[jonas]

Hey guys, I'm still new to the N54 platform, and I'm trying to read as much as I can, but one thing still confuses me immensely. I come from the diesel truck scene, where a turbo swap is very common. So, I'm confused why companies aren't selling single turbo applications for these cars, along with separate manifolds, and fittings to allow any turbo that fits a T3/T4 pedestal to be applied to these cars. I understand the turbos I'm used to playing with are larger than what we run on the N54, but I also know there's tons of options for turbos. Surely I'm not the only one looking for custom turbo solutions that isn't mandated by a hefty $8k starting price tag. Aside from the obvious semantics of spool time and turbo efficiency ranges, I just don't understand why more people aren't playing with different compressor/turbo combos to see what can happen. Maybe the addition of single turbo options is just too new? Or maybe I'm not well read enough on this engine, and I'm missing obvious answers?

[stanlalee]

Don't worry once these cars are under $10k used you'll see any old turbos getting thrown on. Turbo flanges (pedestal lol) are so 2001, V-band actually gives you way more options. At this point people still want properly sized turbos instead of an old T4 turbo they had lying around. That day is coming but these cars are still expensive to be fooling around like that with. You already can get 400whp for next to nothing. If you want more right now it cost or get a DSM and have an 11 second car for $5000 including the car (had 3 of em)

[jonas]

Originally Posted by stanlalee

Don't worry once these cars are under $10k used you'll see any old turbos getting thrown on. Turbo flanges (pedestal lol) are so 2001, V-band actually gives you way more options. At this point people still want properly sized turbos instead of an old T4 turbo they had lying around. That day is coming but these cars are still expensive to be fooling around like that with. You already can get 400whp for next to nothing. If you want more right now it cost or get a DSM and have an 11 second car for $5000 including the car (had 3 of em)

I guess I'll just have to wait until then? I just see such a huge potential for power and market that isn't being tapped...

[Dave W.]

The main limitation is a lack of underhood space.
FFTec offers a hot parts kit, which are the main parts of a turbo kit, just the parts that are difficult for the average home mechanic to build themselves. It's offered so you can choose your own turbo as long as it fits. It still opens up the options for anything that comes with an S compressor cover, which is up to a 68mm turbo.

[jonas]

Thanks Dave! I'll actually be looking into that!! opens up a whole set of options for me.

[Aashenfox]

Another part of it may be that most of our cars are AT, which is programmed relative to the powerband that our cars have stock (small twin turbos, instant spool, no lag), so gear changes are quick to keep consumption down. In normal D mode with a big Garrett, I doubt you'd ever see boost without an accompanying tranny map. Even in DS sport mode the shifts wouldn't be ideal, you'd have to use the paddles if you have em, which many people just won't do. The 6MT crowd is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller, on a relatively rare platform (N54), its a small potential consumer base.

Just thinking out loud, I'm not a real experienced tuner...

[4doorbmwpower]

real question to start as accurate and honest of an exchange of information as possible would be... how much money do you have to spend. From there I can tell you quite the options a lot currently no one really has done. I will have a thread starting about it soon. But SINGLE isnt the "best route" just twins havent been mastered yet, until now.

[4doorbmwpower]

they are also 2x more expensive since you have two of everything, however BMW designed this engine originally to be used with turbos, the slower "turbo'less" version is actually a much muchhhhh more inefficient engine. see on the SISTER cars in the 3 series.

[boost junkie]

Twins are still a great option as they are making over 600whp now on stock frames and still spool very fast. Fueling is more of a problem than the actual turbo selection.

[4doorbmwpower]

well I personally am not talking about stock twins.

[4doorbmwpower]

I have all "problems" worked out with the car. No spooling issues I will be able to turn up around 800hp and have IMMEDIATE boost just like stock. When done right twins are still the way to go, even upgraded. As for fueling, that is also figured out. I will open my build thread to everyone here soon! just subscribe to see the new fastest N54.

[pobudz]

In my opinion, it's a support issue as to why vendors are building complete solutions and why the DIYers are getting left out.

Let's say I make a manifold... just the manifold. People buy a ton of them, I'm rolling in dough. It's well built, blah, blah, blah. Would you want to deal with all the idiots and assholes on this forum when they start slapping ebay turbos, sweatshop downpipes on and then the DIY tuners when they come to you with fitment and tuning problems?

Having talked with Jake @ MOTIV and Steve @ Fuel-IT... they have a hard enough job dealing with properly made kits and people's general lack of knowledge when it comes to building high power solutions. Jake would probably want to hang himself if he had to work with John Doe and his eBay turbos with his properly done manifold.

Also... to be brutally honest... if you aren't willing to pay $8k for a turbo solution you are out of your damn mind. Talk to anyone that has been doing this for a while on any platform, they'll tell you to expect to spend $10-12k out the door. If you think you can do it cheaper, try. When your motor blows up or you don't make the power your peers are making/that you wanted to make... don't cry about how bad the product is.

[4doorbmwpower]

^ nicely... put....

[pobudz]

Originally Posted by 4doorbmwpower

^ nicely... put....

For clarification I'm certainly not speaking on behalf of the vendors or that this is based off anything that they have said, I'm just saying if it were me and that this is my opinion.

Nor am I calling everyone on this forum an asshole... but lately I've been seeing a lot of bullshit threads and posts that make me lose all respect for this forum as a whole. It is unfortunate that a few can ruin it for everyone (Shiv and Cobb anyone?).

[135Pats]

Originally Posted by pobudz

In my opinion, it's a support issue as to why vendors are building complete solutions and why the DIYers are getting left out.

Let's say I make a manifold... just the manifold. People buy a ton of them, I'm rolling in dough. It's well built, blah, blah, blah. Would you want to deal with all the idiots and assholes on this forum when they start slapping ebay turbos, sweatshop downpipes on and then the DIY tuners when they come to you with fitment and tuning problems?

Having talked with Jake @ MOTIV and Steve @ Fuel-IT... they have a hard enough job dealing with properly made kits and people's general lack of knowledge when it comes to building high power solutions. Jake would probably want to hang himself if he had to work with John Doe and his eBay turbos with his properly done manifold.

Also... to be brutally honest... if you aren't willing to pay $8k for a turbo solution you are out of your damn mind. Talk to anyone that has been doing this for a while on any platform, they'll tell you to expect to spend $10-12k out the door. If you think you can do it cheaper, try. When your motor blows up or you don't make the power your peers are making/that you wanted to make... don't cry about how bad the product is.

Well put.

So much harder to make real power than it seems. Goes far beyond swiping the credit card and producing a manifold.

[pobudz]

Originally Posted by 135Pats

Well put.

So much harder to make real power than it seems. Goes far beyond swiping the credit card and producing a manifold.

When people respond to the idea of the MOTIV kit with "omg it costs so much money" I wish they realized how much MORE money you would spend doing something else... AND how much money on top of the MOTIV kit I still have to spend to do everything right. In the end... it all equals out to about the same. I'm talking from experience.

In addition to any kit you buy... there is a lot more you need to think about.

Dyno time... $100-120/hr. I've spent 8 solid hours on the dyno with Jake thus far prepping for local events.

My time... how much is my time worth? To my girlfriend, it is not something that can be measured in dollars. Spending a little extra to do less work is okay with me.

Random fittings and components. When you decide that using multiple T fittings is obnoxious, you'll start looking for vacuum blocks. When you want to test your MAC solenoid/Wastegates you'll start looking for a manual boost controller and a smoke tester.

Shop time... $75-120/hr on top of whatever you purchased.

Tuning time... unless you trust yourself, thats another $250-500.

More power means more problems. You will find that your FMIC you bought is no longer big enough. Your cooling system is no longer powerful enough. Your exhaust is too loud/short/droning. You tried putting down 700whp and didn't have a budget set aside for axles, driveshaft, sticky tires, brakes, wheels, fuel, etc. Oh, they don't make a FMIC for this much horsepower? There goes another $1200 for a custom fab FMIC.

TL;DR People tend to be short sighted and not account for everything that goes into building a car. Those same people are the type that pull out instead of using condoms and wonder why they have 4 kids and no money for car parts.

[Nonecure]

Good vent! Do you feel better now?

[pobudz]

Originally Posted by Nonecure

Good vent! Do you feel better now?

More of a reality check than a vent. I have nothing to vent about, my car works.

[4doorbmwpower]

and double that figure to properly do twins.

[fastgti69]

Pay2Play.

[Torgus]

wow the misinformation here is insane...

[jonas]

I think my original post was taken wrong. If you want to see absolute ignorance on turbos and working configurations, please look through Cummins forums. I dare say, having been around turbo cars for the better part of five years now, I have a fairly concrete understanding of what it takes to make power. To assume that I don't, because I have not built my car to your current standing, is wrong. I've built two 700hp 12v cummins, a 500hp powerstroke, and helped build numerous other trucks. I'm not in any way whining, or suggesting the price is too high. You have greatly misunderstood me. I was asking why there weren't other options being explored. The idea that buying a kit that's been thoroughly researched, and tested is too expensive is not what I meant. I'm terribly sorry for the misunderstanding..