[bmwzimmer]

Did a little experiment today. Busted out the thermometer to see what the engine temps were at various speeds. Before doing the test, I did a little calibration (tested room temperature, body temp and dipped the thermalcouplers in boiling water) and determined that Thermal couple T2 always reads 5degees lower than Thermal couple T1. So please add 5 degrees from T2 for the images below.

CONDITIONS
Ambient Conditions 63F, Sunny, Oil temps warmed up to about 220-230C with AC on full blast.
Mounted Thermal couple #1 over a "cone or cylinder" style filter
Mounted Thermal couple #2 near where some other filters may be located.

My thermal couple wouldn't reach the front bumper so I didn't test the temperatures of a true cold air intake...

As you can see, data was taken at Idle and at various speeds (12mph-70mph). Results are pretty consistent....
The last image is at 12mph. Temps still pretty hot.

ENJOY

[O-cha]

I did the same thing. Make sure you don't get fooled though, make sure you take rolling temp measurements while doing a pull. Temps go up a whole lot from cruising after you load the engine which is where you should really care.

Here were my results.

All 80 degree ambients (about 27 Celsius)

Stock airbox:
30-35 (86-95) driving (no change during long hard acceleration)
40-50 (104-122) after stopping

Dual cones:
40-45 (104-114) cruising
60+ (140+) during a pull (No heatsoak just the pump ramping up from the load, actual heatsoak where the coolant is above the target temp it will go up even more)
70+ (158+) standing, got as high as 90 CELSIUS when I got stuck by a train before I shut the car off.

UR CAI:
Ambient cruising, I mean literally I drove through a shaded area and watched the temp go from 28 to 22 no joke. It's is actually colder then the stock airbox. Temps stay the same or lower on pulls, which is a big woohoo.

50+ sitting, Unfortunately it is in the engine bay so it's still susceptible to the same temp climb as the stock box and dual cones. However it immediately drop after starting off.

[PresaMat]

Very interesting! Thanks for the testing from both of you. Hadnt seen your results before O-Cha. But exactly what i thought they would be. I really dont like how how the "on top of the engine" intakes get. O-Cha do you have the UR? How do you like it?

Mat

[DrewKo]

Does anyone know about what temp the air is when it reaches the turbos and systemically once the air enters the engine's system what temperature is maintained, if any? The reason I ask is to help determine if the change in air temps in the engine bay area once they are sucked into the intakes become less important if, for example, the engine system cools the air before entering the turbos. Another way of asking the question is whether the change in temperatures as you measured makes any difference in the engine's performance. I know leftcoastman found an increase in performance using the dual cone set up over the stock air box. I am not sure if Ocha measured any affects on performance.

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by DrewKo

Does anyone know about what temp the air is when it reaches the turbos and systemically once the air enters the engine's system what temperature is maintained, if any? The reason I ask is to help determine if the change in air temps in the engine bay area once they are sucked into the intakes become less important if, for example, the engine system cools the air before entering the turbos. Another way of asking the question is whether the change in temperatures as you measured makes any difference in the engine's performance. I know leftcoastman found an increase in performance using the dual cone set up over the stock air box. I am not sure if Ocha measured any affects on performance.

I do not believe any of the air is cooled besides the air that goes through the intercooler. I do know that intake air temp will make a performance difference. Easiest way to tell this... drive your car when its cold out and when its warm/hot and tell me what you feel.

[DrewKo]

Yep, I'm with you. Where does the air from the pipes connecting to the filters travel in the engine--ie, does it travel directly to the turbos?

[Lane]

Originally Posted by PresaMat

I do not believe any of the air is cooled besides the air that goes through the intercooler. I do know that intake air temp will make a performance difference. Easiest way to tell this... drive your car when its cold out and when its warm/hot and tell me what you feel.

That is mainly because the IC gets cold air and cools better.

When it comes to intake, it needs to breath enough to provide >360whp. Big cone filters remove the stock airbox restriction.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by PresaMat

I do not believe any of the air is cooled besides the air that goes through the intercooler. I do know that intake air temp will make a performance difference. Easiest way to tell this... drive your car when its cold out and when its warm/hot and tell me what you feel.

That argument works, but not for the reason you think on a turbo car. On an NA car yes, but on a turbo car with a FMIC the reason you feel more power is simply because colder air is running across your FMIC. That is what is cooling the IAT's and giving you more power. I don't think the colder ambient temperatures are significantly affecting the temperatures leaving the turbos.

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

That argument works, but not for the reason you think on a turbo car. On an NA car yes, but on a turbo car with a FMIC the reason you feel more power is simply because colder air is running across your FMIC. That is what is cooling the IAT's and giving you more power. I don't think the colder ambient temperatures are significantly affecting the temperatures leaving the turbos.

Interesting. You may be right. My only response though is the cooler the air that gets to the turbo the more dense it will be when leaving. While it may not be a huge temp/density difference there will be one. Which would you rather have? 50-80 degree air going into the turbo or 90-130? IMO the 40 degrees could make a difference. (This is in reference to in engine intakes).

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by PresaMat

Interesting. You may be right. My only response though is the cooler the air that gets to the turbo the more dense it will be when leaving. While it may not be a huge temp/density difference there will be one. Which would you rather have? 50-80 degree air going into the turbo or 90-130? IMO the 40 degrees could make a difference. (This is in reference to in engine intakes).

I would agree having colder temps going into the intercoolers is much more efficient that hot air going in...but others may feel this may not be the case.

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I would agree having colder temps going into the intercoolers is much more efficient that hot air going in...but others may feel this may not be the case.

IMO there is NO way it CAN'T be more efficient. How much more? I do not know. But it is more non the less. Especially with the stock IC. With an aftermarket one that cools more efficiently maybe it wouldnt make as large a difference but with the stock 40-50 degree IMO could make a decent difference.

PS. bmzzimmer: you stated in your post that T2 reads 5 degrees lower then T1. But then say to subtract 5 degrees from the reading... Im a little confused. If it did read 5 lower then one would need to add 5 degrees to the reading. Just looking to clarify. Thanks!

[Lane]

Density based on a few degrees difference after intercooler does not fully compensate the lack of air volume due intake volume restrictions. Air volume restrictions are due to small diameter tubing / small filter area / bends in the intake.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by PresaMat

Interesting. You may be right. My only response though is the cooler the air that gets to the turbo the more dense it will be when leaving. While it may not be a huge temp/density difference there will be one. Which would you rather have? 50-80 degree air going into the turbo or 90-130? IMO the 40 degrees could make a difference. (This is in reference to in engine intakes).

I agree if the difference was that vast, then it is worth it. The problem is it doesn't work like that. There are things like the efficiency or your intercooler, turbos, etc. that play a much larger role in ultimately what IAT's you see. The point I am making is an intake is simply to get air to the engine. On an N/A car, there is a substantial difference between cold air and regular intakes. On a turbo car with an intercooler, other things are vastly more important. This is the reason you see Supras, RX7, IS300, etc. with dyno glory style intakes. They spend their money on things like intercoolers, fuel system upgrades, larger turbos etc. I think the obsession with pre-turbo intake temperatures is wasting our brain power to be honest.

Presmat, remember the stock IC has been shown to do a pretty good job. It will heat soak faster than aftermarket ones, but I think the IAT's were between 120-135 degrees I believe. Those are not high at all.

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by Lane

Density based on a few degrees difference after intercooler does not fully compensate the lack of air volume due intake volume restrictions. Air volume restrictions are due to small diameter tubing / small filter area / bends in the intake.

Lane: i agree with you here - air volume is more important then temp. But I would like to see one that helps with both. Terrys concept is interesting but I would love to see some flow stats on it due to the way its designed its hard to get a good idea of how its flowing.

Former: Good points. Could you point me to a possible article that talks about the efficiency of intercoolers etc. Im wondering what kind of different results people have seen with 20-40 degree difference on intake temps. I would like to see the temp difference right before the manifold. At say 60 degrees outside and 90 degrees outside.

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by DrewKo

I know leftcoastman found an increase in performance using the dual cone set up over the stock air box. I am not sure if Ocha measured any affects on performance.

LOL, come on man, Ocha doesn't care about performance, he just cares about being "right".

But you are correct, I got 2mph faster terminal speeds on the longest straight at my local road course. And this is using the stock vs. dual cone intake on the same day.

At the end of the day, all the theory in the world means less to me than real world results. I've spent enough time in academia to know that theory is dependent upon assumptions. The proof is in the pudding. If scratching my left nut made me go faster, but Ocha swore up and down that scratching your nut makes your leg twitch, which makes you ease up on the throttle, I'd still do it because the proof-positive results it provided.

BTW - I tested it - scratching your left nut doesn't work.

Your right nut, however.....

[O-cha]

Keep in mind these increased terminal speeds are from a guy who "swore up and down" that the engine bay filter was intaking no hotter air.

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

LOL, come on man, Ocha doesn't care about performance, he just cares about being "right".

But you are correct, I got 2mph faster terminal speeds on the longest straight at my local road course. And this is using the stock vs. dual cone intake on the same day.

At the end of the day, all the theory in the world means less to me than real world results. I've spent enough time in academia to know that theory is dependent upon assumptions. The proof is in the pudding. If scratching my left nut made me go faster, but Ocha swore up and down that scratching your nut makes your leg twitch, which makes you ease up on the throttle, I'd still do it because the proof-positive results it provided.

BTW - I tested it - scratching your left nut doesn't work.

Your right nut, however.....

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by DrewKo

I am not sure if Ocha measured any affects on performance.

I did a dyno of all three and showed the cone filters to have a substantial drop in power. I'm sure someone will jump in and talk about how the airflow of a dyno is not the same and yada yada yada but take it for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

Presmat, remember the stock IC has been shown to do a pretty good job. It will heat soak faster than aftermarket ones, but I think the IAT's were between 120-135 degrees I believe. Those are not high at all.

Stock or with extra boost? The tuned cars see much higher temps then that right away. Doesn't matter though since lower temps would actually serve to increase the difference between charge temps.

[hotrod2448]

I'm more interested in seeing how much heat the intake air gains going from the airbox to the turbos. I'm willing to bet it's pretty substantial.

The rear can't see much if any cooling air flow being wedged between the engine and firewall. I'm sure the front also absorbs quite a bit of heat too.

[AWD Addict]

I still stand by the opinion that 5-10degree temp differences at the filter mean shit after running through the soaked intake, compressed at the turbos, and then cooled substantially at the IC.

The real comparison is this data combined with data at the turbo outlet and IC outlet.

lower snorkel temps can't be proven to have any positive effect, (particularly ones that are so small) without knowing what the temps are just prior to combustion.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

I'm more interested in seeing how much heat the intake air gains going from the airbox to the turbos. I'm willing to bet it's pretty substantial.

The rear can't see much if any cooling air flow being wedged between the engine and firewall. I'm sure the front also absorbs quite a bit of heat too.

Through plastic? Not really. Not that it matters.

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

I still stand by the opinion that 5-10degree temp differences at the filter mean shit

5-10 degrees? Try 50+

Do you also stand by your opinion that charge air temperatures are over 1000 degrees before the intercooler?

Originally Posted by AWD Addict

With turbos, volume of air is more important than incoming temperature. The turbo is just going to heat the charge up to close to 1000 degs anyways.

[Hunter399]

yikes

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Through plastic? Not really. Not that it matters.

Yes, through plastic. You think plastic doesn't transfer heat? Try touching the end tank of your radiator some time.

If you are going to try and keep intake temps down you have to look at the whole system. If it stays cool to the filter then ends up being the same temp as the air under the hood while getting to the turbo it's pretty much a wasted effort.