[kgroschi]

Hi guys,

so as some of you know, I was invited to Tenerife to drive the new Porsche Carrera (991.2). Here is a little summary of my thoughts about the car. Please leave a thumbs up or a comment on youtube enjoy!

[E92LNGCGY]

Did you test one with the sport exhaust? Looks like the one you have is just the regular exhaust and you are right it doesn't sound as nice as the NA motor.

However just from watching your video it seems mid range pull/acceleration is quite a bit better. Throttle response seems very good.

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by E92LNGCGY

Did you test one with the sport exhaust? Looks like the one you have is just the regular exhaust and you are right it doesn't sound as nice as the NA motor.

However just from watching your video it seems mid range pull/acceleration is quite a bit better. Throttle response seems very good.

Yes, yes and yes

I also tested the sports exhaust one and it doesn't sound much better. Just the burble when lifting off the throttle seems a bit more extreme, that's it.

But yes, mid range pull is like never seen before on a Carrera (obviously thanks to the extra torque), and the throttle response is also very good.

[E92LNGCGY]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

Yes, yes and yes

I also tested the sports exhaust one and it doesn't sound much better. Just the burble when lifting off the throttle seems a bit more extreme, that's it.

But yes, mid range pull is like never seen before on a Carrera (obviously thanks to the extra torque), and the throttle response is also very good.

That is disappointing to hear about sport exhaust. I was hoping it would be better although we all know it won't sound anything like NA.

[Blksnowflake]

sound blahblahblah, it'll still sell like hotcakes. it's a faster more responsive car, isn't that more important than sound alone...

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

sound blahblahblah, it'll still sell like hotcakes. it's a faster more responsive car, isn't that more important than sound alone...

And that's the problem. It will of course sell (even all the polls I have seen say people prefer the old 991.1) because it's the new Carrera. It can do everything better. It's the perfect commuter car. Perfect car to sit in traffic anywhere around the world. Perfect car to drive up a nice canyon road on a weekend. The perfect car to buy your wife who doesn't even know what these weird flappy thingys behind the wheel are... But of course, sound is not EVERYTHING (but to me it's 80% lol).

Another thing is that so many people lease cars nowadays, so they have to get the new one no matter what.

Sorry to say, but if you think a faster car is a better car!? then you are not in the "enthusiast" category, at least in my opinion. I have driven so many cars in my young life and I can tell you, speed isn't worth much when it comes to driving pleasure and fun. At least not to me. I have accelerated many times in 2.8 seconds to 60 mph, however, a GT3 that takes .7 longer is much more fun than any of these 2.8 second cars I have been in.

Besides, what do you mean it is more responsive? Because it isn't. It's turbo charged, so it's definitely less responsive than a N/A engine. Maybe you mean that low end torque and that acceleration from down under?

I mean honestly, everybody is entitled to their opinion, I can just speak for myself after growing up with so many fast test cars, and having had the chance to drive so many fast cars myself, to me, just acceleration doesn't mean much. I rather drive a E90 M3 with a nice N/A V8 than a turbo Carrera S... no doubt about it. But again, that's MY OPINION.

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by E92LNGCGY

That is disappointing to hear about sport exhaust. I was hoping it would be better although we all know it won't sound anything like NA.

Ya I was quite disappointed with it too. I was hoping it would sound significantly better or louder but it just didn't. And my colleagues agreed... Let's wait for Akra

[Cloud9blue]

So one must drive a NA engine to be an enthusiast? Gimme a break... Technology moves on, you guys shouldn't live in the past all the time...

NA engine has its place, so do FI engine. I would gladly trade up a bit a throttle response and sound for much faster corner exist at the track due to the much stronger mid range.

The only thing I don't like about the new 911.2 is the PSE exhaust. Sup with the VW Golf style double anus tips??? Would rather stay with the stock quad. Anyway, sound can be easily fix with aftermarket later on. Imagine how much better it would sound and perform with catless exhaust and a conservative tune.

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

So one must drive a NA engine to be an enthusiast? Gimme a break... Technology moves on, you guys shouldn't live in the past all the time...

NA engine has its place, so do FI engine. I would gladly trade up a bit a throttle response and sound for much faster corner exist at the track due to the much stronger mid range.

The only thing I don't like about the new 911.2 is the PSE exhaust. Sup with the VW Golf style double anus tips??? Would rather stay with the stock quad. Anyway, sound can be easily fix with aftermarket later on. Imagine how much better it would sound and perform with catless exhaust and a conservative tune.

No no I never said that! But if you say "it's faster so it's better"... I mean, that speaks for itself. (Even though I doubt he meant it like that.)

But see, you prefer performance over precision, and I don't. But again, that's personal preference.

I am sure we will see some nicer exhausts and a louder exhaust noise, but the engine noise is what can't be fixed with FE engines. There just is none or little. That's why BMW uses the Active Sound etc. The Porsche actually has some engine sound still which is quite nice, but in the convertible, once you drive faster than like 50 mph you don't hear it anymore.

I agree with you though abut the PSE design. However, it is starting to grow on me. But I have also no idea why they thought this would be a cool thing to do...

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

No no I never said that! But if you say "it's faster so it's better"... I mean, that speaks for itself. (Even though I doubt he meant it like that.)

But see, you prefer performance over precision, and I don't. But again, that's personal preference.

I am sure we will see some nicer exhausts and a louder exhaust noise, but the engine noise is what can't be fixed with FE engines. There just is none or little. That's why BMW uses the Active Sound etc. The Porsche actually has some engine sound still which is quite nice, but in the convertible, once you drive faster than like 50 mph you don't hear it anymore.

Personal preference is just personal preference after all... But the truth is that for a mainstream model to stay relevant in today's $100k sport car market, the standard C2 and C2S 911 desperately need a power bump. And the only way to do that while still meeting the emission guidelines is through FI.

Again, you have to realize for most owners of cars of this price range (doesn't matter it is a C2S, GT3, or Turbo), they care very little on the actual performance other than the fact of owning the greatest and the latest from Porsche. But again, Porsche gives you the freedom to pick from one of the dozen flavors of 911 accompanied with nearly endless option lists, so it is up the owner to decide if they want some boulevard cruiser or a razor sharp track beast, or something in between. However, I have to say just because it has turbos, doesn't mean the engine response is imprecise. Honestly, if turbo engines are good enough for much of the top level motorsports these days, I am sure it will be good enough for amateurs like us.

You have to distinguish intake sound from exhaust. The reason why 911 sound the way it is for the driver is mostly due to its engine placement and the fact Porsche uses a sound tube connecting the cabin to the intake manifold, which is impossible for BMW to do so due to its front engine placement. There is very little you can do with intake sound, but exhaust sound can be pretty much manipulated into whatever you want it to sound like these days.

Every heard of the tiny I4 turbo engine on the Fiat 500 Abarth, sounds pretty good right? The same goes for much of the AMG range as well. It is up the the OEM on how to balance sound, flow, and weight when it comes to design the entire exhaust systems.

That said, not all aftermarket exhausts are created equally. The sad truth is that most of the companies out there is just there to make some quick bucks by slapping some off the shelf mufflers and call it a day, and the ones that don't charge an arm and leg for some steel pipes

[baege]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

And that's the problem. It will of course sell (even all the polls I have seen say people prefer the old 991.1) because it's the new Carrera. It can do everything better. It's the perfect commuter car. Perfect car to sit in traffic anywhere around the world. Perfect car to drive up a nice canyon road on a weekend. The perfect car to buy your wife who doesn't even know what these weird flappy thingys behind the wheel are... But of course, sound is not EVERYTHING (but to me it's 80% lol).

Another thing is that so many people lease cars nowadays, so they have to get the new one no matter what.

Sorry to say, but if you think a faster car is a better car!? then you are not in the "enthusiast" category, at least in my opinion. I have driven so many cars in my young life and I can tell you, speed isn't worth much when it comes to driving pleasure and fun. At least not to me. I have accelerated many times in 2.8 seconds to 60 mph, however, a GT3 that takes .7 longer is much more fun than any of these 2.8 second cars I have been in.

Besides, what do you mean it is more responsive? Because it isn't. It's turbo charged, so it's definitely less responsive than a N/A engine. Maybe you mean that low end torque and that acceleration from down under?

I mean honestly, everybody is entitled to their opinion, I can just speak for myself after growing up with so many fast test cars, and having had the chance to drive so many fast cars myself, to me, just acceleration doesn't mean much. I rather drive a E90 M3 with a nice N/A V8 than a turbo Carrera S... no doubt about it. But again, that's MY OPINION.

You get it man. It's connection, responsiveness, directness that really makes the driving experience. the c7 I had far surpassed my 981 in performance, but it was not nearly as enjoyable a driving experience...

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Personal preference is just personal preference after all... But the truth is that for a mainstream model to stay relevant in today's $100k sport car market, the standard C2 and C2S 911 desperately need a power bump. And the only way to do that while still meeting the emission guidelines is through FI.

Again, you have to realize for most owners of cars of this price range (doesn't matter it is a C2S, GT3, or Turbo), they care very little on the actual performance other than the fact of owning the greatest and the latest from Porsche. But again, Porsche gives you the freedom to pick from one of the dozen flavors of 911 accompanied with nearly endless option lists, so it is up the owner to decide if they want some boulevard cruiser or a razor sharp track beast, or something in between. However, I have to say just because it has turbos, doesn't mean the engine response is imprecise. Honestly, if turbo engines are good enough for much of the top level motorsports these days, I am sure it will be good enough for amateurs like us.

You have to distinguish intake sound from exhaust. The reason why 911 sound the way it is for the driver is mostly due to its engine placement and the fact Porsche uses a sound tube connecting the cabin to the intake manifold, which is impossible for BMW to do so due to its front engine placement. There is very little you can do with intake sound, but exhaust sound can be pretty much manipulated into whatever you want it to sound like these days.

Every heard of the tiny I4 turbo engine on the Fiat 500 Abarth, sounds pretty good right? The same goes for much of the AMG range as well. It is up the the OEM on how to balance sound, flow, and weight when it comes to design the entire exhaust systems.

That said, not all aftermarket exhausts are created equally. The sad truth is that most of the companies out there is just there to make some quick bucks by slapping some off the shelf mufflers and call it a day, and the ones that don't charge an arm and leg for some steel pipes

In your first sentence lies the problem... "mainstream". A Carrera used to be the sports car for an enthusiastic driving experience. Now it's as you correctly said "mainstream". Your average lawyer/doctor car, which is sad in itself, but other than that you're correct of course. It had to improve power and performance while increasing efficiency thanks to the governments.

And your second paragraph is sadly true again. Most people with money today, just buy these things to be part of something, less because they really god damn enjoy that one car. Also, it is true that Porsche gives you the freedom to still buy a N/A aspirated GT3 - but you need the extra cash for it.

In the future it will be really really difficult for enthusiasts to buy these very engaging cars, unless, hopefully they get better again. But before the cars have a chance to get to that fun level again, I think electric and autonomous cars will take over, so the good times are over boys.

Turbo engines are good for motorsports because again, they have no choice. Engineers build the cars to be as efficient as possible in WEC and F1 is a different story. There is such a clear difference between driving a N/A and a turbo engine. But let's not get into that

You're absolutely correct about why the Porsche Boxer engine still produces an intake sound unlike the BMW. But it's not only in the cabin, it's also when you're standing in front of the car. If a turbo car is approaching, you hear barely anything, if a N/A M3 is approaching... wow... you get the point

The i4 turbo in the Abarth sounds good for a 4 cylinder, but that's about it. I had that car to test for a while, the fuel consumption was ridiculous.

That being said, to me Turbos lol. It's like comparing an automatic watch with an atomic Casio. The Casio will be more precise than any automatic watch, but it's far less fascinating and less of a masterpiece. It get's its time by a computer and not by man made components. You get the point. But as you said correctly, it's the future. I will just cry about it 5-10 more years

[Cloud9blue]

Here is the thing. Porsche could have continue making niche market cars, just like Lotus. But it would have been a terrible business plan for them... If I have to choose a between a very well polished but a little watered down 911 or a "focused" 911 that is made by some company that is on the verge of bankruptcy and barely has enough R&D money pour into its newest product, I would pick the "watered down" one...

I don't really agree with a lot of what you said about turbo cars. You can't hear them??? Sure you can't hear a 320 or 328i at all, but you sure as hell will hear a M4 or a 911 Turbo coming from a block away. Btw, E9x M3 sounds extremely tame with stock exhaust (and honestly sounds terrible at idle), and certainly won't raise anyone's attention on the street. It is a different matter with some good aftermarket exhaust though.

And the comparison of radio-quartz vs mechanical watches (which to mind you, the Swiss watch industry is very tightly regulated to avoid water down the profit margin, much like the diamond industry) is just silly since a high performance FI engine is quite a bit more complex and expensive to produce than NA engine of equivalent output, which isn't the case with watches.

At the end of the day, it is all down to personal preference. NA has a charm of its own, so do FI (endless torque rush that is impossible to reproduce without going EV, turbo whines and blow off sounds, etc.) It is totally cool to prefer one over the other, but there is certainly no need to discredit turbo engines just for the sake of doing so, which is seems to trends these days.

The main problem with turbo of the old days is throttle response, which is again contradictory to the current trends, since it was the turbo lags that made those old school turbo engines so interesting to drive (930, 959, F40, XJ220, the list goes on...) Funny how public opinion can be shifted so dramatically over time, no?

But like you said it yourself, the newer engines has virtually no lag when the engine is in its optimal rpms... So what is not to like? The sound, is that it? The NA flat six never sounded THAT GOOD to begin with... So I am not sure how that argument works... It is not like the older 911 sounded like a Carrera GT or S85 with straight pipes, then you guys might have a point. IMO, the 9A2 engine sounds fine even without PSE exhaust, and sound much closer to the traditional sound of 993 and such, without the raspyness of the 996 and 997 engines.

GT3 (starting at $120-130K here in US) really isn't that expensive btw, a mildly optioned C2S or GTS can cost just as much if not more. The problem is the availability of the GT3, which you have to blame on Porsche for producing such limited numbers to intentionally hype up the market. Say whatever you want, Porsche is probably the best in the business when it comes to manipulating its intended market.

In all, I think the 991.2 is a great car and retain the original characteristics of the car while making it a more accessible street car for more people, and all these turbo vs NA or the 911 vs Corvette (which is a much cheaper and less practical car made by a company that I would rather not buy anything from) comparison is downright silly. The upcoming turbo flat-4 boxster and cayman on the other hands... hummm, I am not so sure.

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Here is the thing. Porsche could have continue making niche market cars, just like Lotus. But it would have been a terrible business plan for them... If I have to choose a between a very well polished but a little watered down 911 or a "focused" 911 that is made by some company that is on the verge of bankruptcy and barely has enough R&D money pour into its newest product, I would pick the "watered down" one...

I don't really agree with a lot of what you said about turbo cars. You can't hear them??? Sure you can't hear a 320 or 328i at all, but you sure as hell will hear a M4 or a 911 Turbo coming from a block away. Btw, E9x M3 sounds extremely tame with stock exhaust (and honestly sounds terrible at idle), and certainly won't raise anyone's attention on the street. It is a different matter with some good aftermarket exhaust though.

And the comparison of radio-quartz vs mechanical watches (which to mind you, the Swiss watch industry is very tightly regulated to avoid water down the profit margin, much like the diamond industry) is just silly since a high performance FI engine is quite a bit more complex and expensive to produce than NA engine of equivalent output, which isn't the case with watches.

At the end of the day, it is all down to personal preference. NA has a charm of its own, so do FI (endless torque rush that is impossible to reproduce without going EV, turbo whines and blow off sounds, etc.) It is totally cool to prefer one over the other, but there is certainly no need to discredit turbo engines just for the sake of doing so, which is seems to trends these days.

The main problem with turbo of the old days is throttle response, which is again contradictory to the current trends, since it was the turbo lags that made those old school turbo engines so interesting to drive (930, 959, F40, XJ220, the list goes on...) Funny how public opinion can be shifted so dramatically over time, no?

But like you said it yourself, the newer engines has virtually no lag when the engine is in its optimal rpms... So what is not to like? The sound, is that it? The NA flat six never sounded THAT GOOD to begin with... So I am not sure how that argument works... It is not like the older 911 sounded like a Carrera GT or S85 with straight pipes, then you guys might have a point. IMO, the 9A2 engine sounds fine even without PSE exhaust, and sound much closer to the traditional sound of 993 and such, without the raspyness of the 996 and 997 engines.

GT3 (starting at $120-130K here in US) really isn't that expensive btw, a mildly optioned C2S or GTS can cost just as much if not more. The problem is the availability of the GT3, which you have to blame on Porsche for producing such limited numbers to intentionally hype up the market. Say whatever you want, Porsche is probably the best in the business when it comes to manipulating its intended market.

In all, I think the 991.2 is a great car and retain the original characteristics of the car while making it a more accessible street car for more people, and all these turbo vs NA or the 911 vs Corvette (which is a much cheaper and less practical car made by a company that I would rather not buy anything from) comparison is downright silly. The upcoming turbo flat-4 boxster and cayman on the other hands... hummm, I am not so sure.

First of all, I think this is a great discussion!

I agree that the overall market requires Porsche, BMW and co. to go this watered down direction. I mean, we feel that everywhere, no matter at what company. Nevertheless am I very upset about it. Because nowadays, numbers are all that counts. If a company makes 1% less profit than last year, it's already a tragedy.

You definitely can't hear turbo cars approaching. All you hear is what is coming from the exhaust, which also isn't much unless it's straight piped. The E9x M3 sounded amazing in every single way. Yes, you can improve the exhaust a lot with an aftermarket exhaust, but the sheer induction noise made this car so unique and fun to hear around town or on a racetrack. Now, nothing. And I just tested the M4. Most disappointing car from BMW M I have ever driven, even it is a lot of fun to drift. And the idle sound of a N/A engine, that's exactly what I compare with a mechanical watch. I am not talking about development costs etc. but you just get that feel of mechanical parts that are working in perfect harmony. Unlike in these modern turbo cars that are full with computers. Ok, this is a bit of a broad complain lol. Besides, turbos are such an easy and usually cheap way to get more power out of any kind of engine, which is what I kind of mean with it being less special.

I discredit turbo engines because I have yet to drive a turbo car that gives me as much pleasure as a great N/A car. There is no other reason for me to discredit anything just for fun.

Yeah the good old turbo cars of the 80s and 90s with immense turbo lag lol. That at least had character. I doubt however that it's such a nice driving experience over time haha.

The FLAT SIX doesn't sound good!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! You must be kidding about that lol. It sounds so freaking amazing imo. I mean having that engine scream behind you at 9000 rpm (or even at 7.5k in the Carrera) sounds just like a race car. However, that is seriously down to personal preference

Yea the GT3 is at a very fair price point, at least if you get one from Porsche directly. Otherwise you have to pay a hefty premium as you said.

"In all, I think the 991.2 is a great car and retain the original characteristics of the car while making it a more accessible street car for more people" - I can agree with this, but my problem is that it is a more accessible street car for more people. That makes it less of an interesting car. I hope you get what I mean...

And hahahahah yeah... we all are afraid of the 4 cylinder Turbo engine in the next Boxster lol. Even the guys from Porsche don't feel too confident about it from what I felt.

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

First of all, I think this is a great discussion!

I agree that the overall market requires Porsche, BMW and co. to go this watered down direction. I mean, we feel that everywhere, no matter at what company. Nevertheless am I very upset about it. Because nowadays, numbers are all that counts. If a company makes 1% less profit than last year, it's already a tragedy.

You definitely can't hear turbo cars approaching. All you hear is what is coming from the exhaust, which also isn't much unless it's straight piped. The E9x M3 sounded amazing in every single way. Yes, you can improve the exhaust a lot with an aftermarket exhaust, but the sheer induction noise made this car so unique and fun to hear around town or on a racetrack. Now, nothing. And I just tested the M4. Most disappointing car from BMW M I have ever driven, even it is a lot of fun to drift. And the idle sound of a N/A engine, that's exactly what I compare with a mechanical watch. I am not talking about development costs etc. but you just get that feel of mechanical parts that are working in perfect harmony. Unlike in these modern turbo cars that are full with computers. Ok, this is a bit of a broad complain lol. Besides, turbos are such an easy and usually cheap way to get more power out of any kind of engine, which is what I kind of mean with it being less special.

I discredit turbo engines because I have yet to drive a turbo car that gives me as much pleasure as a great N/A car. There is no other reason for me to discredit anything just for fun.

Yeah the good old turbo cars of the 80s and 90s with immense turbo lag lol. That at least had character. I doubt however that it's such a nice driving experience over time haha.

The FLAT SIX doesn't sound good!?!??!?!?!?!?!?! You must be kidding about that lol. It sounds so freaking amazing imo. I mean having that engine scream behind you at 9000 rpm (or even at 7.5k in the Carrera) sounds just like a race car. However, that is seriously down to personal preference

Yea the GT3 is at a very fair price point, at least if you get one from Porsche directly. Otherwise you have to pay a hefty premium as you said.

"In all, I think the 991.2 is a great car and retain the original characteristics of the car while making it a more accessible street car for more people" - I can agree with this, but my problem is that it is a more accessible street car for more people. That makes it less of an interesting car. I hope you get what I mean...

And hahahahah yeah... we all are afraid of the 4 cylinder Turbo engine in the next Boxster lol. Even the guys from Porsche don't feel too confident about it from what I felt.

All I have to say is that there is plenty of induction noise with turbo engine as well. It is rather strange you find the new M4 is the worst M car of all time. I personally love the way it handles and rush of torque and the exhaust burbles with the optional MPE exhaust. It is miles between than the rather anemic E9x M3 that is replaces IMHO. But I guess that's just your personal opinion, so it is all cool.

Honestly, I am a little lost at what points are you trying to make exactly and it seems like you are stretching your argument way out of reality for your personal affection of NA engine or perhaps it is due to the language barrier between us two so some subtle inferences are lost in translations. That's fine I suppose, but at the end of the day, I just prefer to judge cars more objectively.

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

All I have to say is that there is plenty of induction noise with turbo engine as well. It is rather strange you find the new M4 is the worst M car of all time. I personally love the way it handles and rush of torque and the exhaust burbles with the optional MPE exhaust. It is miles between than the rather anemic E9x M3 that is replaces IMHO. But I guess that's just your personal opinion, so it is all cool.

Honestly, I am a little lost at what points are you trying to make exactly and it seems like you are stretching your argument way out of reality for your personal affection of NA engine or perhaps it is due to the language barrier between us two so some subtle inferences are lost in translations. That's fine I suppose, but at the end of the day, I just prefer to judge cars more objectively.

Alright it's all cool. I don't know if it's the language barrier because actually in my job (motor journalist) I have to be very objective lol! But I always bring my own touch of experience and personal experience with it I guess

No question the modern cars are better than ever, but that's the problem. Every car needs to be good in everything. A McLaren needs to be super fast and set lap records over and over, while being the perfect daily car your mom could drive to get to her next hair appointment. You know what I mean? It's all getting to a point where the overall character of cars get more softened I am afraid.

Anyways, what I am more interested in, how did you get 490 HP out of your N54? Straight pipes I assume with JB4 and...?

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

Alright it's all cool. I don't know if it's the language barrier because actually in my job (motor journalist) I have to be very objective lol! But I always bring my own touch of experience and personal experience with it I guess

No question the modern cars are better than ever, but that's the problem. Every car needs to be good in everything. A McLaren needs to be super fast and set lap records over and over, while being the perfect daily car your mom could drive to get to her next hair appointment. You know what I mean? It's all getting to a point where the overall character of cars get more softened I am afraid.

Anyways, what I am more interested in, how did you get 490 HP out of your N54? Straight pipes I assume with JB4 and...?

True, cars are much more capable in every form or so, whether it is off or on the track. But from my personal experience doing chassis mod on my own cars, you can have tons of feedback from the chassis and engine, but if you use the car as much as you can on the street like me, it gets tiring very quickly, when it comes to stiff bushings, high spring rate and stiff anti roll bars, and track capable shocks. I tolerate it since I track the cars on my local road course as well, but most people don't and personally I would love to have more lighter but more steerable chassis such as 991.2 C2S for my next car.

Much of the modern performance car's problem is weight, but there just isn't much you can do about it without lowering the safety and integrity of the chassis frankly. Same goes for the cars found in motorsport, the Le Mans, turbo F1, and group B rally cars are actually faster than most of the modern day counter parts. Sure it makes a hell of ride to master one of those machine, but a lot of people died on the way trying to tame those beast. It is tough to find balance between all these factors, performance, street ability, comfort, and most important of all, safety, but I think both BMW and Porsche did a very good job with their M4 and 991.2.

I did some low pressure pump upgrade and secondary fuel injection which lets me run full ethanol when at the track, so that the engine can make much more power even with a relatively conservative tune. You should see what people can do with N54 these days with upgraded stock turbos or big single turbo, 6-700hp is the norm these days lol.

[x3ster]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

sound blahblahblah, it'll still sell like hotcakes. it's a faster more responsive car, isn't that more important than sound alone...

M3/M4 much?

[x3ster]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

I also tested the sports exhaust one and it doesn't sound much better. Just the burble when lifting off the throttle seems a bit more extreme, that's it.

Can not remember but recall reading that a magazine or two though it sound better? More air cooled so to speak. Anyhow it makes sense that it does not sound better but was surprised to read that the article thought it did. I only get Road and Track, Car and Driver and Automobile so it had to be one of them.

Is this what we are hearing across the board. Not as good. Heading to rennlist!

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

All I have to say is that there is plenty of induction noise with turbo engine as well. It is rather strange you find the new M4 is the worst M car of all time. I personally love the way it handles and rush of torque and the exhaust burbles with the optional MPE exhaust. It is miles between than the rather anemic E9x M3 that is replaces IMHO. But I guess that's just your personal opinion, so it is all cool.

Honestly, I am a little lost at what points are you trying to make exactly and it seems like you are stretching your argument way out of reality for your personal affection of NA engine or perhaps it is due to the language barrier between us two so some subtle inferences are lost in translations. That's fine I suppose, but at the end of the day, I just prefer to judge cars more objectively.

I agree with your argument and appreciate you taking the time to respond. I gave up because it's obvious from all his videos that he's very biased and all he blabs about is sound and NA engines.....to me sound is important, yes, but so is performance. These cars are made for performance and that is what the new vehicles bring, better performance.
Every new model in this new generation is a better performance vehicle in every metric than the previous model, Fact. The "only" complaint is sound...

I used to like his videos, now I don't even bother watching because if it's a vehicle that has a FI, I know what I'm going to get....stedfast and stubborn resistance to accept the new era we are moving toward....and no matter how good the vehicle, it will likely suck solely based on it's exhaust note.

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by Blksnowflake

I agree with your argument and appreciate you taking the time to respond. I gave up because it's obvious from all his videos that he's very biased and all he blabs about is sound and NA engines.....to me sound is important, yes, but so is performance. These cars are made for performance and that is what the new vehicles bring, better performance.
Every new model in this new generation is a better performance vehicle in every metric than the previous model, Fact. The "only" complaint is sound...

I used to like his videos, now I don't even bother watching because if it's a vehicle that has a FI, I know what I'm doing to get....stedfast and stubborn resistance to accept the new era we are moving toward....and no matter how good the vehicle, it will likely suck solely based on it's exhaust note.

Fair feedback, but I never ever once said it sucked A new car should bring more driving pleasure. The cars performance is so irrelevant to me, because cars are already so fast and have more performance than 90% of the owners will actually ever use. I don't believe there is more than 3% of owners who drive cars as hard as I do here in Germany. I push the cars extremely hard for the time I drive them. So my standpoint might be a different one, but that's my point of view of things and I find it rather sad that people settle for a less sensational driving experience nowadays only because the car is quicker.

[Blksnowflake]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

Fair feedback, but I never ever once said it sucked A new car should bring more driving pleasure. The cars performance is so irrelevant to me, because cars are already so fast and have more performance than 90% of the owners will actually ever use. I don't believe there is more than 3% of owners who drive cars as hard as I do here in Germany. I push the cars extremely hard for the time I drive them. So my standpoint might be a different one, but that's my point of view of things and I find it rather sad that people settle for a less sensational driving experience nowadays only because the car is quicker.

Lol, never heard that mentioned when speaking about sports cars. Your view and idea of enjoyment is so polluted by depending on sound that seemingly none of the other vehicle performance characteristics seem to even be important. Your statement reminds me of a fast & furious teenager from a decade ago who just puts an exhaust can on his Civic and rolled around making noise.

Who cares about driving the car on it's limit, that isn't the only way to extract fun from a car. Not one single video you make are you testing any car to the limit yet you are having fun, in all those "crappy" sounding cars that supposedly rob you of pleasure. I see plenty of smiles, so very hypocritical of you.

If you plan on reviewing cars for a living, you are supposed to be unbiased and objective. It is understandable if you have a preference, but based on your preference if you interject that at every moment and use that opinion to say the vehicle is a failure of some sort on some level then the review is ruined for the viewer.
Take for example a person who is new to Porsche like me, never owned an air cooled or NA engine Porsche, so for me I take the car on face value. I like the new looks, the new performance intrigues me, the interior seems more enjoyable, the steering wheel is an improvement....but wait, it isn't "air cooled"....what a horrid thing....
.....a reminder of the air cooled Porsche guys, still many who always bring this up. It's a pity, you're so young and already your mind seems so old and stern on a subject....

My F80 M3 is my first ///M car and sure I think the E92s sound better, fantastic even, but I feel zero remorse in buying the turbo inline 6, it has it's own sound and character which I love especially with an MPE. The car out performs it's predecessor by leaps and bounds. And that's what we want a better performing car, that provides a more thrilling ride.....the chasis is a huge part of that, from what I recall I have never heard you mention chasis(maybe in passing or a "side note") in your videos, an arguably way more important characteristic than an exhaust note. Suspension, throttle response, transmission, engine performance, etc all way more important and dynamic areas of vehicle performance.
Even the die hard "three pedal" reviewers like Chris Harris can admit that a car with a DCT has it's place in the performance world. He loves sound too, makes a big deal about it in every video, yet in talking about sound or lack there of, he manages to still find enjoyment and enthusiasm for the vehicle's dynamic performance from the driver's seat. Specifically his F80 M3 video, he screams about the grip levels, even that Getawayer dude talks about sound but emphasises that there is much more than just sound alone. Yes you are no Chris,
and you are your own person, but who is the review for, yourself, a specific audience that you seek out or the general public.

You are clearly biased and sadly, the foundation of your enjoyment begins with and ends with sound, as you say "sad that people settle for a less sensational driving experience nowadays only because the car is quicker"....I have literally no idea what this means. I admit that sound is part of the emotion of driving a vehicle, and very important, but as a sports car enthusiast, a mature one, it is small on the complex items that engineers need to get right in order for the car to be fast and safe.

In my opinion, a true mature enthusiast places much more emphasis on the more complex performance aspects, I can change and modify the exhaust easily with aftermarket products. The chasis, engine, suspension, throttle, and the transmission to name a few things are way more difficult to fiddle with if the car is deficient in one of those areas. Walk into an F1 pit and see what the computers are busy calculating or MotoGP where the Ducati, likely the best sounding bike in the paddock but the most complex chasis to tune and worse to control on the track, that's what keeps the engineers up at night. And while F1 has lost some of it's excitement in exhaust note it is still as amazing as ever. But to me that is to the TV viewer, because seeing a race live and hearing those machines slow down, dropping gears and hearing the waste gate dumps is pure bliss to me.

So again, I'd rather pick my battles as an enthusiast and more importantly a customer. Give me a great chasis, suspension, etc....if you want to muck something up, I'd rather it be the sound, which I can cheaply fix, but the chasis for example, forget it, what you get is what you get.....but no, lets talk about exhaust notes over and over and over again, oh and here's a new video, let me guess the exhaust note sucks because it's turbo, and the car is utterly unenjoyable because it has a double clutch transmission....sigh.

You've lost me as a viewer, unfortunate thing really as I like your videos but the constant berating of the sound issue is a joy-kill. You have your opinion and preference which clearly comes across in your videos. If your videos are for the public, it is something you should keep in mind. If your videos are for exhaust audiophiles, then drive on.