[jonas]

Ok, so I see a lot of guys making huge power on the Cobb AP, or a combination of JB4 and Cobb AP. So my question is whats stopping people from only using the JB4? Why does the Cobb stack on the JB4? Are there limitations, is there just not support for it, or whats going on? Maybe, as usual, I'm not just not doing enough research/reading. Spin me up guys! I'm trying to figure out how to combination of JB4 and Cobb works, or why Cobb is being used?

By the way, when I say huge power, I'm talking into the 650+ HP range...

[mike@x-ph.com]

out of the box JB4 gives you more gains than Cobb.
When you are reaching for 650 whp, you need a lot of E85 and stage 3 turbos.
When you are add a lot of E85, you need a flash tune to change fuel scalar and adjust ignition and AFR.

[Bme30]

Jb4 make big power too. Most people running jb4 for big numbers use a back end flash too.
I run jb4 with a fftec single turbo (6466) and it runs great!

[924er]

I bought Cobb because I never liked the idea of piggybacks although jb4 can be used on Cobb. I wanted something plug and play. I think jb4 is faster compared to the Cobb maps but protuning is another story

I think the best tune is a custom tune that fits your car personally no matter what

[jayzF30]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

out of the box JB4 gives you more gains than Cobb.
When you are reaching for 650 whp, you need a lot of E85 and stage 3 turbos.
When you are add a lot of E85, you need a flash tune to change fuel scalar and adjust ignition and AFR.

This isn't true. It was already proven that off the shelf pump maps from Cobb make more power than the JB4 on its own. If you're adding a backend flash then its not a JB4 on its own anymore. Also it knocks way more than any Cobb off the shelf map since JB isn't a complete tune and doesn't have timing control. I had it, ran it for a while and then went Cobb with a protune.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by jazze90

This isn't true. It was already proven that off the shelf pump maps from Cobb make more power than the JB4 on its own. If you're adding a backend flash then its not a JB4 on its own anymore. Also it knocks way more than any Cobb off the shelf map since JB isn't a complete tune and doesn't have timing control. I had it, ran it for a while and then went Cobb with a protune.

Proven by who ? It is common knowledge that JB4 off the shelf makes more than Cobb off the shelf, Even Cobb admits to their maps off the shelf being really conservative. Everything else you said has nothing to do with OP's questions so im just going to ignore it in an effort of not derailing this thread and turning it to a Cobb vs JB4 war

[cotmfk]

Originally Posted by jazze90

This isn't true. It was already proven that off the shelf pump maps from Cobb make more power than the JB4 on its own. If you're adding a backend flash then its not a JB4 on its own anymore. Also it knocks way more than any Cobb off the shelf map since JB isn't a complete tune and doesn't have timing control. I had it, ran it for a while and then went Cobb with a protune.

I think you need to read more about JB4 before commenting on what it can/can't do.

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Proven by who ? It is common knowledge that JB4 off the shelf makes more than Cobb off the shelf, Even Cobb admits to their maps off the shelf being really conservative. Everything else you said has nothing to do with OP's questions so im just going to ignore it in an effort of not derailing this thread and turning it to a Cobb vs JB4 war

You showed an incredible amount of restraint here. Bravo.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by cotmfk

You showed an incredible amount of restraint here. Bravo.

Thank you

[Bme30]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Proven by who ? It is common knowledge that JB4 off the shelf makes more than Cobb off the shelf, Even Cobb admits to their maps off the shelf being really conservative. Everything else you said has nothing to do with OP's questions so im just going to ignore it in an effort of not derailing this thread and turning it to a Cobb vs JB4 war

+1 I'm with mike on this one!

[Bme30]

Jonas,

So a little research will go a long way here. With that being said you need to determine what your end goal is and or your tuning requirements will be. Cobb is removable through the obd II port and the jb4 through the ecu.
Now with that being said the both are great products and both will yield similar results with the correct components. You just need to determine what works for you. Map switching? Dealer visits? Etc... So do a quick google search and I'm sure you will find hours of good reading material to assist you in the decision.
Good luck.

[jayzF30]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Proven by who ? It is common knowledge that JB4 off the shelf makes more than Cobb off the shelf, Even Cobb admits to their maps off the shelf being really conservative. Everything else you said has nothing to do with OP's questions so im just going to ignore it in an effort of not derailing this thread and turning it to a Cobb vs JB4 war

Dude LOL so many people have tried JB4 map 1 and 2 pump maps with FBO mods and then tried Cobb's off the shelf maps and got more power on an actual dyno and got a MUCH MUCH smoother running tune. Do yourself a favor and actually put your car on the dyno and get numbers for both if you actually have an N54. I've done this before when I switched as I needed details for myself. A flash tune will always be a better way of tuning a car than a piggyback and that has nothing to do with if its an N54 or any other motor. Flash tuning always ends up making more power and with OEM drivability BECAUSE IT ALLOWS FOR FULL CONTROL of EVERYTHING in the tune. You're the one derailing this thread as you're clearly a vendor and have some products to push so give me a break please and let's get some members talking here instead of vendors.

[Bme30]

Originally Posted by jazze90

Dude LOL so many people have tried JB4 map 1 and 2 pump maps with FBO mods and then tried Cobb's off the shelf maps and got more power on an actual dyno and got a MUCH MUCH smoother running tune. Do yourself a favor and actually put your car on the dyno and get numbers for both if you actually have an N54. I've done this before when I switched as I needed details for myself. A flash tune will always be a better way of tuning a car than a piggyback and that has nothing to do with if its an N54 or any other motor. Flash tuning always ends up making more power and with OEM drivability BECAUSE IT ALLOWS FOR FULL CONTROL of EVERYTHING in the tune. You're the one derailing this thread as you're clearly a vendor and have some products to push so give me a break please and let's get some members talking here instead of vendors.

I'm not a vendor, and I made 450/510 wheel with e85. Fbo and my jb4 with backed flash Just saying and that was at 10* timing.
Before backed flash I made 420/490ish wheel.

[brewnami]

Originally Posted by jazze90

Dude LOL so many people have tried JB4 map 1 and 2 pump maps with FBO mods and then tried Cobb's off the shelf maps and got more power on an actual dyno and got a MUCH MUCH smoother running tune. Do yourself a favor and actually put your car on the dyno and get numbers for both if you actually have an N54. I've done this before when I switched as I needed details for myself. A flash tune will always be a better way of tuning a car than a piggyback and that has nothing to do with if its an N54 or any other motor. Flash tuning always ends up making more power and with OEM drivability BECAUSE IT ALLOWS FOR FULL CONTROL of EVERYTHING in the tune. You're the one derailing this thread as you're clearly a vendor and have some products to push so give me a break please and let's get some members talking here instead of vendors.

426/463 at the wheels with JB4 map 5, downpipes and dual come intake with 5 gallons of E85. No back end flash, nothing else. I would love to see Dyno slips of a Cobb car (stock maps) with just downpipes, DCI and E85 make more than that.

[LMT0286]

Originally Posted by brewnami

426/463 at the wheels with JB4 map 5, downpipes and dual come intake with 5 gallons of E85. No back end flash, nothing else. I would love to see Dyno slips of a Cobb car (stock maps) with just downpipes, DCI and E85 make more than that.

Jb4 is awesome.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

I think the problem is there isn't just a one size fits all answer to the question.

Some people still use JB4 cause they had it previously.

Some people had a Cobb first but found some limitations and added a JB4 (Typically for boost control).

Note* I should add that as a recently it appears JB4 is not necessarily needed for most boost control issues anymore as new found areas of flash tuning have produced solution to that old problem.

Some people had JB4 but found some limitations and needed Cobb or other flashing devices for the back end flash (Typically fueling).

There of course is always with any tune in use that "it works good enough" and that nobody wants to start changing this around.

If it's a question of off the shelf maps, JB4 Map 1 VS Cobb Stage 1 for stock vehicle then I think the debate is negligble. Some show proof of Cobb being a bit faster others say JB4 was a bit faster. People have dyno's showing both favoring the other. There are too many exterior conditions that follow, elevation, sea level humidity, octane, heat soak ETC.

The reality is for an-otherwise stock vehicle you can only make so much power so there really isnt any magic to either tune.

The best question one should ask in regards to tunes is to find out first what goals you have for power.

At that point some of us here may be able to tell you the best route to go with.

[jonas]

So, essentially, a jb4 with a back end flash can do the timing adjustments needed to get into custom turbo setups? I'm just trying to figure out if I need to sell my jb4 and foot the money for a Cobb before I get too deep into the car...

Just to clarify, I intend to be chasing north of 600 HP. I've done a ton of reading, and went with the jb4 for my personal preference. But my plans include switching to single turbo, and I know that will complicate things. I just want to know if the jb4 is going to be limited in that aspect, or if I'll need to explore other options. I'm sorry if my question want phrased right. I am just looking to make sure that I'm on the right track as of now, or if I need to change. Because I see guys with all different combinations, so I understand the "it works, don't change it" setup.

[boost junkie]

Definitely don't sell it for a Cobb since you're going to have the same functionality with the MHD flasher for a fraction of the cost. Terry is going to support the MHD flasher for backend flashes as well.

Also if you're wanting to run more than 21psi then a piggyback is going to be needed anyway..

[Bme30]

Originally Posted by jonas

So, essentially, a jb4 with a back end flash can do the timing adjustments needed to get into custom turbo setups? I'm just trying to figure out if I need to sell my jb4 and foot the money for a Cobb before I get too deep into the car...

Just to clarify, I intend to be chasing north of 600 HP. I've done a ton of reading, and went with the jb4 for my personal preference. But my plans include switching to single turbo, and I know that will complicate things. I just want to know if the jb4 is going to be limited in that aspect, or if I'll need to explore other options. I'm sorry if my question want phrased right. I am just looking to make sure that I'm on the right track as of now, or if I need to change. Because I see guys with all different combinations, so I understand the "it works, don't change it" setup.

I'm glad you said this (single turbo)....as a matter of fact I'm currently single turbo (fftec 900 kit). The car performed flawlessly!! Love it and at 21psi and 12* timing with some e85! Stick with the jb4!!!

[jonas]

Originally Posted by Bme30

I'm glad you said this (single turbo)....as a matter of fact I'm currently single turbo (fftec 900 kit). The car performed flawlessly!! Love it and at 21psi and 12* timing with some e85! Stick with the jb4!!!

This is fantastic news! I just want to get into the 600 hp range, with room to grow! I'm glad you mentioned that, since that was the kit I was leaning towards as well!

[jonas]

Originally Posted by boost junkie

Definitely don't sell it for a Cobb since you're going to have the same functionality with the MHD flasher for a fraction of the cost. Terry is going to support the MHD flasher for backend flashes as well.

Also if you're wanting to run more than 21psi then a piggyback is going to be needed anyway..

Great! I had skimmed the MHD thread, but not read into it. I'll certainly be looking into that!!

[Bme30]

Originally Posted by jonas

This is fantastic news! I just want to get into the 600 hp range, with room to grow! I'm glad you mentioned that, since that was the kit I was leaning towards as well!

very happy with my kit and the jb4!!!

[proTUNING Freaks]

Speaking from the tuning point of view both piggybacks such as JB4 and flash tunes such as Cobb/MHD/BBflash certainly have their place in the tuning game on this platform.

We have always been proponents of flash tuning as opposed to piggybacks as it allows for direct and very fine grained control over ignition timing, fueling, boost, VANOS, various temperature compensation tables, etc. However, having said that, flash tuning does have its limitations as well when it comes to tuning for boost past the OEM TMAP sensor which is an issue when going with aftermarket turbos that flow well at higher pressure differentials than 21psi. On the piggyback side unless you're running high octane you really have to get a backend flash to do things safely as you simply can't be raising boost without attention to ignition timing, fuel/fuel scalars when it comes to for instance running high concentration of E85 without meth.

There are arguments on both sides and there is really no one single best tool for the job yet on this platform. Full standalone would be the ultimate setup but nothing has come to the market yet that could control the OEM Piezo fuel injectors. Motec apparently has been made to work by boring the head and adding N55 injectors that are controllable by that standalone but for most people that is far outside the budget they're ready to invest in.

OP, given your power goals you'll need both a flash on the DME side and an external form of boost control and you can use your JB4 for that along with other features it provides and we certainly wouldn't advise selling it unless you're planning to go a different route on external boost control such as a standalone running in parallel with the DME.