[haaken675]

Hey everyone. Just curious why it doesn't seem like there are too many e9x track cars? Every other model seems to have plenty of builds. The e92 seems like a great platform for it. Modern suspension, last of the hydraulic power steering cars, n54/5 has plenty of power and there is more then enough development for cooling to keep temps down. What am i missing?

I am nearly complete with my e30 m52 turbo swap time attack build, and am considering getting some seat time with the e92 since i'm not going to be worrying about literally every nut and bolt. I look around periodically for anyone tracking something similar and it seems to only be m3's.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by haaken675

Hey everyone. Just curious why it doesn't seem like there are too many e9x track cars? Every other model seems to have plenty of builds. The e92 seems like a great platform for it. Modern suspension, last of the hydraulic power steering cars, n54/5 has plenty of power and there is more then enough development for cooling to keep temps down. What am i missing?

I am nearly complete with my e30 m52 turbo swap time attack build, and am considering getting some seat time with the e92 since i'm not going to be worrying about literally every nut and bolt. I look around periodically for anyone tracking something similar and it seems to only be m3's.

I think you are on the right track, pun intended lol. I recently tracked my e92 328i for the first time at a SCCA track night at Palm Beach International Raceway.

My car is not a track car build but it’s been built as a performance daily with a lot of mods you only see on track builds. I’m full Uniballs front and rear, m4 front spindles, -2.5/-2.0 Fr/Rr, camber Lost over 300lbs with weight reduction mods, extensive chassis bracing, and engine/power train mods with LSD.

So all that said I was running my daily driver set up on Falken FK510 street tires, oem BMW brake pads, etc. Just a Motul 600 fluid swap. I passed a e92m3 with 265 square track tires, tuned, and track pads. Passed a Cayman S, e46m3, Lotus Elise, Mustang GT, and even a Miata.

I believe there’s a lot of potential in the E92 chassis I was surprised... shocked really... at how well my car performed. I can’t speak for the turbo platforms but it’s also pretty clear the chassis and basic suspension geometry of the E92 platform is on point.

My buddy with the E92M3 (running same camber settings as me) commented that I was walking away from him in the corners and I was maintaining the gaps in the straights.



If you are willing to put some time and effort into the build I would totally encourage you to also consider a N52 powered car like a 128/328 with a manual, not just the turbo platforms. There’s a lot of potential and the lightweight parts from the M3 all swap directly to the 328i. As you know on the track light is right. My car is now under 3000lbs and has around 260whp and has proven very competent on the track.






Btw, my interior is not gutted so there is a lot of room to take maybe 50-100lbs off as a straight up track build...

[haaken675]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

I think you are on the right track, pun intended lol. I recently tracked my e92 328i for the first time at a SCCA track night at Palm Beach International Raceway.

My car is not a track car build but it’s been built as a performance daily with a lot of mods you only see on track builds. I’m full Uniballs front and rear, m4 front spindles, -2.5/-2.0 Fr/Rr, camber Lost over 300lbs with weight reduction mods, extensive chassis bracing, and engine/power train mods with LSD.

So all that said I was running my daily driver set up on Falken FK510 street tires, oem BMW brake pads, etc. Just a Motul 600 fluid swap. I passed a e92m3 with 265 square track tires, tuned, and track pads. Passed a Cayman S, e46m3, Lotus Elise, Mustang GT, and even a Miata.

I believe there’s a lot of potential in the E92 chassis I was surprised... shocked really... at how well my car performed. I can’t speak for the turbo platforms but it’s also pretty clear the chassis and basic suspension geometry of the E92 platform is on point.

My buddy with the E92M3 (running same camber settings as me) commented that I was walking away from him in the corners and I was maintaining the gaps in the straights.



If you are willing to put some time and effort into the build I would totally encourage you to also consider a N52 powered car like a 128/328 with a manual, not just the turbo platforms. There’s a lot of potential and the lightweight parts from the M3 all swap directly to the 328i. As you know on the track light is right. My car is now under 3000lbs and has around 260whp and has proven very competent on the track.






Btw, my interior is not gutted so there is a lot of room to take maybe 50-100lbs off as a straight up track build...

If my wife wouldn't literally kill me for bringing home yet another car or bike project, i would be looking into a 128 or 135i....Would be a great track build. If i wasn't so deep into my e30, i could be tempted to abandon it and switch to building the 33i completely. Not having fab up literally every part imaginable is so tempting along with the much more modern suspension....

[edycol]

I go to the track with my E90 328i xDrive. I have two child seats in the back. I drop off kids at daycare and go to the track at least once a month. People do not realize that as long as they have good brake fluid and pads, decent tires, nothing stops them from doing it. They think it is a multi-thousands dollars project.
My car has to be ski ready, so I cannot lower my car, but still, I can improve suspension, put M3 control arms to the back. I just finished the project of installing oil cooler from 335 as here altitude is brutal when it comes to cooling the engine. It is manual, so it is a hoot to drive it. Who cares I am not the fastest guy on the track. Actually, besides several car I pass, usually people pass me, but who cares?
Here, I actually see a lot of E90's. 335, 328, M3, they're all here at High Plains Raceway.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by haaken675

If my wife wouldn't literally kill me for bringing home yet another car or bike project, i would be looking into a 128 or 135i....Would be a great track build. If i wasn't so deep into my e30, i could be tempted to abandon it and switch to building the 33i completely. Not having fab up literally every part imaginable is so tempting along with the much more modern suspension....

Man, you did some serious weight shedding there.
Did you upgrade the brakes on your 328 or you left them where they were?
I am a bit hesitant to go 335 brakes bcs. increase in unsprung weight.

[Biginboca]

Originally Posted by edycol

Man, you did some serious weight shedding there.
Did you upgrade the brakes on your 328 or you left them where they were?
I am a bit hesitant to go 335 brakes bcs. increase in unsprung weight.

On the front I’m running f30 4 piston Brembo and the lightweight E90 335i ECS tuning rotors (348mm x 30mm x 19.8lbs). It’s an odd combo I ended up going with to work with M4 spindles and hubs.

The rears are stock for now.

Coded the sport brake option and everything works great it’s plenty for my car.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Biginboca

On the front I’m running f30 4 piston Brembo and the lightweight E90 335i ECS tuning rotors (348mm x 30mm x 19.8lbs). It’s an odd combo I ended up going with to work with M4 spindles and hubs.

The rears are stock for now.

Coded the sport brake option and everything works great it’s plenty for my car.

I am definitely going bigger brakes, probably 335 rotor and ads.
But, thinking still about E90 330i brakes as the front is smaller (330mm) and the rear are the same as 335i.
Will see. My issue is that I am at a high altitude and for every 1.000ft one loses 3% of power in NA engines.
I will go three-stage intake and chip, so that will mitigate heavier brakes.

[davidwarren]

Originally Posted by edycol

I am definitely going bigger brakes, probably 335 rotor and ads.
But, thinking still about E90 330i brakes as the front is smaller (330mm) and the rear are the same as 335i.
Will see. My issue is that I am at a high altitude and for every 1.000ft one loses 3% of power in NA engines.
I will go three-stage intake and chip, so that will mitigate heavier brakes.

I have both e90 335 front brakes and a full set of stoptech st-60/st-40 BBK with a slew of pads if you’re interested.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by davidwarren

I have both e90 335 front brakes and a full set of stoptech st-60/st-40 BBK with a slew of pads if you’re interested.

Not venturing yet onto that project. Currently working on suspension. Thanx.

[tsk94]

There's plenty of E9X M3 track cars nowadays. Non-M's, not so much.

N54's aren't great for serious track work, been there and done that with a N54 135i. Too many issues with overheating and it's very difficult to sort out so they make good power but don't overheat if you want to drive a 30 minute session. N52's are great, if you're willing to accept the car will be (relatively) slow, power wise. Upgraded radiator and maybe an oil cooler, depending on your ability level and how hard you drive, and it'll just keep going all day with no overheating issues like the N54's. The N52 cars are also quite a bit lighter then the N54 equivalent (128 vs 135 and 328 vs 335, etc.)

I totally agree though that the E9X/E8X era of cars is an excellent sweet spot. Still a decent sized car, relatively light, hydraulic steering and good, modern suspension geometry.

Why so many M3 but hardly any non-M's? Because up until recently, you could get a E9X M3 for pretty cheap and have a very capable track car with a few simple mods. You'd have to put A LOT of money in a 328 or even a 335 to get it as capable as the M3 with a good set of track tires, pads and a decent alignment. On the M3's, cooling isn't much of a problem. You can run way bigger tires. Stock brakes with race pads and fluid are good enough for 95% of people that will track them, and the list goes on.

Now that prices of the E9x M3's are getting silly, the non-M's start to be a serious consideration. I'd advise going N52 - less headaches, less maintenance and less overall issues to deal with.

[Vivek.]

I've tracked mine. It's great, but I agree that cooling becomes an issue on the N54. Definitely couldn't smash a 30 min session, typically I gotta take a quick cool down at the 10-12 minute mark, drive around the paddock for a minute or two, and hop back on. Note that this has never been due to any overheating warning or limp mode, just a precaution that I take when oil temp starts to get over 275. Good oil can hit 300F with no issues.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by tsk94

There's plenty of E9X M3 track cars nowadays. Non-M's, not so much.

N54's aren't great for serious track work, been there and done that with a N54 135i. Too many issues with overheating and it's very difficult to sort out so they make good power but don't overheat if you want to drive a 30 minute session. N52's are great, if you're willing to accept the car will be (relatively) slow, power wise. Upgraded radiator and maybe an oil cooler, depending on your ability level and how hard you drive, and it'll just keep going all day with no overheating issues like the N54's. The N52 cars are also quite a bit lighter then the N54 equivalent (128 vs 135 and 328 vs 335, etc.)

I totally agree though that the E9X/E8X era of cars is an excellent sweet spot. Still a decent sized car, relatively light, hydraulic steering and good, modern suspension geometry.

Why so many M3 but hardly any non-M's? Because up until recently, you could get a E9X M3 for pretty cheap and have a very capable track car with a few simple mods. You'd have to put A LOT of money in a 328 or even a 335 to get it as capable as the M3 with a good set of track tires, pads and a decent alignment. On the M3's, cooling isn't much of a problem. You can run way bigger tires. Stock brakes with race pads and fluid are good enough for 95% of people that will track them, and the list goes on.

Now that prices of the E9x M3's are getting silly, the non-M's start to be a serious consideration. I'd advise going N52 - less headaches, less maintenance and less overall issues to deal with.

I installed 335 oil cooler on my N52. I was running 50 minutes on track at 5,000ft altitude and that sucker won't go over 245f. The brakes are the one that started eventually to fade as I just spent too much time on track. And mind you, I didn't remove cowling and engine cover purposely. I wanted to see how effective OE cooler from 335 is on my N52. Altitude is much harder on engine than high ambient temperature alone.
Also, people should take into consideration that they can bump power on N52 fairly chep.
3-stage intake, euro intake box, ECU flash alone can give 270hp on crank. Headers etc. could bring 260-270whp.
RWD 328 can easily be upgraded with M3 control arms from TRW front and back. Bilstein B6 or B8 depending on springs, powerflex bushings, and one has a serious contender.
I am currently doing upgrades on my suspension, xDrive:
Rear M3 control arms
Rear subframe powerflex bushings
B6 dampers (do not want to lower car).

[edycol]

Originally Posted by Vivek.

I've tracked mine. It's great, but I agree that cooling becomes an issue on the N54. Definitely couldn't smash a 30 min session, typically I gotta take a quick cool down at the 10-12 minute mark, drive around the paddock for a minute or two, and hop back on. Note that this has never been due to any overheating warning or limp mode, just a precaution that I take when oil temp starts to get over 275. Good oil can hit 300F with no issues.

Do you have on yours oil cooler radiator or fluid/fluid heat exchanger?

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by edycol

I installed 335 oil cooler on my N52. I was running 50 minutes on track at 5,000ft altitude and that sucker won't go over 245f. The brakes are the one that started eventually to fade as I just spent too much time on track. And mind you, I didn't remove cowling and engine cover purposely. I wanted to see how effective OE cooler from 335 is on my N52. Altitude is much harder on engine than high ambient temperature alone.
Also, people should take into consideration that they can bump power on N52 fairly chep.
3-stage intake, euro intake box, ECU flash alone can give 270hp on crank. Headers etc. could bring 260-270whp.
RWD 328 can easily be upgraded with M3 control arms from TRW front and back. Bilstein B6 or B8 depending on springs, powerflex bushings, and one has a serious contender.
I am currently doing upgrades on my suspension, xDrive:
Rear M3 control arms
Rear subframe powerflex bushings
B6 dampers (do not want to lower car).

Doesn't take much to make the N52's not have overheating issues on track, which is definitely nice.

I'm also quite familiar with the N52 platform as I also have a 128i that I've tracked and will be tracking more and more in the future. 240-250whp is realistic, unfortunately 260+ and certainly 270 isn't achievable with the typical upgrades. 3 stage intake manifold, headers, MILV's and a proper tune will give ~240-250 depending on the car. The highest I believe I've seen was 255 with these mods. To get to 270 you'll need to upgrade cams, N54 manifold and rev higher. The loss in torque from a different cam and moving the powerband upwards isn't nessicarily an advantage though.

Suspension wise you can do basically all the same upgrades to a non-M car as you can an M3 - which is nice.

I supposed it depends what you consider to be a serious contender. It's definitely a capable platform and it has the aftermarket support for upgrades ranging from mild to full-out track/race builds. The reason I mention it will be relatively slow is due to the power you can get out of an N52. Yes, you can have a fairly light car with 250whp, but by modern standards that's unfortunately not fast.. It makes up for it in the corners and under braking (in a well setup car), but I don't want anyone to be lead on that an N52 BMW is going to be one of the fastest cars at a track day, that's all. For perspective, my E92 M3 is fully race prepped and weights 3200lbs with 380whp. It's still not fast in a straight line compared to a lot of other cars at a track day, it just makes up for it in other places. And compared to a ~3000-3200 N52 325/328/128 etc., with ~250whp, which is a big difference in power/weight to even an M3, the difference is even larger.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but I want to put it in perspective for people. I have experience with both on track so I'm able to share a fairly informed opinion. I still think an N52 3-series or 1-series is an excellent track car choice. With that being said, most people that are choosing the platform likely aren't searching for the fastest car either, they more so want a good sized, fairly light and good handling car - not mega power.

One suggestion regarding upgrades I will give though, is whether you are doing a mild build/upgrades for track use, or a more serious track build. When it comes time you want to upgrade subframe bushings, go straight to solid. There's simply no reason not to if you're going to be replacing them. There is almost ZERO increase in NVH from them, they're basically the same price, they are easy to install and the performance improvements are incredible.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Doesn't take much to make the N52's not have overheating issues on track, which is definitely nice.

I'm also quite familiar with the N52 platform as I also have a 128i that I've tracked and will be tracking more and more in the future. 240-250whp is realistic, unfortunately 260+ and certainly 270 isn't achievable with the typical upgrades. 3 stage intake manifold, headers, MILV's and a proper tune will give ~240-250 depending on the car. The highest I believe I've seen was 255 with these mods. To get to 270 you'll need to upgrade cams, N54 manifold and rev higher. The loss in torque from a different cam and moving the powerband upwards isn't nessicarily an advantage though.

Suspension wise you can do basically all the same upgrades to a non-M car as you can an M3 - which is nice.

I supposed it depends what you consider to be a serious contender. It's definitely a capable platform and it has the aftermarket support for upgrades ranging from mild to full-out track/race builds. The reason I mention it will be relatively slow is due to the power you can get out of an N52. Yes, you can have a fairly light car with 250whp, but by modern standards that's unfortunately not fast.. It makes up for it in the corners and under braking (in a well setup car), but I don't want anyone to be lead on that an N52 BMW is going to be one of the fastest cars at a track day, that's all. For perspective, my E92 M3 is fully race prepped and weights 3200lbs with 380whp. It's still not fast in a straight line compared to a lot of other cars at a track day, it just makes up for it in other places. And compared to a ~3000-3200 N52 325/328/128 etc., with ~250whp, which is a big difference in power/weight to even an M3, the difference is even larger.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but I want to put it in perspective for people. I have experience with both on track so I'm able to share a fairly informed opinion. I still think an N52 3-series or 1-series is an excellent track car choice. With that being said, most people that are choosing the platform likely aren't searching for the fastest car either, they more so want a good sized, fairly light and good handling car - not mega power.

One suggestion regarding upgrades I will give though, is whether you are doing a mild build/upgrades for track use, or a more serious track build. When it comes time you want to upgrade subframe bushings, go straight to solid. There's simply no reason not to if you're going to be replacing them. There is almost ZERO increase in NVH from them, they're basically the same price, they are easy to install and the performance improvements are incredible.

Well, OK, "serious " contender I mean in respect what you can get from a vehicle like that. I mean more power can be extracted from 1.8 TSI in VW, so yes, one will be slower.
I mean, I drop kids to daycare and go to track with child seats in the back . I don't pretend nor expect to be fastest, but it is a lot of fun.
For people who want to go as much as possible from 128 or 328, yes solid bushings, lower springs, B8 shocks, thicker sway bars etc. I personally use my car as daily driver and track car. So, I don't want to go crazy on suspension.
Yes, 260-270whp with N54 manifold, I can see not being able to go with 3-stage that much. You are right, push power upward and mid range suffer.
Still for people who just want fun on track, 128/328 is one of best options. It is strong chassis, small upgrades, and have fun.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by edycol

Well, OK, "serious " contender I mean in respect what you can get from a vehicle like that. I mean more power can be extracted from 1.8 TSI in VW, so yes, one will be slower.
I mean, I drop kids to daycare and go to track with child seats in the back . I don't pretend nor expect to be fastest, but it is a lot of fun.
For people who want to go as much as possible from 128 or 328, yes solid bushings, lower springs, B8 shocks, thicker sway bars etc. I personally use my car as daily driver and track car. So, I don't want to go crazy on suspension.
Yes, 260-270whp with N54 manifold, I can see not being able to go with 3-stage that much. You are right, push power upward and mid range suffer.
Still for people who just want fun on track, 128/328 is one of best options. It is strong chassis, small upgrades, and have fun.

Agreed.

I still stand by going solid subframe (nothing else) if you're doing subframe bushing, regardless if the car is a daily driver, a weekend car or a track only car. It's one of the few bushings that has no downsides. However, if you don't want to replace bushing, the Whiteline (or similar) subframe inserts are an excellent choice and a lot easier to install (and cheaper), and make a noticeable difference.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by tsk94

Agreed.

I still stand by going solid subframe (nothing else) if you're doing subframe bushing, regardless if the car is a daily driver, a weekend car or a track only car. It's one of the few bushings that has no downsides. However, if you don't want to replace bushing, the Whiteline (or similar) subframe inserts are an excellent choice and a lot easier to install (and cheaper), and make a noticeable difference.

Will see. I already pushed in powerflex street performance into subframe (as we speak my car is on jack stands). So, maybe later, will see. I know a lot of people are running solid ones. I am not a big fan of inserts. If the job is being done, I am going to do it properly, though the rear subframe is PITA.

[haaken675]

Originally Posted by Vivek.

I've tracked mine. It's great, but I agree that cooling becomes an issue on the N54. Definitely couldn't smash a 30 min session, typically I gotta take a quick cool down at the 10-12 minute mark, drive around the paddock for a minute or two, and hop back on. Note that this has never been due to any overheating warning or limp mode, just a precaution that I take when oil temp starts to get over 275. Good oil can hit 300F with no issues.

Are you running the stock oil cooler and thermostat? I recently did a mishimoto oil cooler sitting behind the kidney's and a 185 degree thermostat. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it does at the track. It stays really cool in the Florida summer heat so far, and I'm willing to bet it will work pretty good on track. If it doesn't, I'm considering adding a second and doing a larger radiator.

All turbo cars get hot, i just don't buy the heat being an n54 issue. It seems to be more of a lack of cooling from the factory since these are not factory built race cars.

I'm already on complete m3 control arms, revshift motor and trans mounts, condor solid subframe bushings, condor diff bushings, bilstein coils, adjustable toe arms, all new bushings everywhere, and a brand new set of nitto nt555's. Hoping to find a weekend to take this car to the track since my m52 turbo e30 isn't ready just yet.

[Biginboca]

Just to share, I had my second track day with my 328i yesterday. I think these videos I took show the platform has a lot to offer. I think specE90 is going to be a thing soon too.

And btw my car is still on oem brake pads and cheapo street tires (Falken FK510). This is my daily driven set up…

[Vivek.]

Originally Posted by haaken675

Are you running the stock oil cooler and thermostat? I recently did a mishimoto oil cooler sitting behind the kidney's and a 185 degree thermostat. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it does at the track. It stays really cool in the Florida summer heat so far, and I'm willing to bet it will work pretty good on track. If it doesn't, I'm considering adding a second and doing a larger radiator.

All turbo cars get hot, i just don't buy the heat being an n54 issue. It seems to be more of a lack of cooling from the factory since these are not factory built race cars.

I'm already on complete m3 control arms, revshift motor and trans mounts, condor solid subframe bushings, condor diff bushings, bilstein coils, adjustable toe arms, all new bushings everywhere, and a brand new set of nitto nt555's. Hoping to find a weekend to take this car to the track since my m52 turbo e30 isn't ready just yet.

Nice man, sounds like a good setup. I was running stock cooler and BMS thermostat bypass. I'd say the stock cooler is insufficient on track tbh, after 12-15 min it's getting to 280* or so

[fleetfoot]

So I finally got out on the track this year. I recently bought a 2017 M2 to replace my 2013 328i (original owner), but all my driving friends recommended I use the 328i for track learning purposes since there's less power, more linear delivery, and less cost if I total it.

My first track day was at Atlanta Motorsports Park, and honestly me and the 328i didn't do so great. My 2 year old valve cover gasket started leaking again, the pedals weren't close enough for consistent heel/toe downshifts, and my 2 year old Michelin Pilot Sport AS/3+ tires felt pretty sketchy. I spent most of the day in 3rd gear (to avoid shifting) trying to learn the line and practice giving point-bys...lots of those since I was pretty much the slowest guy out there. My confidence was pretty low after my first day, and I wasn't too enamored with the 328i. I started thinking about selling it.

Before my second track day at Road Atlanta, I replaced the valve cover gasket (again), installed some bimmerworld extended pedal covers, bought some Piloti driving shoes, and installed a fresh set of Michelin PS4S's. All of those improvements made the experience at Road Atlanta WAY better, even though it's a scarier track for a newbie. My heel/toe shifting was much more consistent, the new summer tires felt predictable and fantastic, and I wasn't worried about leaking oil the whole time.

Overall, it seems like my 328i has plenty of performance for me to explore and grow into. However, some of the more experienced drivers at the track recommended I consider swapping for a more focused and cheaper track car like a Miata or BRZ. I still love my bimmer though, so I think I'll hold on to it for a while longer.

sidenote: got to ride on the track in a G80 M3. Braking and overall speed were impressive. Grill wasn't attractive to me in person, and the exhaust note was too quiet for me to really hear.

[fleetfoot]

Oh and a few other technical notes:
1) Brakes have felt great so far, although I'm not consistently threshold braking. I did a DOT4 fluid flush right before my first event, and I have Hawk HPS 5.0 pads up front with Akebono ceramics in the rear. No fading.
2) Service interval showed 80,000 miles left on front brakes and 19,000 left on rear brakes before I started my second event. This dropped to 70,000 and 17,000 after the event.
3) Michelin PS4S's started with 9.5/32" and finished with ~7.5/32" with fairly even wear front/rear and inside/outside. I think I'll get about 4 track events per set of tires.
4) No oil consumption according to the digital gauge
5) Ambient air temps were in the upper 80's. Oil temp went barely over 250 degrees.
6) Across five ~30 minute sessions (~110 miles), I burned about 10 gallons of fuel.
7) I ran 32/39psi front/rear for my first day and didn't like the balance so I switched to 34/36psi front/rear for my second day. That felt much better. But from looking at the wear on the sidewalls, it looked like the rears weren't rolling over enough. I may go down to 34/34 next time.