[RetroGamerJP]

I did some additional pulls this past week and finally got around to gathering the data. I've included the graphs and data logs from this past week in addition to my runs from the past. I tried to organize it as best as possible. Unfortunately I do not have incremental Dynos for every mod as it was added but I have labeled each run accordingly.

I'm hoping Shiv will provide his feedback on the results vs associated data logs. I have not been able to hit 14.5 - 15 psi, I have no boost leaks so perhaps there is something else working against me.

I pulled right on to the dyno after sever spirited runs on the way there... strapped it down and did two pulls @ 94% and a third @ 94% this time using the Water / Meth. The Water / Meth seemed to do a good job at fending off the Heat Soak and squeezed a bit more torque out as well.

Since I have the Water / Meth I decided to do three pulls at 100%... I adjusted the values and did a few rulls on the dyno in 3rd from 2000-7000 rpm to help it adapt but it may not have been enough for it to fully adapt.

Here are my performance mods for reference:
MSDS CAI Intake
Ultimate Racing Catted DPs
Ultimate Racing Exhaust
Spearco Intercooler Upgrade
Snow Performance Water / Meth Injection

Regardless of numbers I am extremely pleased wiht V2 how the car feels. It feels great, very strong and fast.
I'm definitely looking forward to a new map/s to make better use of the DPs and CAI.

Let me know what you guys think, Shiv please chime in as well...

[Serjames]

Where should max Hp be coming in, on first impressions looking at your boost and the dyno graphs it looks like they are tepering ?

SJ

[RetroGamerJP]

?

[Sniz]

on the last dyno w/ datalog.....you can see the boost tapering off at around 5k+ and the resulting drop in tq at the high rpms.

Looks like you are not holding the boost all the way out.

[M&M]

How much Meth you running, and how much you spraying up top?

[E90ice]

I was expecting more than 367hwp, especially with all those mods. but they say you have to have special tunes/maps for DP's and Meth.

[M&M]

I think we saw how much Shiv gained when he tuned his car for the DP's. He drove out of the dyno session with a whole heap more power than he drove in with.

BTW, great numbers anyway. Well done.

[AWD Addict]

Awesome numbers. 400+tq is crazy!

[djrobroe]

i was gonna say its kinda low... but thats almost a 100 whp change... that's pretty crazy...

[e90AW335i]

+97 rwhp, +145 rwtrq

Congrats....

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

Awesome numbers. 400+tq is crazy!

I'd like to feel that power! It would be nicer if that 418 lb ft was a more gradual transition. That looks to be a pretty big bump in his tq which quickly goes down under 400 only a few hundred rpms later. Still some crazy power even if you ignore the bump at 3800rpms.

well done, can't wait to see what your car will do w/ Shiv's new dp map when its released.

[garyhgaryh]

Congrats John, you've been busy I see.

[NPDAN]

Great numbers man... I bet you'll see all the power your looking for though once Shiv releases some of your mod specific maps. Nevertheless, great numbers !!!

[RetroGamerJP]

Originally Posted by Sniz

I'd like to feel that power! It would be nicer if that 418 lb ft was a more gradual transition. That looks to be a pretty big bump in his tq which quickly goes down under 400 only a few hundred rpms later. Still some crazy power even if you ignore the bump at 3800rpms.

well done, can't wait to see what your car will do w/ Shiv's new dp map when its released.

Thank you... on the raod it drives great and is allot of fun... if a new map can get me more HP then I'm all for it but if I'm topped out I will still enjoy.

[RetroGamerJP]

Originally Posted by garyhgaryh

Congrats John, you've been busy I see.

Thanks Gary... you know how it is... cant leave well enough alone.

[OpenFlash]

Hi jp335i
Yeah! You have been busy. I love the way you documented all this. Few few people do that and it's great to see

I'll throw my 2 bits in. First a few comments with regards to your mods:

Correction factor-- Can you post up STD correction? It seems to be the standard on this forum. Nothing is wrong with SAE but we should compare apples to apples. All the power numbers will go up a bit. Even the stock run.

Catted Downpipes-- I'm still not sure how much power these are worth over the stock catted downpipes. Certainly nothing like going catless. Without having tested them, I'd be surprised if they were worth more than 5-10whp. Then again, my catless downpipes really weren't much more than that until I tuned the map accordingly. And then they picked up 25whp peak and nearly 70whp at redline! I wouldn't expect that with catted downpipes but it is certainly something we want to (and will) test out ourselves.

Meth/water injection-- Coming from the EVO world, this is something that I have a lot of experience with. Just not in BMW applications yet. But in EVOs, meth/water mixes only really helped with power when we ran a lot more meth than water (like 75/25). And it REALLY helped when we ran straight meth. Of course, all this specific tuning as just injecting it will make it run a lot richer. To take advantage of this injection, you'd have to adjust the AFR target as well as add some advance. This is especially the case if you have any water in your injection mixture because its presence is actually contributing to power loss (but meth to power gain). On the dyno, you will see some improvements in run to run consistency by virtue of its cooling effects. But, on a dyno, we are barely cooling the car anyway because even a big intercooler fan doesn't replicate the kind of cooling effects you'd get on the road at even just 30mph, let alone 70mph. Still, meth/water injection is something that we will eventually play with. The good thing about your particular approach is that you are using it for a cooling agent, not necessarily a power adder. This is safe just in case you get a plugged jet or any other injection system failure.

Intercooler-- Again, this is another product that we will be testing. In my experience, power gains afforded by intercoolers can be a little misleading. Not intentionally but just by the nature of dyno tuning. This goes back to the whole inadequate cooling issues that we see on dynos. Without real 60+mph winds going through the IC, an IC will not operate at peak efficiency. This means that it will not properly transfer heat from the intake charge to the fins, to the ambient air. But not all is lost, even without adequate airflow, the intercooler still has mass. And the heavier it is, the more heat it can steal from the intake charge. In some cases (where airflow is low enough), the stock intercooler will operate at just 50% cooling efficiency (as opposed to the usual 80+% it operates in on the road). Whereas a bigger (ie, heavier) IC will still operate at an effective 80% just do to its greater thermal mass. On the dyno, in this case, you will see a huge power differential, esp at high RPM where the heat rejection differential is huge. Of course, without enough airflow, all this cooling ability is temporary. Once either IC absorbs as much heat as it can (through poor airflow and limited cooldown time, it becomes "heat soaked" at which point you are relying completely upon the ability of the core to shed heat from the charge. So what we sometimes end up seeing are 'unfair' dyno tests between a stock intercooler and an upgraded one. Yes, the upgraded one made more power on the dyno where it enjoyed its extra thermal mass. But, on the road, with proper airflow, this advantage doesn't exist. At which point, you are relying on its better efficiency and reduced pressure drop. Which can be substantial in some cases. I'm just not sure that is the case in the BMW when we are only talking 400-450bhp and a pretty large, well-designed stock intercooler to begin with. But again, we will see soon enough. It's just hard to keep up with you guys while giving every level of upgrade a fair shot!

Boost Level/Taper-- It's perfectly normal to see lower boost pressure with the presence of additional cooling mods. The intercooler, itself, will reduce the boost target if it cools the charge better. Same with the water/meth injection. Especially if it is sprayed upstream of the TMAP sensor. The cooler the air charge, the lower the boost. Of course, one can run more boost when the air charge is cooler (since the engine is less knock prone). But we are dealing with a fuel system limitation right around the 400whp level. It's not an issue when we are running race gas (since the extra octane allows us to run leaner). But on pump gas, I wanted to make sure no one runs into this by accident. This is another reason that taper is in there. Yes, you can get rid of a lot of it by ramping the user TQ values, at higher rpm, upwards. But please do not do this until we have additional safety measures in there. At this point, to play it safe, the max power I'd like to see anyone make on straight pump gas (with no additional meth injection) is 380whp. On race gas, I'd like to stay under 410whp. Both are 10-20whp shy from what I consider to be the fuel system limitation. At least what I saw on my car. I'd like to custom tune a few cars just to be sure. This will happen in time.

Conclusions--- You're runs look great! It's a bit too early to have maps specifically made for your level of mods right now. But I'm happy that you are able to run the baseline map with no real issues. The little torque bump you get at 3800rpm is typical given all your free-flow mods. That will be gone with a mod specific map. For the time being, you can get rid of it by just dropping the User Tq value at 3500rpm by 3-4%.

Cheers and great job!
Shiv

[M&M]

Great post Shiv. That's the reason I asked how much Meth you running. I rate run like 80/20 Meth and crank the gain at high rpm. But hey, lay off the Nitromethane for now.

[E90ice]

Shiv, what do you think is the SAFE limit for the factory fuel system? 450whp?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by E90ice

Shiv, what do you think is the SAFE limit for the factory fuel system? 450whp?

On pump gas, around 390-400whp.
On race gas, around 420-430whp (because you could safely run leaner with the extra octane).

This has only been tested on my car, however, Need to test more cars before we can assume that these limits are shared by all

Shiv

[LambOfGod]

Boost Level/Taper-- It's perfectly normal to see lower boost pressure with the presence of additional cooling mods. The intercooler, itself, will reduce the boost target if it cools the charge better. Same with the water/meth injection. Especially if it is sprayed upstream of the TMAP sensor. The cooler the air charge, the lower the boost. Of course, one can run more boost when the air charge is cooler (since the engine is less knock prone). But we are dealing with a fuel system limitation right around the 400whp level. It's not an issue when we are running race gas (since the extra octane allows us to run leaner). But on pump gas, I wanted to make sure no one runs into this by accident. This is another reason that taper is in there. Yes, you can get rid of a lot of it by ramping the user TQ values, at higher rpm, upwards. But please do not do this until we have additional safety measures in there. At this point, to play it safe, the max power I'd like to see anyone make on straight pump gas (with no additional meth injection) is 380whp. On race gas, I'd like to stay under 410whp. Both are 10-20whp shy from what I consider to be the fuel system limitation. At least what I saw on my car. I'd like to custom tune a few cars just to be sure. This will happen in time.

[RetroGamerJP]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi jp335i
Yeah! You have been busy. I love the way you documented all this. Few few people do that and it's great to see

I'll throw my 2 bits in. First a few comments with regards to your mods:

Correction factor-- Can you post up STD correction? It seems to be the standard on this forum. Nothing is wrong with SAE but we should compare apples to apples. All the power numbers will go up a bit. Even the stock run.

Catted Downpipes-- I'm still not sure how much power these are worth over the stock catted downpipes. Certainly nothing like going catless. Without having tested them, I'd be surprised if they were worth more than 5-10whp. Then again, my catless downpipes really weren't much more than that until I tuned the map accordingly. And then they picked up 25whp peak and nearly 70whp at redline! I wouldn't expect that with catted downpipes but it is certainly something we want to (and will) test out ourselves.

Meth/water injection-- Coming from the EVO world, this is something that I have a lot of experience with. Just not in BMW applications yet. But in EVOs, meth/water mixes only really helped with power when we ran a lot more meth than water (like 75/25). And it REALLY helped when we ran straight meth. Of course, all this specific tuning as just injecting it will make it run a lot richer. To take advantage of this injection, you'd have to adjust the AFR target as well as add some advance. This is especially the case if you have any water in your injection mixture because its presence is actually contributing to power loss (but meth to power gain). On the dyno, you will see some improvements in run to run consistency by virtue of its cooling effects. But, on a dyno, we are barely cooling the car anyway because even a big intercooler fan doesn't replicate the kind of cooling effects you'd get on the road at even just 30mph, let alone 70mph. Still, meth/water injection is something that we will eventually play with. The good thing about your particular approach is that you are using it for a cooling agent, not necessarily a power adder. This is safe just in case you get a plugged jet or any other injection system failure.

Intercooler-- Again, this is another product that we will be testing. In my experience, power gains afforded by intercoolers can be a little misleading. Not intentionally but just by the nature of dyno tuning. This goes back to the whole inadequate cooling issues that we see on dynos. Without real 60+mph winds going through the IC, an IC will not operate at peak efficiency. This means that it will not properly transfer heat from the intake charge to the fins, to the ambient air. But not all is lost, even without adequate airflow, the intercooler still has mass. And the heavier it is, the more heat it can steal from the intake charge. In some cases (where airflow is low enough), the stock intercooler will operate at just 50% cooling efficiency (as opposed to the usual 80+% it operates in on the road). Whereas a bigger (ie, heavier) IC will still operate at an effective 80% just do to its greater thermal mass. On the dyno, in this case, you will see a huge power differential, esp at high RPM where the heat rejection differential is huge. Of course, without enough airflow, all this cooling ability is temporary. Once either IC absorbs as much heat as it can (through poor airflow and limited cooldown time, it becomes "heat soaked" at which point you are relying completely upon the ability of the core to shed heat from the charge. So what we sometimes end up seeing are 'unfair' dyno tests between a stock intercooler and an upgraded one. Yes, the upgraded one made more power on the dyno where it enjoyed its extra thermal mass. But, on the road, with proper airflow, this advantage doesn't exist. At which point, you are relying on its better efficiency and reduced pressure drop. Which can be substantial in some cases. I'm just not sure that is the case in the BMW when we are only talking 400-450bhp and a pretty large, well-designed stock intercooler to begin with. But again, we will see soon enough. It's just hard to keep up with you guys while giving every level of upgrade a fair shot!

Boost Level/Taper-- It's perfectly normal to see lower boost pressure with the presence of additional cooling mods. The intercooler, itself, will reduce the boost target if it cools the charge better. Same with the water/meth injection. Especially if it is sprayed upstream of the TMAP sensor. The cooler the air charge, the lower the boost. Of course, one can run more boost when the air charge is cooler (since the engine is less knock prone). But we are dealing with a fuel system limitation right around the 400whp level. It's not an issue when we are running race gas (since the extra octane allows us to run leaner). But on pump gas, I wanted to make sure no one runs into this by accident. This is another reason that taper is in there. Yes, you can get rid of a lot of it by ramping the user TQ values, at higher rpm, upwards. But please do not do this until we have additional safety measures in there. At this point, to play it safe, the max power I'd like to see anyone make on straight pump gas (with no additional meth injection) is 380whp. On race gas, I'd like to stay under 410whp. Both are 10-20whp shy from what I consider to be the fuel system limitation. At least what I saw on my car. I'd like to custom tune a few cars just to be sure. This will happen in time.

Conclusions--- You're runs look great! It's a bit too early to have maps specifically made for your level of mods right now. But I'm happy that you are able to run the baseline map with no real issues. The little torque bump you get at 3800rpm is typical given all your free-flow mods. That will be gone with a mod specific map. For the time being, you can get rid of it by just dropping the User Tq value at 3500rpm by 3-4%.

Cheers and great job!
Shiv

Shiv,
Thank you very much for your detailed response and explanation. I really do appreciate you taking the time. This is extremely helpful information to us all.

I will plot the same graphs Uncorrected and post them as well.

Looking forward to seeing what's next from Vishnu...

Thanks again
-John

[Mr. 5]

Wow!
That water meth makes that torque curve spike like crazy!