[Cloud9blue]

Had a blast at Gingerman Raceway this afternoon with my 335i. Was actually pleasantly surprised how well the car handles given that I am still running on factory performance shocks/springs (guess the M3 parts helped a lot). Hankook RS3 grips quite well too, was able to pull just over 1g through most of the corners.

Only complaint, the stock textar brake pads, started to experience noticeable brake fads after I got myself familiarized with the track. Now I am stuck with a long pedal travel even after the car cooled off, not sure it is either the glazed brake pads or boiled fluids (I did replaced the fluid with Motul RBF600 in March, would imagine they should be fine...). Oh well, time to save up for better pads for the next event...

Anyway, here is the video. Any recommendation on brake pads that are good for the track but liveable for street driving in the summer too? Was thinking about Performance Friction 08, but damn they are expensive. Is Hawk HP+ any good for our 3600lbs car?

[Raptor04]

What jb4 map were you running and did you notice any cooling issues? How long were your sessions?

[Cloud9blue]

I was running map 5, with Bms pump backend flash running 30% ethanol. Oil temp does get high since the ambient temp is over 90, but I can keep it just under limp mode (below 275F) by blasting the heater on and enabling the max cool mode. Sessions are 20 mins long.

[Raptor04]

Is this with stock oil cooler? Any other cooling mods?

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Raptor001

Is this with stock oil cooler? Any other cooling mods?

Yes, no other engine mod other than DP and FMIC. See my sig.

Not to start a tuning war, but I would ditch the Vishn/Proceed if I were you, since they pretty much doesn't support it anymore.

[WRichieX]

Oh man! I've been wanting to track my car at Gingerman since I got it. Haven't had a chance to. Looks like fun. Gotta get a helmet.

[StealYourFace]

fun stuff!

These cars are super capable. I think most people would have trouble getting 6/10s out of a new 320i with a sport pack and a stick quite frankly.

Enjoy your ride!

[Raptor04]

Im running wedge's e50 open source tune, that i have modified slightly. Its based on shiv's OFT e40 tune. Guess i should change my sig... Lol

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Yes, no other engine mod other than DP and FMIC. See my sig.

Not to start a tuning war, but I would ditch the Vishn/Proceed if I were you, since they pretty much doesn't support it anymore.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by WRichieX

Oh man! I've been wanting to track my car at Gingerman since I got it. Haven't had a chance to. Looks like fun. Gotta get a helmet.

2.5-3 hour drive from Chicago, but totally worth it. Track is very safe with tons of run-off, very beginner friendly! Just get proper track pads and fluid, slowing down from 120-130mph every other minute is no small feat for a 3600lbs car.

Got myself a set of EBC Yellow (one of the only few track oriented pads with stock style retaining clips), will see how these work out for me.

[WRichieX]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

2.5-3 hour drive from Chicago, but totally worth it. Track is very safe with tons of run-off, very beginner friendly! Just get proper track pads and fluid, slowing down from 120-130mph every other minute is no small feat for a 3600lbs car.

Got myself a set of EBC Yellow (one of the only few track oriented pads with stock style retaining clips), will see how these work out for me.

Yea I think I need to replace pads soon. Might just need to upgrade.

Edit: Also, I heard that convertibles need a roll cage at gingerman. Is that true?

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by WRichieX

Yea I think I need to replace pads soon. Might just need to upgrade.

Edit: Also, I heard that convertibles need a roll cage at gingerman. Is that true?

Check with whatever organization you decide to run with. But you might be right, didn't notice you have an e93

[The HACK]

If you intend to do this more often, I highly suggest you go with an organization that puts a coach or an instructor in your passenger seat at all times...There are some bad habits that needs to stop right now.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by The HACK

If you intend to do this more often, I highly suggest you go with an organization that puts a coach or an instructor in your passenger seat at all times...There are some bad habits that needs to stop right now.

No worry, it was a test and tune night at the track which they didn't offer any instruction since I want to see how the car performs before I do a full weekend HPDE.

I noticed some of the lines I took wasn't ideal from reviewing the videos, but it would be great if you can point out some the bad habits you see. Always happy to hear some advices from the more experienced.

[Cloud9blue]

Interesting to note that my front slotted discs are in better shape than my rear blank, which have some significant but even pad deposit and some visible grooving. Spectators were commenting that the rear brakes spark quite a bit at the later session. Perhaps slotted disc does help at least for OEM pads.

[Raptor04]

Plus the rears are still working even with DSC off because it won't turn off 100%.

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Interesting to note that my front slotted discs are in better shape than my rear blank, which have some significant but even pad deposit and some visible grooving. Spectators were commenting that the rear brakes spark quite a bit at the later session. Perhaps slotted disc does help at least for OEM pads.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Raptor001

Plus the rears are still working even with DSC off because it won't turn off 100%.

You might be right. Although I was never sure my car has ADB (Automatic Differential Braking), since I used to get plenty of single wheel spin during winter before the LSD install. Though LSD would have solved that problem.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

No worry, it was a test and tune night at the track which they didn't offer any instruction since I want to see how the car performs before I do a full weekend HPDE.

I noticed some of the lines I took wasn't ideal from reviewing the videos, but it would be great if you can point out some the bad habits you see. Always happy to hear some advices from the more experienced.

Hard to explain without being in the car. The most obvious one is your seating position. It looks like you're too far away from the steering wheel, resulting in the top arm being nearly straight when you need to turn the steering wheel 90 degrees. This will result in a much more difficult recovery in a spin, since a nearly straight elbow can't provide the same leverage to allow you to counter-steer rapidly. In addition, in the worst case scenario where an impact is involved, with your elbow nearly locked in that position you will dislocate your elbow, shoulder, and should the airbag go off, you're looking at a 6-8 month rehab before you can use one of your arm again.

That's the most glaring one. Ideally, you'd want to sit approximately 12" away from the airbag in a relatively upright position, with your elbow having a nice natural bend when the bottom of your palms are placed on the top of the steering wheel. This will give you the best leverage on the steering wheel.

The "line" is the least of your concerns. I've always taught that once you have the basics down, the line will come naturally. Your biggest problem is you're not looking nearly far enough, resulting in poor judgement of the line and unnecessary secondary steering wheel adjustments mid corner. As you pick up speed, there's only so much your car can do to prevent the laws of physics from biting you. Trying to fix the line without fixing the issue with the vision won't help much.

Sorry to be so harsh. I know I'm raining on your parade, but I stress this to every driver in every car I ever crawl into. This isn't a safe sport. In fact Motorsport is one of the few sport where people have died RECENTLY from participating in it at the highest level, but doing it right can mitigate a lot of the risk inherently involved in the amateur ranks.

I'm being ultra critical, I know. I don't want to scare anyone away from the sport. And I do applaud anyone who actually enjoys the "Ultimate Driving Machine" as the engineers intend it to be, rather than just be a victim of BMW's marketing. And it's easy to sit behind a smartphone Monday Morning Quarterbacking someone else's driving...probably not what you expected to see when you posted the video.

Just 15 years and hundreds (probably thousands at this point) of laps churned both in the drivers and passenger seat talking.

[///Machiavelli]

if i may add my 2cents, in no particular order:

-heed The Hack's advice
-turn off the displays, you don't need to visual distraction
-get a pair of nomex gloves, are you wearing thin-soled shoes?
-loosen your death grip on the wheel - you're cutting blood flow and numbing feel
-are you pulling down to turn the wheel? it's easier to pull a string than pull it
-you are scrubbing speed through turns - if you are not going to trail brake, get all your braking done before turn in, neutral (maintenance) throttle to apex, accelerate out of apex
-lose the power mods - you've traded away reliability/endurance and you don't know how to drive fast yet. as you say, you are verging on limp mode inducing temps and it sucks to lose track time due to a mechanical
-smooth out your steering inputs - you're sawing at the wheel even on straights and really chucking the car into some turns, vision will help
-quit fighting the car. the tires are squealing, it looks to be understeering - you're trying to finger fuck her when you should be dancing with her, it's a waltz
-forget the line, there is no line - stop driving from cone to cone, worrying about being in the right place at the right time. try different ways around the track, see what works for you and your car. yeah yeah, there is a consensus "fastest" way around the track but you ain't out there for trophies or podiums at the moment so get comfortable being anywhere at any time.
-for heaven's sakes, go to a DE, get an instructor in the car. why clubs let people with zero experience out by themselves and why people with zero experience want to go out by themselves, i'll never know.

[Cloud9blue]

Thanks guys for the advice, if a little harsher than I expected But again, it's always good to have some feedbacks.
I wasn't actually pushing the car this hard in other sessions, mostly just following the slower cars learning the track. But the video I posted is from the last session of the evening and I was the only one on the track in the beginner group, so was pushing the car a bit. The fact I can still see the flame imprints on the R-S3 tread after 4 sessions shows that I pretty gentle w/ the car most of the times.

Originally Posted by machiavelli9988

-heed The Hack's advice
I believe this is mostly due to the lens distortion from go pro. My seating position is very upright, with good amount of angle in my elbow that allows me to reach the top of the steering wheel w/ my wrist w/o moving my torso. I could perhaps move forward 1 inch more, but the problem is that my leg would start to cramp. Have done a few auto-x, where I had my seating position checked out by the instructors there.

-turn off the displays, you don't need to visual distraction
Will turn off the idrive next time, the phone app was actually quite useful since it was helping my learning the track (I have terrible short term memory).

-get a pair of nomex gloves, are you wearing thin-soled shoes?
Yep, thin soled and tightly laced. Does nomex glove actually help with the grip?

-loosen your death grip on the wheel - you're cutting blood flow and numbing feel
Will try to do that next time. Guess it is mostly a mental thing for novices like me.

-are you pulling down to turn the wheel? it's easier to pull a string than pull it
Both

-you are scrubbing speed through turns - if you are not going to trail brake, get all your braking done before turn in, neutral (maintenance) throttle to apex, accelerate out of apex
I believe I was actually trail braking in most of the corner by the later sessions. Brake pedals got a little unpredictable in the last session, so my entry speed was a bit off from time to time. But definitely need to smooth things out a bit more.

-lose the power mods - you've traded away reliability/endurance and you don't know how to drive fast yet. as you say, you are verging on limp mode inducing temps and it sucks to lose track time due to a mechanical
Thinking of running on stock map in the next event.

-smooth out your steering inputs - you're sawing at the wheel even on straights and really chucking the car into some turns, vision will help
I believe this is my biggest issue that I need to correct, got it from dealing with the numb and forgiving steering from growing up playing driving sims (still remember how much I loved playing Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed).

-quit fighting the car. the tires are squealing, it looks to be understeering - you're trying to finger fuck her when you should be dancing with her, it's a waltz
Yeah, definitely was tooling around in the lap I posted. Entry speed was too high for that off camber corner, so the car was understeering quite a bit.

-forget the line, there is no line - stop driving from cone to cone, worrying about being in the right place at the right time. try different ways around the track, see what works for you and your car. yeah yeah, there is a consensus "fastest" way around the track but you ain't out there for trophies or podiums at the moment so get comfortable being anywhere at any time.
Still learning the car. The next event has instructors available, should help me figure things out more.

-for heaven's sakes, go to a DE, get an instructor in the car. why clubs let people with zero experience out by themselves and why people with zero experience want to go out by themselves, i'll never know.
I actually have done track days on two wheels before, so have understeering of the track rules (flags, passing, etc.). The problem I had from doing bike track days is that the track gets quite crowded, particularly in the novice group. You have people that are really off pace and you have more experienced guys who ready to jump to the intermediate passing nearly everyone on the track. These "test-and-tune" nights have low attendance, especially in the beginner group, where only 3 cars showed up. Considering the low registration fee, it wasn't a bad way just to have some fun with the car and get to know the track a little better before doing a full DE.

[///Machiavelli]

My apologies if my previous post came off as brusk. I was simply firing off my stream of thoughts before starting my day. It is to be commended that you stepped up and took your car to the track. Everyone on the street, from soccer moms on down, think they've got the skills of Mario Andretti and don't need any advice. But you went out there, put your skills to the test and then posted a video of it and invited criticism. Kudos to you for doing that and having a positive attitude about what you heard. OK, enough hippie dippy feel good shit, let's get back to driving.

A few rebuttal points:

Don't get hung up on what Hack said about being upright, he's not talking about sitting at attention. Your seat should be reclined some otherwise you'll get back pain from putting all the pressure downwards onto the tailbone. Look at any fixed back racing seat, heck look at an f1 driving position they are practically laying back in a chaise lounger they're so reclined. What Hack is getting at (I think) is not to have the seat so far reclined like you're cruising the boulevard for slimmies. To his point, look at the 15sec mark in your video - your arm is at full extension just for a simple left hand turn. If the car were to snap oversteer for some reason you've compromised your ability to control the car via quick counter steering input because you have slower reaction time and diminished grip strength with your arm like that. I understand your point about legs being cramped but have you tried reclining the seat bottom or extending the steering wheel out?

I hope you weren't looking down at your iPhone track map while doing 100 mph down the straight away. That's a recipe for disaster if track conditions were to change unexpectedly like someone spinning or dropping fluids right in front of you. If you want to learn a track, I've found the best way for me is to watch YouTube videos of others navigating the course. Don't pay any attention to what line they are taking etc. because people do some stupid shit. Rather use it to memorize the sequence and severity of turns, then pull out a chair, pick up a book and hold it out in front like a steering wheel. Close your eyes and drive the track in your minds eye. Turn the wheel and work the imaginary pedals too. Innumerable studies in sport psychology can attest to the power of visualization, so don't argue it even if it feels silly. The best drivers in the world can mentally drive a track with a running stopwatch, and come within seconds of their actual lap times.

Besides added safety layers always being good, gloves can help in situations where your hands get sweaty and your grip on the wheel slips. With that death grip of yours and the heat at full blast your hands are bound to sweat. Speaking of your tight grip, it can help to try and stretch out your hands during straight aways to get the blood flowing again.

[Cloud9blue]

Machiavelli, it's all good. Appreciate the fact that at least you are trying to help out a newbie.

Think you might be right about the seating position. I am average height, just over 5'9", but most of it is in the legs, so there just isn't much I can do about it. Steering wheel is already extended all the way all and the seat bottom is at the lowest too. I might try moving forward another inch or half next time, see if that helps for track driving. But for daily driving, the current position is about as far as I can go w/o cramping up the legs on long drive.

I have no problem with remembering the straights, but for the earlier sessions the issue is that I often don't know what corners are coming up. So on those occasions, I take a quick peak at the screen when I am existing out of current corner. Not an ideal solution for sure, but my car is only car out there on the track for the later sessions, so the risk is minimized. Visualizing the track is hard from those youtube videos, that only thing that helped me getting know the track is by actually driving it, physically or virtually. But most driving sims don't really have these club tracks mapped in their games. Guess the only solution is getting an in-car instructor to show you the way, which is what I will be doing in the future.

Will look into the racing gloves, not a bad idea, seems like a relatively cheap investment in comparison to the 2-wheel counterparts. I have had an incident where I lose grip of the steering in auto-x, so I hold on to it pretty tight in the corner since then. Tight grip for sure, but not to point where I start to lose blood flow.

Anyway, lets hope my brake pads get here in time for full HPDE coming up next weekend, which is held by the local SCCA chapter (this time with instructors for the novice group). Will report back then!

[dinanm3atl]

Awesome! Now you have to be careful and not get addicted!