe dv's and want to try the softer springs and get completley back to stock before I start buying anymore hardware.

As I said once I've done this and then seen how the car then behaves if it's still not right is getting dyno'd to try to see what's what. From there I will change whatever the diagnostics point to.

[m1bjr]

When I said BOVs I should have made clear I was referring to your new Forge diverter valves.
These shouldnt be the cause of surging (turbos part stalling).
DavS1 knows his stuff, and I would go with his recommendation to find a tuning expert above using the BMW techs.
Remember, even the best dealer techs often are performing mostly mundane service work, and the majority won't be working with petrol turbos.
The N54 is a fairly rare engine in most BMW workshops I suspect.

The DMS map issue bothers me....
I would have expected them to be able to roll back the software.
You are only reprogramming certain 'blocks' of code, so it seems they could not lift the BMW original code and safely stow it for reloading in event of problems?
Your only option there is to fall back to a BMW dealer who can reflash the genuine BMW software and I suspect that wont be cheap.

Wastegates and actuators seem to give problems on these engines.
No doubt the close proximity of another turbo and the tight space means heat is damaging too.
Have you posted over on N54tech.com?
There are a couple of good Engineers amongst the chip-tuner majority there

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

Originally Posted by 335i E92

I'm not looking to buy a BT tool as even if I had one I'm not technically minded enough to understand the readings.

Will darren wood my local Indy BMW specialist who have all the diagnostic kit that BMW have be able to see all the information that the BT cable has?

No worries. Yeah, the BMW indy will use the GT1 tool or a BT. Either way they will have access to the same info.

For what its worth the BT Tool is easy to use. Whilst you might not understand the output, you can post the data on e90 and N54 so people who do know can help.

Good Luck!

[DavS1]

Originally Posted by 335i E92

I didn't mention the bov I think it was Steve, I am refering to the Forge diverter valves that I have had fitted. You can swap the springs around to match with different boost levels and I have now removed the remap but still have middle strenth spring in the valves which I suspect is too stiff for standard boost.

Sorry my mistake, however the diverter valves wont be causing any problem, they simply dump boost when you close the throtle for noise supression - no other reason. The uprated springs are just for holding the valves closed now your running more boost, however the hose on the top of the valve is also pressurising the valve from the other side to hold it closed.

To me it sounds like an ECU software or boost control issue.
I'd want the standard map back on it to rule that out in your position as i'd imagine that's free to do?
Could be a few problems unfortunately, if the std map doesnt sort it, next port of call for me would be a good dyno operator who isn't going to just run an OBD scan, dyno it and say "yea it's got low power or X Y Z" but actually look at thing closely like boost pressure, boost curve, AFR..but who, I dont know...all I know is someone who knows how to use a dyno as a diagnostic tool rather than just a power measurement device for bragging is what i'd be looking for!

jke11y I work at a company called AVA behind Glasgow airport. The Porsche isn't far from Byers road - West end.

m1bjr - I agree & thanks, but dont let the 'highly trained' BMW tech's hear you say that!!

[335i E92]

Thanks Steve, Niel & davs1

Steve, my car is booked to go into my local Indy BMW dealer who know my car very well and are well up on all the problems I've had. They themselves are putting BMW's latest version of the standard software back on the car and swapping the correct stock springs in the dv's

From there I am taking Davs1 advise and taking it to a high performance turbo specialist who also install for Evolve and see alot of 335i's for them to dyno and diagnose.

It's booked in next Thursday so I'll keep you posted through out it's road back to health, I'm determined to get her back to her best if it kills me.

So do we all agree I'm taking the best 1st steps to getting a solution??

By the way Steve my car had new actuators fitted by BMW 5 months ago so I
would hope it's not that. I do think that this is some kind of restriction of flow
as the engine definatley feels like Its in head lock n can't breath properly or freely. Wastegates closed maybe as mentioned.


Who knows just yet, the truth is out there.

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

Originally Posted by m1bjr

I did suggest that I wasnt convinced the BOVs would fix your issues, and it seems to be the case.

Just out of interest...I noticed M1bjr's post about the DV's not fixing your problems. Is this because you had the problems prior to putting your Forge D's on?

[335i E92]

Originally Posted by neil@JuicedUpTuning

Just out of interest...I noticed M1bjr's post about the DV's not fixing your problems. Is this because you had the problems prior to putting your Forge D's on?

Yes...

To cut a long story short I removed the DMS remap a couple of months ogo as the car wasn't running right. It then had a shit load of new hardware 6 new Bosch coils, 6 new injectors a full set of plugs. This seems to put the car back to health so I had the DMS map put back on the car. Ran well for a couple of days and then the power dropped.

I replaced the Stock DV's for the forge ones thinking I had torn the oe dv's diaphragm. I though I had nailed it ad for some reason it felt like the power had returned saying that when the car was in having the new DVs fitted it also had the adaptations reset so this is what I might have felt

So after another couple of days the car is again down on power. I called DMS and they advised that I change the boost control valves. Anoyingly this brought the power back but only for a few days and the car the started to pulse under wot.

Then your basically up to my fisrt post in this thread as to what's happend from there.

Fair yo say I've had an fookin nightmare!!

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

Originally Posted by 335i E92

Yes...

To cut a long story short I removed the DMS remap a couple of months ogo as the car wasn't running right. It then had a shit load of new hardware 6 new Bosch coils, 6 new injectors a full set of plugs. This seems to put the car back to health so I had the DMS map put back on the car. Ran well for a couple of days and then the power dropped.

I replaced the Stock DV's for the forge ones thinking I had torn the oe dv's diaphragm. I though I had nailed it ad for some reason it felt like the power had returned saying that when the car was in having the new DVs fitted it also had the adaptations reset so this is what I might have felt

So after another couple of days the car is again down on power. I called DMS and they advised that I change the boost control valves. Anoyingly this brought the power back but only for a few days and the car the started to pulse under wot.

Then your basically up to my fisrt post in this thread as to what's happend from there.

Fair yo say I've had an fookin nightmare!!

Nightmare for sure! Did the car CEL at all?

also dont you have AR downpipes? I take it your map was setup with a downpipe fix. If you flash back to stock how are you going to stop potential emissions codes?

Whilst not the cause, the incorrect DV spring settings will show your DV theory does hold true if all else is working correctly...

"Blowoff valves are used to prevent compressor surge, a phenomenon that readily occurs when lifting off the throttle of an unvented, turbocharged engine. When the throttle plate on a turbocharged engine closes, the high pressure air in the intake system is trapped by the throttle and a pressure wave is forced back into the compressor. The compressor wheel slows rapidly and may even stall, and the driver will notice a fluttering air sound. The rapid slowing or stalling stresses the turbo and imparts severe turbo lag if the driver accelerates immediately after the surge event."

Will be good to hear your BMW Indy guys have sorted your problem.

[335i E92]

Originally Posted by neil@JuicedUpTuning

Nightmare for sure! Did the car CEL at all?

also dont you have AR downpipes? I take it your map was setup with a downpipe fix. If you flash back to stock how are you going to stop potential emissions codes?

Whilst not the cause, the incorrect DV spring settings will show your DV theory does hold true if all else is working correctly...

"Blowoff valves are used to prevent compressor surge, a phenomenon that readily occurs when lifting off the throttle of an unvented, turbocharged engine. When the throttle plate on a turbocharged engine closes, the high pressure air in the intake system is trapped by the throttle and a pressure wave is forced back into the compressor. The compressor wheel slows rapidly and may even stall, and the driver will notice a fluttering air sound. The rapid slowing or stalling stresses the turbo and imparts severe turbo lag if the driver accelerates immediately after the surge event."

Will be good to hear your BMW Indy guys have sorted your problem.

Hi Neil

I haven’t got the AR catless pipes on the car, i did however order them a few weeks ago when i thought the car was sorted. They should be arriving next week along with the catch can.

I'm gonna fit the catch can and get the car back to full health and fixed for good before i even start thinking about fitting the downpipes.

Role on next Thursday so i can get back to stock and start the process.

[DavS1]

Originally Posted by neil@JuicedUpTuning

"Blowoff valves are used to prevent compressor surge, a phenomenon that readily occurs when lifting off the throttle of an unvented, turbocharged engine. When the throttle plate on a turbocharged engine closes, the high pressure air in the intake system is trapped by the throttle and a pressure wave is forced back into the compressor. The compressor wheel slows rapidly and may even stall, and the driver will notice a fluttering air sound. The rapid slowing or stalling stresses the turbo and imparts severe turbo lag if the driver accelerates immediately after the surge event."

Not the same compressor surge i'm assuming he is feeling/having problems with.

Actual "compressor Surge" happens when accelerating with throtle open, Similar things happen though (turbo stalling), but under different circumstances.
This statement is describing compressor surge with throtle closed with no dump valve/stuck closed dump valve which I wouldn't class as a problem, just a noise which is the reason manufacturors fit dump valves in the first place.


325i E92, I should have asked earlier...I take it this compressor surge you describe is ON throtle, not a noise when you back off as described above?

[neil@JuicedUpTuning]

Originally Posted by DavS1

Not the same compressor surge i'm assuming he is feeling/having problems with.

Actual "compressor Surge" happens when accelerating with throtle open, Similar things happen though (turbo stalling), but under different circumstances.
This statement is describing compressor surge with throtle closed with no dump valve/stuck closed dump valve which I wouldn't class as a problem, just a noise which is the reason manufacturors fit dump valves in the first place.


325i E92, I should have asked earlier...I take it this compressor surge you describe is ON throtle, not a noise when you back off as described above?

With the problems happening prior to the Forge DVs I agree.

335i E92 is back on a stock map with the yellow spring. Posted for clarification when using the incorrect Forge DV spring.