[NathanJT]

Hi all, sorry if this has already been posted but it seems we're going to be facing the same kind of blockades as back in 2000:

http://www.petrolprices.com/blog/pet...nesday-86.html

I guess only time will tell, but I'll be filling up tomorrow night just in case

[dxb335d]

i aint fussed lol, its well over priced for sure!! if i cant get juice for half a day then so be it!!

[NathanJT]

Yes Carl, but it was 2 weeks last time!

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by NathanJT

Yes Carl, but it was 2 weeks last time!

was it?, just stick ya Miswah's nurses outfit on and they will let you fill up

Worked for my mates mum last time (but she was a real nurse)

[NFS]

Originally Posted by NathanJT

Yes Carl, but it was 2 weeks last time!

I'm probably in a minority, but I had no sympathy for the protesters last time round.

I think the government should have sent the army in to bust some heads.

The only people to be inconvenienced in these situations are the general public and I find it pretty annoying that a minority pressure group was allowed to p*ss everyone about to the extent we saw last time round.

According to the website it's now scheduled to commence Sat 15th Dec 07.

I'd chuck em all in jail.

[NathanJT]

NFS,

So you're happy with the implication that +£1/litre is the norm from now on then?

Given the COMPLETELY corrupt and deaf eared nature of all governments, how would you go about getting the point across if you're not?

[NFS]

Originally Posted by NathanJT

NFS,

So you're happy with the implication that +£1/litre is the norm from now on then?

Given the COMPLETELY corrupt and deaf eared nature of all governments, how would you go about getting the point across if you're not?

My understanding is that fuel taxes are percentage based.

Whilst the percentages have not changed, crude oil prices have increased over time so the actual amount of tax has also increased.

The argument of the protesters is that this is simply a financial 'windfall' to the revenue and that they should reduce the percentage of tax applied so that the amount of tax is more in line with that paid historically.

I don't personally feel that fuel should be more affordable. We already have an increasing number of vehicles on the road and most people can obviously afford to put fuel in them.

The UK is signed up the Kyoto accord which requires us to achieve reductions in CO2 emissions. Reducing the cost of fuel will only lead to greater usage which would clearly not be sustainable.

Increase fuel cost also keeps pressure on car manufacturers to find alternatives to fossil fuel, which we badly need given that the worlds resources of oil will become significantly depleted and unaffordable within our lifetimes. This is especially important if you believe that the OPEC countries have exaggerated their stocks to prolong our reliance on oil.

The argument is essentially based on a feeling that this the cost of fuel is unfair because it is cheaper in other countries. This is not a cogent argument in respect of the general public. All sorts of factors, including income, differ widely from country to counrty.

The main pressure group responsible for the protests is the road hauliers association, who argue that european based hauliers can undercut them because they have access to cheap fuel.

I understand this argument, but don't believe that cheap fuel is the answer. The economics of the situation will play out and this may change the make up of the industry, but I don't see a need for intervention.

Notwithstanding the above, the method of protest, which would inconvenience the country as a whole is unacceptable to me.

[NathanJT]

Kyoto aside (which I also disagree with) this isn't JUST about the price of fuel it's also the knock on effect of the price of goods in the UK. It won't be long until the increase in delivery costs is passed on to the high street.

Fuel duty WAS increased in October, and will be increased again early next year so this isn't just a one time issue which will probably go away of its own accord in the next few months. The basic argument at the moment is that we're now to accept that 1 litre of fuel will cost in excess of £1 from now on, permanently!

As for it being percentage based, yes it is.... and that's half the reason why it's so damned unfair. We have VAT on top of Duty, so that's taxation of an already applied tax!

But anyway, I guess I shouldn't complain... we do after all have the best roads in Europe and the cheapest most cost efficient public transport network, so really it's small price to pay. Oh, hang on a minute....

[Dave_3]

Just ducking under the crossfire here ... but as someone whose family have a petrol station, it effects them a lot harder financially than the Gov or Petrol companies for every blockade. Also first to get it in the neck with moans when the price goes up. The actual profit to a petrol station on a litre is absolutely farcical - pennies.

On a side note, I see my Brother has a Z3 for sale. That might sort out my Christmas transport

D.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by NathanJT

Kyoto aside (which I also disagree with) this isn't JUST about the price of fuel it's also the knock on effect of the price of goods in the UK. It won't be long until the increase in delivery costs is passed on to the high street.

Fuel duty WAS increased in October, and will be increased again early next year so this isn't just a one time issue which will probably go away of its own accord in the next few months. The basic argument at the moment is that we're now to accept that 1 litre of fuel will cost in excess of £1 from now on, permanently!

As for it being percentage based, yes it is.... and that's half the reason why it's so damned unfair. We have VAT on top of Duty, so that's taxation of an already applied tax!

But anyway, I guess I shouldn't complain... we do after all have the best roads in Europe and the cheapest most cost efficient public transport network, so really it's small price to pay. Oh, hang on a minute....

It's an interesting debate and it sounds as if we are on opposite sides of it

Two things spring to mind, based on your last points:

1. Tax isn't money that is chucked away. Regardless of your thoughts about the government and the public sector, the tax revenue from fuel isn't wasted. If fuel taxation was reduced, either services would be cut or other taxes would be increased.

2. I honestly don't understand why people think that oil should be cheap. It's a scarce resource which will run out in our lifetime. Even at £1 per litre their are no shortage of cars on the road - in fact our roads are at bursting point. You mention the cost of delivery, but retail prices for food and other consumer goods (especially electronics) have been dropping year on year. The economy can and will sustain increases in fuel prices.

[NathanJT]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Just ducking under the crossfire here ... but as someone whose family have a petrol station, it effects them a lot harder financially than the Gov or Petrol companies for every blockade. Also first to get it in the neck with moans when the price goes up. The actual profit to a petrol station on a litre is absolutely farcical - pennies.

Agreed, my cousin has a station up in Liverpool. And people wonder why the chocolate is expensive in petrol stations!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

Just ducking under the crossfire here ... but as someone whose family have a petrol station, it effects them a lot harder financially than the Gov or Petrol companies for every blockade. Also first to get it in the neck with moans when the price goes up. The actual profit to a petrol station on a litre is absolutely farcical - pennies.

On a side note, I see my Brother has a Z3 for sale. That might sort out my Christmas transport

D.

My brother in law has a petrol station, which he owns outright.

I agree that in general most proprieters make very little on fuel. Instead they make money selling goods in the store, or in my bro-in-laws case he makes a killing selling red diesel (legally) to local farmers and builders.

[Serjames]

Originally Posted by NathanJT

And people wonder why the chocolate is expensive in petrol stations!

Hey maybe I should get some of MY stuff in there

[NathanJT]

NFS,

1) I guess that's a matter of opinion and if the tax isn't on cigarettes it'll be on fuel or something else. The problem here isn't about waste it's about the lack of clarity as to where the money goes. But hey, that's a whole other subject!

2) The argument ultimately isn't about the price of oil, it's simply about the astronomical level of taxation placed on top of it. The oil companies do an absolutely awesome job of getting the fuel to the stations if you think about exactly what they charge for it. It's the subsequent daylight robbery thereafter that gets peoples back up.

Electronics etc are, lets face it, a luxury. As such I really couldn't give a toss about any increase in their prices caused by this. However, I cannot agree that food is cheaper. Maybe it's just my region, but I've noticed a marked increase in the price of food recently (yes that could also be the seasonal sting).

I certainly don't penny pinch, and I guess I'm lucky enough that this simply won't affect me (as I guess are most of the people on this forum). However, what happens when it's £1.50 a litre or even £2? yeah, there will be less cars on the roads but I'll also have to think twice about driving. But that's part of my job, so do I pass the cost on and simply accept it "Just because"....or?

[dxb335d]

Everyones fookin brother seems to own/run a sodding petrol station!

[Evil Diesel]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

It's an interesting debate and it sounds as if we are on opposite sides of it

Two things spring to mind, based on your last points:

1. Tax isn't money that is chucked away. Regardless of your thoughts about the government and the public sector, the tax revenue from fuel isn't wasted. If fuel taxation was reduced, either services would be cut or other taxes would be increased.

2. I honestly don't understand why people think that oil should be cheap. It's a scarce resource which will run out in our lifetime. Even at £1 per litre their are no shortage of cars on the road - in fact our roads are at bursting point. You mention the cost of delivery, but retail prices for food and other consumer goods (especially electronics) have been dropping year on year. The economy can and will sustain increases in fuel prices.

Are you out of your mind?

Tax money is totally pissed away by a bunch of idiots on index linked, final salary pensions.

You talk about retail prices dropping. That is total b/s. If you believe in the RPI or CPI then you are mad. Have you heard of 'chaining' - this assumes that if the price of one good increases then consumers will switch to another and therefore the increase is ignored. Even better is 'hedonic adjustment' - i.e. if the price of a laptop is £800 last year and the price is £750 this year then, if you allow for the improvement in technology, the hedonic price this year may be £500. This allows those the compile the figures a qualitative control over the final figures resulting in total bullshit results. Does anyone really believe that inflation is 2% (CPI)? or 4.3% (RPI)? In real terms everyday inflation is running at 9 - 14%.

Now that the days of imported deflation from China are over next year will sort the men from the boys - time to get your gearing down chaps!!!!!

[Dave_3]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Everyones fookin brother seems to own/run a sodding petrol station!

I wouldn't call my Brother "fookin".

He's less tolerant than me ......

D.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Dave_3

I wouldn't call my Brother "fookin".

He's less tolerant than me ......

D.

Fackin then

Shouldnt this be in ''Off-topic''

[NFS]

Originally Posted by NathanJT

However, what happens when it's £1.50 a litre or even £2? yeah, there will be less cars on the roads but I'll also have to think twice about driving.

For me that's the point. The time has come to think twice about driving sometimes.

Originally Posted by Evil Diesel

Are you out of your mind?

Possibly

Originally Posted by Evil Diesel

Tax money is totally pissed away by a bunch of idiots on index linked, final salary pensions.

Slight exaggeration ... if it was totally pissed away then all the hospitals would be shut .. rather than open, but completely inefficient.

Originally Posted by Evil Diesel

You talk about retail prices dropping. That is total b/s. If you believe in the RPI or CPI then you are mad. Have you heard of 'chaining' - this assumes that if the price of one good increases then consumers will switch to another and therefore the increase is ignored. Even better is 'hedonic adjustment' - i.e. if the price of a laptop is £800 last year and the price is £750 this year then, if you allow for the improvement in technology, the hedonic price this year may be £500. This allows those the compile the figures a qualitative control over the final figures resulting in total bullshit results. Does anyone really believe that inflation is 2% (CPI)? or 4.3% (RPI)? In real terms everyday inflation is running at 9 - 14%.

Now that the days of imported deflation from China are over next year will sort the men from the boys - time to get your gearing down chaps!!!!!

The retail prices for many types of goods are not increasing in line with inflation and appear to be dropping in real terms. We can all see this for ourselves.

Much of this is down to supply chain efficiency and logistics. I think we have both seen all those new shiny warehouses which accomodate all the cheap imported goods we like to buy.

I also agree that improvement in technology is a big factor, expecially in terms of electronics.

I'm not quite ready to believe that this over, just because China has decided to become a 'pseudo capitalist' economy, but time will tell.

[squeezebm]

NFS,your wrong Simple as

[NathanJT]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

For me that's the point. The time has come to think twice about driving sometimes.

But unfortunately by that time there will be NO economy to speak of in this country. You have to face facts, the gov. are reaping the "rewards" of higher taxation but do you honestly believe they're doing anything about finding an alternative?

Of course they're not, because like it or not, high taxation is exactly what they want!

As I see it the 2 are mutually exclusive. You cannot have an ethical government which is concerned about the environment because they're too reliant on the tax they raise from the very source of pollution in the first place. They have to "balance the books" as it were, but you can bet your last 1p that they'll balance it in their favour!

And that's only *IF* you believe in MMGW anyway

[NFS]

Originally Posted by squeezebm

NFS,your wrong Simple as

I said I thought I would be in the minority

But seriously absolutely EVERYONE on this forum can afford to pay £1 a litre for fuel.

If some people can't afford to pay this, they will drive less. If that means less people in my way on the road, then it's got to be a good thing

I would be the first to applaud if the government dropped VAT on claret to 5%. Hell, I'd like a lot of things to be cheaper, but I'm not going to blockade majestic wine warehouse until it happens.

Originally Posted by NathanJT

But unfortunately by that time there will be NO economy to speak of in this country. You have to face facts, the gov. are reaping the "rewards" of higher taxation but do you honestly believe they're doing anything about finding an alternative?

Of course they're not, because like it or not, high taxation is exactly what they want!

As I see it the 2 are mutually exclusive. You cannot have an ethical government which is concerned about the environment because they're too reliant on the tax they raise from the very source of pollution in the first place. They have to "balance the books" as it were, but you can bet your last 1p that they'll balance it in their favour!

And that's only *IF* you believe in MMGW anyway

No government benefits from high taxation. They only benefit (by staying in office) if they balance taxation, debt and the provision of public services to the satisfaction of the voters.

It might be easier to balance the books in a condition of high taxes, but that kind of strategy is going to backfire on any government at election time.

As to the point about economics and sustainability being mutually exclusive. Trust me .. it won't stay that way for long. The vast majority of people do believe in man made global warming and business in the UK and globally is beginning to reflect this.

All the major retailers have published plans to become carbon neutral by 2010-2015. The man who invented the derivatives market has now bought 'climate exchanges' in a number of key markets and the trade in carbon credits (CO2e) will increase exponentially in the coming years.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech...01/1sandor.htm

The economy is changing right now. Climate change is becoming an integral part of this and cheap fuel is not going to happen.