[Lockman_321]

Hi guys,

I'm wondering if you could help me with a query. I have checked the stickies and the audio upgrade thread but they only seem to have an answer which relates to using the stock head unit not an aftermarket one so it's hard to tell if my understanding is correct.

I purchased a dynavin N6 and installed a subwoofer in my e93. Now I have base stereo but after changing the head unit to the dynavin the speakers sound much better but still not where I want them to be.

I have seen loads of threads talking about upgrading base stereo to hi-fi or using jl cleans weep to flatten the eq curve for passing a clean signal to amps and speakers etc but by that I think they are talking about keeping the stock head unit so I don't think that's anything I need to do.

So my question is, for better audio from the speakers

A) Amp the existing speakers then run outputs from amp to dynavin
B ) upgrade the speakers and run them directly of dynavin
C) upgrade the speakers and amp them then run the outputs from amp to dynavin

Now I am happy with any option really just want to get the best set up but how much difference would there be between B and C? If I had a stock head unit then I understand the purpose of amping the speakers but wouldn't the dynavin be Powerful enough to run upgraded speakers?

[cdgatti]

I would think that the upgrade from the base stereo to the dynavin would be very good. The dynavin has 4X50 watt amplifier built in. You are definitely at a crossroads, either make a small mod or go in big. I would thing the best small mod you could make is to add some tweeters to your system in the door sails and continue to power everything from the dynavin head/amp unit. Then tune with the dynavin eq and time alignment features, I would think this would be good enough for 95% of the people out there.

If you are one of the top 5% audiophiles, then you will need more... and this would involve adding an amp of at least 5 channels (2 for front doors, 2 for underseats and 1 for subwoofer). The amp would be fed from the 4V pre-outs from the dynavin. I would power the rear speakers from the dynavin if you want them. Then with this additional power you would want better speakers all around, many on this board would recommend Jehnert and Morel.

I would think for option #1 you are looking at about a $250 budget for option #2 the sky is the limit, but can probably do a decent job for less than $1500 if you self install.

Those 2 options pretty much bracket the upgrades. The middle option as you suggested would be upgraded speakers (with tweeters) all powered from the dynavin. You could go the Bavsound option here, I think that would be about $500-$750.

[ctuna]

The stock speakers are cheap and under seats are small
and wired in parallel with the doors.
So and amp or amp/dsp along with one of the new pnp three
way kits would be the next step.

As a cheaper option you might want to forget the rear speakers
and separate the floors from the doors and run the under seats and
doors on separate channels.

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by cdgatti

I would think that the upgrade from the base stereo to the dynavin would be very good. The dynavin has 4X50 watt amplifier built in. You are definitely at a crossroads, either make a small mod or go in big. I would thing the best small mod you could make is to add some tweeters to your system in the door sails and continue to power everything from the dynavin head/amp unit. Then tune with the dynavin eq and time alignment features, I would think this would be good enough for 95% of the people out there.

If you are one of the top 5% audiophiles, then you will need more... and this would involve adding an amp of at least 5 channels (2 for front doors, 2 for underseats and 1 for subwoofer). The amp would be fed from the 4V pre-outs from the dynavin. I would power the rear speakers from the dynavin if you want them. Then with this additional power you would want better speakers all around, many on this board would recommend Jehnert and Morel.

I would think for option #1 you are looking at about a $250 budget for option #2 the sky is the limit, but can probably do a decent job for less than $1500 if you self install.

Those 2 options pretty much bracket the upgrades. The middle option as you suggested would be upgraded speakers (with tweeters) all powered from the dynavin. You could go the Bavsound option here, I think that would be about $500-$750.

Thanks for this. As I already have a 2000W monoblock in the car powering the subwoofer (in the boot not the underseats) im thinking of:

4 channel amp for powering 6 speakers. tweeter and fronts on one channel each and rears on one channel each and leave the underseats as they are as I have the 12" sub in the boot. Does that sound right? Or would you suggest having each tweeter on its own channel on the amp aswell?

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by ctuna

The stock speakers are cheap and under seats are small
and wired in parallel with the doors.
So and amp or amp/dsp along with one of the new pnp three
way kits would be the next step.

As a cheaper option you might want to forget the rear speakers
and separate the floors from the doors and run the under seats and
doors on separate channels.

Oh so whatever option I go down I need to seperate the fronts from the underseats. I think amp plus three way kit is the best option. currently looking to see how cheaply I can find the tweeter moudlings as i dont want to end up paying over for them by gettin them from the stealership!

[ctuna]

Tweeter molding are actually pretty cheap
the last time I looked they were 35 per side and
well worth not screwing your doors or panels up.
Plus the factory look is better.
You can order them from real oem which is actually
a dealership.
mb quart makes a cheap 3 way kit it was going for something
like 250 recently .

[cdgatti]

i would recommend 1 channel for each door mid/tweeter combo and 1 channel for each underseat. power rear speakers with the head unit.

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by cdgatti

i would recommend 1 channel for each door mid/tweeter combo and 1 channel for each underseat. power rear speakers with the head unit.

Oh ok! Can i ask why you suggest this setup (powering the rear speakers from headunit)?

[cdgatti]

sure... based on my own experience and what I have learned on this board, the rear speakers add very little and actually can detract from the audio stage we are trying to create in our cars. The rears should either be off or barely detectable, therefore they do not require the power that your fronts will. So head unit power is more than sufficient and use your much more expensive amp channels on the front speakers.

[ctuna]

Cheapest speaker plug and play kit found.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/2316384...chn=ps&lpid=82

http://www.vminnovations.com/Product...NqkaAkMM8P8HAQ

http://mbquart.com/mobile-audio/bmw-series/bmw-speakers

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by cdgatti

sure... based on my own experience and what I have learned on this board, the rear speakers add very little and actually can detract from the audio stage we are trying to create in our cars. The rears should either be off or barely detectable, therefore they do not require the power that your fronts will. So head unit power is more than sufficient and use your much more expensive amp channels on the front speakers.

Ahh ok that makes sense. Well if that is the case should I also upgrade the underneath if I am going to power them from the amp? As I currently have the stock underneath so I don't know how much difference it will make to amp them?

Originally Posted by ctuna

Cheapest speaker plug and play kit found.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/2316384...chn=ps&lpid=82

http://www.vminnovations.com/Product...NqkaAkMM8P8HAQ

http://mbquart.com/mobile-audio/bmw-series/bmw-speakers

Thanks for this. In the car audio shop the guy had a set of the mb quartz and also had the more expensive focals. I think I might go for the focal because I would rather spend the money now Tha getting the quartz and wanting the focal later on. What's your experience with the quartz? Thanks for all your help!

[ctuna]

Jehnerts , Gladens and Morels are better than Focals
in high end speakers.
Why more bottom range in the doors and not as harsh
in the upper frequency's.
Jehnert has the best 8 inch underseat around unless you
go into the super exotics at more than twice the price.

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by ctuna

Jehnerts , Gladens and Morels are better than Focals
in high end speakers.
Why more bottom range in the doors and not as harsh
in the upper frequency's.
Jehnert has the best 8 inch underseat around unless you
go into the super exotics at more than twice the price.

Ok thank you. I will look into the jenhert underseats. From what I understand it sounds like the best option from me is to get 3 way plus underseats. Amp underseats to each channel, amp tweeter + door to each channel and leave the rears running from headunit.

My only question on this is will there clipping from the rear speakers if I put the volume up to high?

[ctuna]

Three way kit = under seat+4 inch door +tweeter
and a passive crossover.
Kits are made by
Jehnert , Gladen , Focal , MBquart, Diamond audio,
Helix they require no speaker adapters.

You will find that you will want to fade the rear out.
If you want more volume you might want to amp and
upgrade those to. But its not a setup most of us believe
in. Alternately there are the Jehnert doorboards but they
are very expensive see Jehnert website.

[cdgatti]

Originally Posted by Lockman_321

Ok thank you. I will look into the jenhert underseats. From what I understand it sounds like the best option from me is to get 3 way plus underseats. Amp underseats to each channel, amp tweeter + door to each channel and leave the rears running from headunit.

My only question on this is will there clipping from the rear speakers if I put the volume up to high?

lockman - no clipping concern with the rears, because if you are powereing them with the head unit and you have the head unit volume high enough to clip, you are also sending a clipping signal to the amps, so it will all sound terrible. you will have plenty of warning to stay away from clipping.

[Ali-E90]

A) you'll want to amp (and upgrade) the under seat woofers so you can get some good mid-bass out of them (don't get earthquakes), your trunk sub is for sub-bass
B) as mentioned, rear speakers will make it difficult to keep your sound stage up front if amped too loud, BUT I feel a lot of people here are biased for only the ideal sound stage in the front seat.

If you care about rear passengers in the car, and their audio enjoyment, then you will want to upgrade rear speakers also. Powering from the HU may still be ok, or you can consider amping those too.

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by ctuna

Three way kit = under seat+4 inch door +tweeter
and a passive crossover.
Kits are made by
Jehnert , Gladen , Focal , MBquart, Diamond audio,
Helix they require no speaker adapters.

You will find that you will want to fade the rear out.
If you want more volume you might want to amp and
upgrade those to. But its not a setup most of us believe
in. Alternately there are the Jehnert doorboards but they
are very expensive see Jehnert website.

ok. now this makes a bit more sense. I was under the impression that a 3 way kit would bet tweeter, front and rear but it seems its tweeter front and underseat. Thanks for this will look now on those sites now. Thanks again for all your help!

Originally Posted by cdgatti

lockman - no clipping concern with the rears, because if you are powereing them with the head unit and you have the head unit volume high enough to clip, you are also sending a clipping signal to the amps, so it will all sound terrible. you will have plenty of warning to stay away from clipping.

Perfect !

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

A) you'll want to amp (and upgrade) the under seat woofers so you can get some good mid-bass out of them (don't get earthquakes), your trunk sub is for sub-bass
B) as mentioned, rear speakers will make it difficult to keep your sound stage up front if amped too loud, BUT I feel a lot of people here are biased for only the ideal sound stage in the front seat.

If you care about rear passengers in the car, and their audio enjoyment, then you will want to upgrade rear speakers also. Powering from the HU may still be ok, or you can consider amping those too.

Thanks for clearing this up. I was under the impression that I didn't need to upgrade my underseats as I have a sub but now that makes sense. If not getting earthquakes what would you suggest? Also will it be a bit too much bass with amped underseats and a amped sub in the boot? Will the tweeters and the doors be enough that the audio isn't completely drowned out by the bass?

[Ali-E90]

Originally Posted by Lockman_321

ok. now this makes a bit more sense. I was under the impression that a 3 way kit would bet tweeter, front and rear but it seems its tweeter front and underseat. Thanks for this will look now on those sites now. Thanks again for all your help!



Perfect !



Thanks for clearing this up. I was under the impression that I didn't need to upgrade my underseats as I have a sub but now that makes sense. If not getting earthquakes what would you suggest? Also will it be a bit too much bass with amped underseats and a amped sub in the boot? Will the tweeters and the doors be enough that the audio isn't completely drowned out by the bass?

The earthquakes are more of an under seat sub-woofer, and since you already have a sub in the boot, you'd be better of going to an under seat woofer suited for mid-bass instead. This is why Earthquakes are not ideal for you.
There are a few other under seat woofers that do great for midbass, Jenherts are very popular for that (and apparently one of the better values in terms of cost). Also, most of the three-way kits made for our cars should also do just fine (but might be worth confirming that if find a specific kit you like).

Since each speaker (or speaker + tweeter in some cases) will be powered by an independent channel on the amp, you can control the levels going to each of your doors (mid + tweeter), under seat (mid-bass), rear deck (if applicable), and sub (in the boot) to find the ultimate balance that you like. This will likely take some trial and error, and listening to several different songs to make sure you like the end result.

Amping the sub plus under seat woofers won't automatically mean "too much bass" since each woofer type will be focused on a different part of the audio spectrum.

You will want to play with the levels to make sure the sound across all channels is balanced, and also find the right crossover frequencies for each channel. If you're not familiar with all of that, don't worry, it's not too difficult. For now you're on the right track.

Ultimately, coming from base stereo, you'll want:
a) upgrade ALL the speakers (including under seat)
- rears are optional depending on whether or not you care about rear passenger audio
b) amp each speaker by a separate amp channel (doors mid & tweeter can be combined into a single channel, typically via a crossover that comes with the component speaker kit)
- rears can be amped by the HU, or amp, depending on how many channels your amp has
c) adjust the levels of each amp channel so you get a nice balanced sound, suited to your tastes

Hope that helps. Again, it can feel daunting if car audio isn't your thing, but you've got a ton of great info and support through the users of this forum (not talking about myself, there are some real pros who are helpful here).

I upgraded my base audio too, similar route as you (not a Dynavin, but changed by HU, added an amp, upgraded all speakers except rear, sub in the boot).

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

The earthquakes are more of an under seat sub-woofer, and since you already have a sub in the boot, you'd be better of going to an under seat woofer suited for mid-bass instead. This is why Earthquakes are not ideal for you.
There are a few other under seat woofers that do great for midbass, Jenherts are very popular for that (and apparently one of the better values in terms of cost). Also, most of the three-way kits made for our cars should also do just fine (but might be worth confirming that if find a specific kit you like).

Since each speaker (or speaker + tweeter in some cases) will be powered by an independent channel on the amp, you can control the levels going to each of your doors (mid + tweeter), under seat (mid-bass), rear deck (if applicable), and sub (in the boot) to find the ultimate balance that you like. This will likely take some trial and error, and listening to several different songs to make sure you like the end result.

Amping the sub plus under seat woofers won't automatically mean "too much bass" since each woofer type will be focused on a different part of the audio spectrum.

You will want to play with the levels to make sure the sound across all channels is balanced, and also find the right crossover frequencies for each channel. If you're not familiar with all of that, don't worry, it's not too difficult. For now you're on the right track.

Ultimately, coming from base stereo, you'll want:
a) upgrade ALL the speakers (including under seat)
- rears are optional depending on whether or not you care about rear passenger audio
b) amp each speaker by a separate amp channel (doors mid & tweeter can be combined into a single channel, typically via a crossover that comes with the component speaker kit)
- rears can be amped by the HU, or amp, depending on how many channels your amp has
c) adjust the levels of each amp channel so you get a nice balanced sound, suited to your tastes

Hope that helps. Again, it can feel daunting if car audio isn't your thing, but you've got a ton of great info and support through the users of this forum (not talking about myself, there are some real pros who are helpful here).

I upgraded my base audio too, similar route as you (not a Dynavin, but changed by HU, added an amp, upgraded all speakers except rear, sub in the boot).

Thank you so much for clearing everything up. The reason why I was confused as in my all my other cars I would just add a sub to the system and leave it at that.

However I want to upgrade the speakers this time and the whole crossover and component kits confused me. Also when I went into the car audio shop, the guy was showing me a "3 way kit" which he said was front rears and tweeters. However a quick google of how crossovers work plus reading your post has cleared everything up I should have kind of figured this out already as I use the crossover setting on my monoblock amp to allow only the lower end frequencies to go to my sub! Makes sense when you think about

I think what I am going to do is find a 3 way kit (keep it simple), a 4 channel amp for the powering the speakers and leave the rears as they are!

Thanks for all your help guys! much appreciated

[Ali-E90]

Looks like you have a coupe, so I'd agree with your approach. Since you'll be making changes, I'd still connect the rear speakers to directly to the HU, so you can use them (and adjust independently) if you ever do have rear passengers. you can leave the fader to the front as default so those speakers don't play all the time.

Buy a 3-way kit, it will come with a 2-way crossover (to be used with the 4" mid and tweeter) that will combine those two speakers into a single channel that gets plugged into the amp. You'll have to use your amp and/or HU to crossover the under seat woofers as a "band pass", meaning it filters out both high frequencies (being played by your doors) and low frequencies (being played by your sub) and only plays the "in between" mid-bass. If the amp you choose doesn't have the ability to do a bandpass, you can use the low pass on the amp in combination with high pass from the HU to achieve a similar effect.

Ok, now I'm probably confusing you a bit more, but is necessary for a "proper" setup. Ideally, you should have something like this:
Sub playing below 60Hz (some people like the sub to play over 80Hz, is really up to personal preference)
Mid-Bass woofers playing between 60Hz and 180Hz (assuming the sub kicks in at 60, you want to eliminate or minimize overlap as well as gaps)
Doors playing 180Hz and up (again, minimize the gap/overlap with the mid-bass on the top end, but the lower you can make this number the better, some 4" mids can play as low as 120 to 150Hz)
The physical crossover that will come with your speakers will filter out the frequencies between your 4" mids and the tweeters.

[ctuna]

Base System Upgrades
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445266
http://www.monsteraudiodesign.co.uk/
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634957
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1003810
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=822366
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581379
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451941
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540954
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=Dotech
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495855
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494299
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...morel-jbl.html
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ht=amp+upgrade
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=550771
Note some of the these are pretty old.

Also for help in the UK
the guy at the following link

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=704363

[Lockman_321]

Originally Posted by Ali-323i

Looks like you have a coupe, so I'd agree with your approach. Since you'll be making changes, I'd still connect the rear speakers to directly to the HU, so you can use them (and adjust independently) if you ever do have rear passengers. you can leave the fader to the front as default so those speakers don't play all the time.

Buy a 3-way kit, it will come with a 2-way crossover (to be used with the 4" mid and tweeter) that will combine those two speakers into a single channel that gets plugged into the amp. You'll have to use your amp and/or HU to crossover the under seat woofers as a "band pass", meaning it filters out both high frequencies (being played by your doors) and low frequencies (being played by your sub) and only plays the "in between" mid-bass. If the amp you choose doesn't have the ability to do a bandpass, you can use the low pass on the amp in combination with high pass from the HU to achieve a similar effect.

Ok, now I'm probably confusing you a bit more, but is necessary for a "proper" setup. Ideally, you should have something like this:
Sub playing below 60Hz (some people like the sub to play over 80Hz, is really up to personal preference)
Mid-Bass woofers playing between 60Hz and 180Hz (assuming the sub kicks in at 60, you want to eliminate or minimize overlap as well as gaps)
Doors playing 180Hz and up (again, minimize the gap/overlap with the mid-bass on the top end, but the lower you can make this number the better, some 4" mids can play as low as 120 to 150Hz)
The physical crossover that will come with your speakers will filter out the frequencies between your 4" mids and the tweeters.

!
This all makes perfect sense. Thank you very much. Its made the decision easier of what to do. Thank you.

Just one question. What is the best way to connect the speakers to the amp? As the current OEM speakers are connected directly to the head unit. So if I'm replacing them, would I need to run all new speaker wire to the amp location? Or could i just use the existing wire and tap into it (not the best solution as it means I would be cutting up the factory wire which is something I don't want to do)