[DWR]

We (me included) are doing a disservice to Jarek by mucking up his thread.

I'm going to try and fix that by starting this thread. I will copy some pertaintent posts here. Others can do the same as they see appropriate. Then, if you are the author of the moved posts and could delete your post from Jarek's thread I think the offense will be rectified. Here goes.

[DWR]

more ... sorry tuikku for the poor quality. Big image just didn't scale right for some reason. If you could repost that would be great. Anyone know a better way to transfer these?

[petey_highboost]

honestly, the only way to actually compare which car makes more power is to run the car at the track and see what the trap speed is. Dyno is useless IMO and only worth seeing the gains from the mods. That's it. Doesn't really say much if you have a car that makes 400+R whp but it only goes 110mph and not 120+ like a 400hp 335 should run in the quarter..

[Fundguy1]

And cars need to have identical mods or its useless too.

[Bzken]

Originally Posted by petey_highboost

honestly, the only way to actually compare which car makes more power is to run the car at the track and see what the trap speed is. Dyno is useless IMO and only worth seeing the gains from the mods. That's it. Doesn't really say much if you have a car that makes 400+R whp but it only goes 110mph and not 120+ like a 400hp 335 should run in the quarter..

Damn straight. My soon-to-be-ex car will be at the track all over the country pretty much every weekend. We'll see what she can do.

[iaknown]

Originally Posted by petey_highboost

honestly, the only way to actually compare which car makes more power is to run the car at the track and see what the trap speed is. Dyno is useless IMO and only worth seeing the gains from the mods. That's it. Doesn't really say much if you have a car that makes 400+R whp but it only goes 110mph and not 120+ like a 400hp 335 should run in the quarter..

Unless of course you can't get the car to hook for a quarter to half of the track...which it seems is what some are up against now. So then there are other factors involved complicating the comparison, like who wants to set their car up strictly for the quarter mile and who doesn't. I'd hate to give up my car's handling for that as well.

Sounds like NC335D is going that route though. I'm also looking forward to seeing his progress....

Sounds like Bzken is on board too? The more the merrier!

[NC335d]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

And cars need to have identical mods or its useless too.

Hence, the idea of having a "control car". Same car, same mods, same tune, same dyno, different turbos.

[BB_cuda]

Perhaps the different sets of turbos should be run on same car ( with same load of diesel in tank).

[HeatherM35d]

Originally Posted by BB_cuda

Perhaps the different sets of turbos should be run on same car ( with same load of diesel in tank).

Looks like you need someone handy with wrenches to swap turbos like that.

[iaknown]

Originally Posted by NC335d

Hence, the idea of having a "control car". Same car, same mods, same tune, same dyno, different turbos.

Same tune for different turbos with different characteristics? That just doesn't make any sense.

Besides the fact that this comparison with a control car will never happen lol

Ideal test, just not realistic....

[NC335d]

Originally Posted by iaknown

Same tune for different turbos with different characteristics? That just doesn't make any sense.

Besides the fact that this comparison with a control car will never happen lol

Ideal test, just not realistic....

Exactly, ideal test, not realistic. Therefore, there will be no real quantities answer as to which hybrid turbo setup is the best.

[tuikku]

.
It is winter here, so it is impossible to make realistic road test now.
But I have tried.
The follow is driving with winter tires, "studded tires" - is that right, hope you understand.
Anyway, very very very slippery. But something after all.
After careful acceleration, I got that kind of curves.
Torq is ok, but power not, a small difference about that, it is winter.
0-200 with winter tires takes ~16s, I am not any expert for that, the start is difficult ...

[DWR]

Very nice. Thanks.

What software are you using to generate the curves?

[Bob@BPC]

Originally Posted by NC335d

Exactly, ideal test, not realistic. Therefore, there will be no real quantities answer as to which hybrid turbo setup is the best.

If you have any questions about our setup or tuning processes or turbos, you guys are more than welcome to ask, I've talked with many of you over the phone and via email. If you guys want more data, I'll have NC335D's car at the shop next week. Just let me know what you want to see.

Now, onto comparing the track to the dyno to show what makes more power is kinda of an odd thing, I mostly use the dyno as a tuning tool and yes, taking the car to the track is great way to display how fast the car is, but there are so many factors that can sway those numbers in the end. (apple to oranges). So this is just my opinion on the subject.

The dyno has less variables that can effect power numbers than the track will ever have, Just to list a few: Track prep, weather, altitude, tires, tire pressure, suspension, driver, gear ratios, weight of vehicle, aero addons and so on. And now both engine and chassis dynos: dyno type, correction factor, gear ratio (this can be corrected with software) weather (this also can be corrected with software) Tire pressure, altitude (and once again, this can be corrected). To really see the effects, go to youtube, look up stock car, (something with a power adder) and search for video of it running the strip in Colorado and then look up the same car running at Moroso in west palms in FL.

Correction factors are used to keep numbers consistent. Just as an example, I dyno'd my F30 328i in the summer uncorrected it made 262rwhp, corrected it made 259rwhp SAE. In the fall before our dyno day, the car laid down 278rwhp uncorrected and corrected, it was 260rwhp SAE with no changes.

So my point is you cannot really display what the cars true power is with just a rip down the drag strip. Once again, This is my opinion on the subject.

[tuikku]

.
And then the turbo air intake...

First, look the orig and those "hybrid" turbo air intake.
I have some opinion of the quality of the work and price ...
And compare it to this.





Orig air hose from air filter to turbo intake and mod.
Orig is very small, 40mm from the end.
No sense to do any turbo mods if not do this also.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by NC335d

Exactly, ideal test, not realistic. Therefore, there will be no real quantities answer as to which hybrid turbo setup is the best.

I think some of us have a pretty good handle on how to compare different vehicles under different conditions. It is not at a drag strip or on a dyno, but similar. We do it using standardized tools like PerfExpert, DynoMaster, Gtech, Vbox, etc using standardized techniques. We do it taking data on boost, AFR, MAF, EGT, IAT, AAT, EBP, etc. We monitor environmental conditions and understand their effect on performance.

Funny, when Jarek posted his thread on his hybrid offering(s) there was discussion on fuel pumps, traction, intake mods. I posted this thread so we could talk about anything related to hybrid turbos and now we are getting bogged down, lol. I didn't see that coming. OK, well, whatever everyone wants to discuss ... that's why this space is here. Cheers.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPC

If you have any questions about our setup or tuning processes or turbos, you guys are more than welcome to ask, I've talked with many of you over the phone and via email. If you guys want more data, I'll have NC335D's car at the shop next week. Just let me know what you want to see.

Now, onto comparing the track to the dyno to show what makes more power is kinda of an odd thing, I mostly use the dyno as a tuning tool and yes, taking the car to the track is great way to display how fast the car is, but there are so many factors that can sway those numbers in the end. (apple to oranges). So this is just my opinion on the subject.

The dyno has less variables that can effect power numbers than the track will ever have, Just to list a few: Track prep, weather, altitude, tires, tire pressure, suspension, driver, gear ratios, weight of vehicle, aero addons and so on. And now both engine and chassis dynos: dyno type, correction factor, gear ratio (this can be corrected with software) weather (this also can be corrected with software) Tire pressure, altitude (and once again, this can be corrected). To really see the effects, go to youtube, look up stock car, (something with a power adder) and search for video of it running the strip in Colorado and then look up the same car running at Moroso in west palms in FL.

Correction factors are used to keep numbers consistent. Just as an example, I dyno'd my F30 328i in the summer uncorrected it made 262rwhp, corrected it made 259rwhp SAE. In the fall before our dyno day, the car laid down 278rwhp uncorrected and corrected, it was 260rwhp SAE with no changes.

So my point is you cannot really display what the cars true power is with just a rip down the drag strip. Once again, This is my option on the subject.

I share your opinion and piggyback your comments about limiting the noises to be able to make better comparisons. When it comes to dynamic transient behavior there is no substitute for driving the vehicle.

[tuikku]

.
Think, how much do you want to pay for that your car has more power that majority of chipped here, but not all, not all.

My car
If I remember correctly, the only mod was to remove the dpf.
And my own softw.
The car is not in "very good shape", you certainly have better.
And I am neither ...






And then, bigger turbo modded, only bigger.
Other mod was Wagner cooler
Very very tiny turbo intake pipe changed, nobady here mention about that, why ?
And my softw, no other "power" mods.

So, exhaust pipe is still stock, cat is still there, air cleaner is orig ....
Here is dynograph, where only bigger turbo is used.
It is totally rebuild, everything changed, made by Pro Turbo Finland.
Turbo supports even more, no smoke now, no at all.
But original fuel system cuts the power increase to this level, have to do something about that.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by tuikku

.
And then the turbo air intake...

First, look the orig and those "hybrid" turbo air intake.
I have some opinion of the quality of the work and price ...
And compare it to this.
...


Orig air hose from air filter to turbo intake and mod.
Orig is very small, 40mm from the end.
No sense to do any turbo mods if not do this also.
...

I like that. Thanks for sharing. Did you make that intake pipe yourself? Any more details on your turbo mods?

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by tuikku

.
It is winter here, so it is impossible to make realistic road test now.
But I have tried.
The follow is driving with winter tires, "studded tires" - is that right, hope you understand.
Anyway, very very very slippery. But something after all.
After careful acceleration, I got that kind of curves.
Torq is ok, but power not, a small difference about that, it is winter.
0-200 with winter tires takes ~16s, I am not any expert for that, the start is difficult ...


...

Thanks for posting. I'll share some more as well.

I've found PerfExpert to be a great tuning tool. IF I use the same section of flat/smooth road and follow the same procedures for the pull. It also pulls weather data from the nearest weather station (based on cell tower location) and can correct for weather variations.

I'm not claiming it's "accurate", but it is repeatable. And it's predictions line up well with dragstrip performance logged data and matchbot predictions.

This graph is wheel power/trq in 4th gear (shift to 5th happens at just above 4600 where the values drop like a rock) is from where things were at at the end of fall before winter hit and I switched to my soft winter tires. Temp was 41F pressure was 994.1 hPa which results in the values being corrected down from non corrected values.

I'm purposely trying to limit peak torque, as I'm concerned about the stress on the drivetrain as well as traction ...

I'm eagerly awaiting dragstrip performance from NC335d and others who have went to hybrids. Been considering this mod for awhile now, but am torn between the $/hp benefit, the increased stress on drivetrain components, and balancing the tradeoffs for an "everyday" commuter car.

Really appreciate the discussion in this thread and all those contributing and adding data and insight.

[tuikku]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Thanks for posting. I'll share some more as well.

I've found PerfExpert to be a great tuning tool. IF I use the same section of flat/smooth road and follow the same procedures for the pull. It also pulls weather data from the nearest weather station (based on cell tower location) and can correct for weather variations.

I'm not claiming it's "accurate", but it is repeatable. And it's predictions line up well with dragstrip performance logged data and matchbot predictions...

I am using Insoric, and have the very same thoughts.
I do remapping for heavily modded (diesel)cars also.
And this kind of tool is "must" to have, if you want them work properly also.
Dyno is useless for that.
It cannot tell practically anything about engine behavior on the road.

About the hybrids.
Many here have tried that kind mod, not real benefit.
The best result with only diesel that I know is ~450hp with quite a smoke.

Your result is so good, that you must use some kind of additive.
Your transmission is zf6hp28, it seems to last very high torques, ++800nm easily, here are many of them.

[Dan@BPC]

Here's some data you guys have been waiting for, maf flow rates

Red line, stock
Green line, stock turbos with abc delete and 35psi
Blue line, bpc hybrid turbo setup abc delete and 40psi

As you can see the hybrid turbos max the maf reading out halfway through the pull