[zero21]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

What’s the thought process on buying an M2 v M4 other than saving $10k? These reviews seem to indicate it’s not much of a different driving experience but less powerful…?

I don't know about you but I'm not into burning 12k for bragging rights of an M4 base, when an M2 base does the same thing.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by VR1

The more reviews I see the more I want a 1M or F87 CS. The older Ms seemed to place driver engagement first and everything else secondary. The G series cars seem to place tech/comfort first and driver engagement second.

Including build quality and comfort. Have at it my friend!

[dukat1]

Originally Posted by zero21

That's not exactly accurate. I think most of us are not concerned that a car doesn't subjectively fill someone's needs (looks, etc.). I think what we're shitting on is that not only did they say dumb things (contradicting prior reviews), they more importantly did dumb things in the car. Like shifting into 4th at 30mph to exclaim how slow it is. Seriously, WTF?

They offered almost zero technical information, no insights into new specs or context of CLAR platform or inspiration for the car, or designer (Jose Casas) information, etc. They just lambasted it for not being an update of the original, even though the whole platform grew up for safety reasons, and all objective data means they are more capable vehicles even with added tech and safety.

In my book, that is a home run, if the design isn't universally loved.

Thats a fair point and criticism of TH for how they presented the information, however some people seem emotional based on the fact that TH simply did not like the car.

[T_U_D]

For those that might be unaware Steve Dinan sold Dinan in 2015 when he went to work for Chip Ganassi Racing.

Steve Dinan Leaves His Company Behind and Moves to Ganassi Racing: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/s...ing-92241.html


Edit, the above is in regards to the following.

Originally Posted by M2PDX

I have been told by staff at all 3 dealers I've used over the years that they don't care if you add a short shift kit. It doesn't affect the engine, emissions or other key areas. It would only be a problem if the LINKAGE you added failed. Of course the dealer would not cover that.

But, stick with a reputable source, like Rogue, UUC, AutoSolutions, Dinan, Turner

It SHOULD eliminate rubbery feel some of the reviewers discussed.

.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by zero21

I don't know about you but I'm not into burning 12k for bragging rights of an M4 base, when an M2 base does the same thing.

My m3 didn’t have this laggy power problem and less HP, less interior volume - those aren’t bragging rights

[eddj]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

Hey Everyone, Thomas from Throttle House here. Our review of the M2 was very thoroughly thought out, and we stand by the things we said. Drop your questions here and I'll try to answer them.

To address one thing re: lugging the engine in 4th. We also did the same in second gear the moment before and you can see how unresponsive the powertrain is at low revs. The 4th gear pull was just a way of REALLY showing it off. For reference my OG M2 pulls hard almost immediately at lower revs. Off boost turbocharged motors feel really dull. And the amount of off-boost in this engine is much larger than normal. But feel free to respond and I'll partake in discussion!
This car is very important to me, and I'm not pleased with a few of the choices BMW has made in the development of the new one. At this point, I probably wont chat about styling too much, because as you saw... I kind of said it all already...

Don't worry, some of the ones who already placed an order on this car without having patience to see enough many reviews, comparisons to other cars, wait for the LCI/Comp/CS models down the line will always bash the reviews which say anything negative about their " on order baby " .

[Ghostrider.1127]

Originally Posted by eddj

Don't worry, some of the ones who already placed an order on this car without having patience to see enough many reviews, comparisons to other cars, wait for the LCI/Comp/CS models down the line will always bash the reviews which say anything negative about their " on order baby " .

Like the 2024 LCI m240ix?

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by eddj

Don't worry, some of the ones who already placed an order on this car without having patience to see enough many reviews, comparisons to other cars, wait for the LCI/Comp/CS models down the line will always bash the reviews which say anything negative about their " on order baby " .

Lol, wut? The bulk of the confusion has been about them bringing up an issue that no other reviewer has mentioned. Many other reviewers have had very good things to say about both the stick driving experience and the car in general. It's only natural for there to be some skepticism of their portrayal of it.

[Throttle House Thomas]

Originally Posted by Reesnat

Hi Thomas, good to see you here and open to taking some questions.

As a F87 Competition owner, this car is extremely important to me as well.

The turbo lag at lower rev ranges is something I felt with the G82 M4 as well which I drove on track. But in the Auto, it’s hard to believe it’s as bad as has been represented by your review and none of the others have pointed it out as much as you guys.

I wish you guys spent more time with the Auto to give the car a better chance. I believe the ‘get a manual to be cool’ train is a bit overdone. As a track enthusiast myself I knew the Auto was the only choice for me.

With that said, would you say the auto pretty much sorts out the power delivery for you?

Also, as a track enthusiast, isn’t a more sorted and capable car a pro? I couldn’t understand the excessive bashing it got for not being as tail happy as the F87. This seems like a car that’s much easier to drive on the limit than previously for most non-race car drivers.

We only had a short time with the auto, as is the nature of press events, but yes, because of the gearing the auto feels much more suited to the nature of the power band. The whole car felt more lively. Since the way they tuned the engine means that its all about high revs, the longer gearing in the manual meant you spent too much time outside of the powerband in normal driving.

A more capable car is a pro yes. HOWEVER, the thing that attracted me to the M2 in the first place is that it felt like a skunkworks car. Where they stuffed some fat ass suspension components into a 2 series and gave it a ton of power. It was a handful. If I wanted a better M2... i'd buy an M4.

All of this said, I want to drive this car on the track. Why the global launch was on road is beyond me....

[JWG80M3]

I’ve wanted a BMW M3 since I was in high school (early ‘90s). Been a fan of BMW since I was a young kid and my German grandmother would tell me about my great-uncle, who worked for BMW for over 40-years. I was finally able to buy my own M3 in 2021.

It was a base G80, 6MT, in Brooklyn Grey with Silverstone and black calipers. I decided to buy it after having the opportunity to test drive the 2021 M340. Put money down on my build in March of 2021, picked it up in July. I drove it on the autobahn every weekend for at least 4.5 hours until November of 2022. I washed and detailed it every week. It sat idle Monday-Friday. I loved it.

I took it in for routine maintenance in October 2021. A week later a sales agent called me and asked if I was considering trading it in. I told him no, I was planning to be burried in it. Yet then, I thought, what could I get for a trade-in and could I use it to get the new M2? We discussed it, I brought my M3 by the dealership and spoke with the sales manager, and we made an agreement. I gave up my M3 and built an M2. I am excited to get it…whenever it eventually arrives. I will drive the dogsh$& out of it, I will wash and detail it every weekend, I will love it, and I will be burried in it.

While I wait for delivery, just like I did with my M3, I will watch every video and read every review. I will be entertained by them, and they will help to facilitate my daydreaming. What they won’t ever do is cause me to pick a car.

We don’t think the way we think we think. We make decisions based on irrational and animal thoughts that we are not aware of, and we make decisions before we realize that we have made them. After that, we rationalize our decisions to convince others…and ourselves…that we “thought” and made a “deliberate” or “informed” decision.

I enjoy watching all of these reviews, and am a subscriber to most of them all on YouTube. Almost no one liked how my buck toothed M3 looked, but I loved it. Almost no one likes how the new M2 looks and yet I dragged my wife past it at least five times when I saw it at the Stuttgart auto show in February.

I enjoyed listening to experts discuss the finer points of design, engineering and performance and all the shortcomings they perceived in this car or that car, and yet I smiled uncontrollably every time I got behind the wheel of my M3. I know I will do the same when I get my M2…eventually.

[Humdizzle]

watched the smoking tire review

i agree with their zacks assessment. great car, but wouldn't be happy looking at it in my garage. part of me also feels like matt though... maybe with some time i 'could' get used to it. i saw the all black one on youtube and though 'ya know its not great... but its not hideous'.

i still can't look at a m3/m4 front grill without feeling nauseated.

[Ghostrider.1127]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

James: “Dude, you’re getting destroyed on the forums, get in there”

James is also registered here , and he posted even before Thomas....

[Reesnat]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

We only had a short time with the auto, as is the nature of press events, but yes, because of the gearing the auto feels much more suited to the nature of the power band. The whole car felt more lively. Since the way they tuned the engine means that its all about high revs, the longer gearing in the manual meant you spent too much time outside of the powerband in normal driving.

A more capable car is a pro yes. HOWEVER, the thing that attracted me to the M2 in the first place is that it felt like a skunkworks car. Where they stuffed some fat ass suspension components into a 2 series and gave it a ton of power. It was a handful. If I wanted a better M2... i'd buy an M4.

All of this said, I want to drive this car on the track. Why the global launch was on road is beyond me....

Thanks, yeah that makes sense and I can see where you are coming from.

But if I may, as a reviewer who is talking to all types of people maybe it’s better to provide a more balanced view?

Let me share my personal view and why I’m engadging in conversation- I owned the M2 Comp for 3 years and in many instances I always found myself fighting the rear, both on road and even more on track. Constantly having to worry when the rear will break loose.

The thing you mentioned as a Pro about your own OG M2 where it gets squirlly in a straight line, is one of the things that put me off about the M2C (thought it was fun at times).

I’m looking for a car next that will be still lively and fun but it needs to be a lot more predictable, and stable, which this seems to do. It seems like it’s taken a step closer to the more ‘sorted’ Porsches.

So, I’m feeling like you wanting the tail happy rowdy of a car is clouding the more ‘sorted’ nature of the new G87?

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Throttle House Thomas

All of this said, I want to drive this car on the track. Why the global launch was on road is beyond me....

They picked some horrible roads to drive on as well. Lived in Scottsdale for number of years, much better roads to drive than those. Also numerous tracks they could have rented out for the day.

[dukat1]

Originally Posted by Reesnat

Thanks, yeah that makes sense and I can see where you are coming from.

But if I may, as a reviewer who is talking to all types of people maybe it’s better to provide a more balanced view?

Let me share my personal view and why I’m engadging in conversation- I owned the M2 Comp for 3 years and in many instances I always found myself fighting the rear, both on road and even more on track. Constantly having to worry when the rear will break loose.

The thing you mentioned as a Pro about your own OG M2 where it gets squirlly in a straight line, is one of the things that put me off about the M2C (thought it was fun at times).

I’m looking for a car next that will be still lively and fun but it needs to be a lot more predictable, and stable, which this seems to do. It seems like it’s taken a step closer to the more ‘sorted’ Porsches.

So, I’m feeling like you wanting the tail happy rowdy of a car is clouding the more ‘sorted’ nature of the new G87?

in a perfect world BMW would make the M4 the Sorted car, leave the M2 as the small rowdy option that made it popular in the first place. I think that's where a lot of people including myself are coming from.

[Throttle House Thomas]

Originally Posted by zero21

That's not exactly accurate. I think most of us are not concerned that a car doesn't subjectively fill someone's needs (looks, etc.). I think what we're shitting on is that not only did they say dumb things (contradicting prior reviews), they more importantly did dumb things in the car. Like shifting into 4th at 30mph to exclaim how slow it is. Seriously, WTF?

They offered almost zero technical information, no insights into new specs or context of CLAR platform or inspiration for the car, or designer (Jose Casas) information, etc. They just lambasted it for not being an update of the original, even though the whole platform grew up for safety reasons, and all objective data means they are more capable vehicles even with added tech and safety.

In my book, that is a home run, if the design isn't universally loved.

I appreciate the criticisms (seriously it keeps us honest).
We didn't necessarily contradict prior reviews but I understand why it seems that way. We always have lauded a peaky power band yes. But, in N/A motors. Turbocharged motors outside of the boost threshold don't have the response of an N/A motor. As a perfect example James' Miata, at similar revs and speeds feels punchier than this M2. So yes, we like a peaky powerband, but not when it harms usability down low. (see the second gear pull James did right before that 4th gear one). And all of that said, one of the fun aspects of the original M2 (and comp) was that it was a little bulldog down low. It broke traction, it was punchy, and angry. The new car feels longer, more settled, stable. (again I did say that does make it objectively better).

As for the technical information that is the fault of the launch itself. Back in the day, an M launch would involved slideshows and discussions about suspension design, differential tuning, and engine components. This had NONE of that. I had to fight to even get the information that the wheels were cast and not forged. The bulk of the presentations were about M as a "brand" or simple highlights and performance figures etc. Makes our job hard. Is it wrong that I miss hour long ultra-dry press presentations where an engineer goes on about camber...

[donm527]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Just curious, for current model year cars, what would you compare the 2023 M2 to?

RS3

[86zccrx]

Taken from when the G80/G82 were released, a thread talked about how the S55 and S58 compared and it seems like there were similar comments regarding power delivery.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Boost threshold = the RPM at which an engine needs to be at to generate the desired boost pressure from the turbo

Turbo lag = the time in which the turbos themselves need to spool to reach optimal boost pressure

S58 has both a higher boost threshold and more turbo lag than S55 because of its lower compression ratio and bigger turbos. The "linear" powerband is just a byproduct of the classic big turbo formula. If you're driving below say 3.5k (as the above poster suggests) you will be out of the boost threshold whereas S55 is within or closer to its boost threshold. When out of boost, S58 will take slightly longer than S55 to spool - which is usually represented by throttle response which I think you are describing above. S55 throttle response is greatly aided by its high compression ratio and smaller turbos (theoretically S55 is producing more natural power relative to its total output due to the higher ratio and therefore needs less help from the turbos - i.e smaller turbos), the expense of which is less objective top end power and tuning potential (which is why S58 is such a monster). Simplistically, that's really all there is to it - I've driven X3M and noticed both the higher threshold and slightly more lag in "normal" driving, but both of those aren't a problem if you're driving in a performance context as the engine is always under load and you're always in boost and above the threshold.

https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...63&postcount=4

[donm527]

I'm more curious to see how it will fare against a '23 RS3 and which is the better car on the track.

Originally Posted by E63M6_G42M240i

Disappointed in throttle house. Car will be miles faster onnthe track and strip than the F87 regardless of the extra heft. It’s simply a matter of looks and unfortunately the F87 is a better looker.

[E63M6_G42M240i]

Originally Posted by donm527

I'm more curious to see how it will fare against a '23 RS3 and which is the better car on the track.

Better car than what? The F87? As you point out they haven’t tested the G87 against it. Should be interesting but my money is on the G87 (auto) more power/torque, and RWD albeit with 200+ lbs 🤦‍♂️

[Throttle House Thomas]

Originally Posted by E63M6_G42M240i

Disappointed in throttle house. Car will be miles faster onnthe track and strip than the F87 regardless of the extra heft. It’s simply a matter of looks and unfortunately the F87 is a better looker.

To be clear we NEVER SAID the new M2 is going to be slower. In a straight line, or around a track. We pointed out the manual isnt as usable in everyday driving, and we discussed how the new M2 isnt as FUN. I would imagine it will be quicker around the track than the original M2. (I'm sure we will test this). But because of its weight, wheelbase, and tuning, it isn't as lively, nor as engaging as the old one. But again that doesn't mean its "worse."

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by donm527

I'm more curious to see how it will fare against a '23 RS3 and which is the better car on the track.

The RS3 is all about AWD grip on a FWD biased MQB chassis, but the feel will be quite different to the M2 as it is quite front heavy. They have tried to balance out the RS3 handling somewhat by fitting 265 wide front tyres on 19x9 wheels with narrower 245 wide rear tyres on 19x8 wheels.