[pikkashoe]

I know specifically that we cannot use anything less than 91 octane when running piggyback tunes. In my case Procede V2.

Ive been noticing at my local Shell stations here in S. Florida. that they say the fuel contains up to 10% ethanol.

Can this be detrimental to our tunes running piggybacks?

[O-cha]

Ethanol is higher octane then 93, but they will equalize it with lower octane probably. You need to worry more about the seals in your fuel system and the fuel pump from it.

My understanding is that it's a relatively new thing to start adding the ethanol in FL.

[pikkashoe]

For saving costs? If so why the hell are prices still so high. I smell lawsuit here. What else would they add ethanol to the fuel. Im assuming ethanol is cheaper than fuel.

[bdkevoIX]

To save cost, and to raise octane without having corrosive effects on the lines ect.

[pikkashoe]

If it saves cost for the fuel companies, why are they still charging the same price per gallon. Im assuming ethanol is alot cheaper than fuel.

[drphil71]

At most pumps down here it says all gasoline at the station contains up to 8% ethanol. I think ive seen 10% also.

[e90AW335i]

A couple things....

1. Ethanol is more expensive (I believe), because we have to get it from corn and the process of doing that is very expensive.

2. The reason for adding ethanol to the gas is to reduce greenhouse gases

[musc]

Most of the pumps here in SC now say "may contain up to 10% ethanol". Even the Shell stations have it posted on their pumps.

One interesting thing is that a few of the stations no longer have 87 octane. One station has 89 90 and 93 and another has 89 92 93. The prices seem equivalent as before...which each higher grade costing about 10 cent more. I am assuming that the increased octane is from the ethanol.

[bdkevoIX]

True, E85 contains upto 85% ethanol and cars can be converted to use that much ethanol instead of gasoline.

The benefit of E85 is in its high octane rating,
I believe its close to 105 octane or something.
You can run more timing and higher boost with these.

Downside is you have to change fuel pump, fuel lines, bigger injectors etc because you use up ethanol much faster than gasoline.

Ethanol itself is cheaper than gasoline.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

A couple things....

1. Ethanol is more expensive (I believe), because we have to get it from corn and the process of doing that is very expensive.

2. The reason for adding ethanol to the gas is to reduce greenhouse gases

Closest thing to the right answer yet. Ethanol, although once competitive with the cost of gas is now higher because of the great demand for it. It is barely net positive. This means you get just a little more energy out of it then what you put into it with all of the farming, harvesting, transportation, ect.

So, why is it used?

There are polices in place to help curve the US’s crazy appetite for fossil fuels. These fuels stem from mostly overseas and depend on such countries as Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Nigeria, Venezuela, and Iraqi. This will be troublesome into the future thus, we are starting to consider our path now (about time).

By supporting Ethanol, we will eventually figure how to refine it biologically rather then current mechanical/chemical techniques this will produce a huge jump in its‘ energy balance (making it very net positive). This will take awhile to perfect but, is very important if this technology is to survive.

Also worth noting with Ethanol, it has a lower energy density the gasoline, thus expect poorer performance and worse gas mileage. Our cars’ fuel line are suppose to be fine up to 10%, however the pipe lines are not so it currently has to be trucked everywhere (big negative).

Originally Posted by bdkevoIX

True, E85 contains upto 85% ethanol and cars can be converted to use that much ethanol instead of gasoline.

The benefit of E85 is in its high octane rating,
I believe its close to 105 octane or something.
You can run more timing and higher boost with these.

Downside is you have to change fuel pump, fuel lines, bigger injectors etc because you use up ethanol much faster than gasoline.

Ethanol itself is cheaper than gasoline.

This has some true points to it however, gas is cheaper. There is no real benefit to E85 aside from environmental and political reasons. Import to note, it’s not helping the environment or the US right now. But, it should down the road.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

By supporting Ethanol, we will eventually figure how to refine it biologically rather then current mechanical/chemical techniques this will produce a huge jump in its‘ energy balance (making it very net positive).

We already do make it biologically, watch an ALM race and try not to be told all about it about 50 times over.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by O-cha

We already do make it biologically, watch an ALM race and try not to be told all about it about 50 times over.

sure we do but, not well. We were doing in 10 years ago. Cost and scale are still a huge problem.

[Mattscott]

it take more energy to make it, then it makes. It's a dumb process right now.

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by Mattscott

it take more energy to make it, then it makes. It's a dumb process right now.

I agree fully. There is research going on right now using switchgrass. It produces 10x the amount of energy then corn based ethanol. But the incentive isn't really there for oil companies to switch to it... they make so much money they don't care.

A little more info: http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html

[drphil71]

Originally Posted by PresaMat

I agree fully. There is research going on right now using switchgrass. It produces 10x the amount of energy then corn based ethanol. But the incentive isn't really there for oil companies to switch to it... they make so much money they don't care.

A little more info: http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html

On top of the fact that ethanol is causing flour prices to go through the roof. Wait a second, flour....BMW...im off track.

Im not for ethanol.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by Mattscott

it take more energy to make it, then it makes. It's a dumb process right now.

See my post above, it's about neutral, maybe plus a little depending on the process and circumstances

Not sure I'd call it dumb, we have to do something, Americans like cars and big inefficient ones at that. Wait until China and India start buying cars, expect 10 bucks a gallon.

As mentioned, switch grass, bamboo, and a few other fast growing energy dense crops have great potential and this country has always treated farmers rather well (maybe even too well). I expect if we want to go in this direction there is little the oil companies can do. They don’t care anyway, from now on, oil will always be in short supply then, it’s gone.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

See my post above, it's about neutral, maybe plus a little depending on the process and circumstances

Not sure I'd call it dumb, we have to do something, Americans like cars and big inefficient ones at that. Wait until China and India starts buying cars, expect 10 bucks a gallon.

+1, Crap....

[bdkevoIX]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

This has some true points to it however, gas is cheaper. There is no real benefit to E85 aside from environmental and political reasons. Import to note, it’s not helping the environment or the US right now. But, it should down the road.

You got it all wrong my friend.
I don't know where you are getting the wrong information.

National average price for gasoline as of March 2008 is $3.10.
National average price for E85 as of March 2008 is $2.60.

So the gasoline is more expensive than ethanol.

However, ethanol powered vehicles spent about 30% more than gasoline so the net price comes out to be about the same.

You are also wrong about E85 having no performance gain.
Why do you think there are alcohol/methanol injection out there?

E85 does not raise the octane level in itself, but it does so by dramatically reducing the temperature of the fuel/air mixture.

If you are TUNED for alky/meth injection or straight up e85, you can run advanced timing and more boost which equal to more power.

On a sidenote, e85 powered vehicles spool up turbo faster.

If you don't believe me, do some research.

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

See my post above, it's about neutral, maybe plus a little depending on the process and circumstances

Not sure I'd call it dumb, we have to do something, Americans like cars and big inefficient ones at that. Wait until China and India start buying cars, expect 10 bucks a gallon.

As mentioned, switch grass, bamboo, and a few other fast growing energy dense crops have great potential and this country has always treated farmers rather well (maybe even too well). I expect if we want to go in this direction there is little the oil companies can do. They don’t care anyway, from now on, oil will always be in short supply then, it’s gone.

Unforunately... as much as it is said oil is NOT is short supply. The world still has VAST oil ranges. BUT like De Beers and diamonds the oil companies make the public think its rare (diamonds are actually not rare at all... if all the diamonds in Da Beers and others storage were to be released on the open market - they would be worth just about nothing). This unfortunately isn't rumor its fact (I worked for a company that did geophysical imaging to find oil). Also about the switch to ethanol - there is only ONE group that has the infrastructure in place to allow the switch.... thats the oil companies.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by bdkevoIX

You got it all wrong my friend.
I don't know where you are getting the wrong information.

National average price for gasoline as of March 2008 is $3.10.
National average price for E85 as of March 2008 is $2.60.

So the gasoline is more expensive than ethanol.

However, ethanol powered vehicles spent about 30% more than gasoline so the net price comes out to be about the same.

You are also wrong about E85 having no performance gain.
Why do you think there are alcohol/methanol injection out there?

E85 does not raise the octane level in itself, but it does so by dramatically reducing the temperature of the fuel/air mixture.

If you are TUNED for alky/meth injection or straight up e85, you can run advanced timing and more boost which equal to more power.

On a sidenote, e85 powered vehicles spool up turbo faster.

If you don't believe me, do some research.

Respectively disagree, good information though. The reason why E85 is cheaper is because we are currently subsidizing both ethanol and E85. Thus, our tax money is going towards this fuel (or huge tax breaks are given). So, you are paying for more then you think you are.

You are correct though, at the pump, you are paying less per gallon and that's worth noting! But, like you mention, one gallon doesn't equal the other. So thats not worth comparing without a correction.

I am telling you that putting E85 into an E85 car, as far as I know, doesn’t give you any performance gain. With tweaks, I am sure you can get there. But, as you mention you are using gobs more of fuel so, whats the point? It’s easy to make something fast with gobs of fuel but, isn’t that what got us in this problem in the first place?

Originally Posted by PresaMat

Unforunately... as much as it is said oil is NOT is short supply. The world still has VAST oil ranges. BUT like De Beers and diamonds the oil companies make the public think its rare (diamonds are actually not rare at all... if all the diamonds in Da Beers and others storage were to be released on the open market - they would be worth just about nothing). This unfortunately isn't rumor its fact (I worked for a company that did geophysical imaging to find oil). Also about the switch to ethanol - there is only ONE group that has the infrastructure in place to allow the switch.... thats the oil companies.

I call a few hundred years left of our main energy source (the one that keeps our economy going) very scary. Again, wait until China and India start making their 5,000 dollar cars. This will be gone in no time. If you are of the mind set that when you are gone then it doesn’t effect you. Then, you probably have a point. But, I expect in my life time to see problems getting oil, if not accounted for. Again I think we just have different thoughts on vast, I think we have a vast nuclear supply.

One, from the future consumption and two from political problems. We are lucky that Canada has a great supply. But, we piss of the middle east and South America too much and we are done!

You act like this is some sort of scare tactic, if Bush (a big oil guy) thinks we have a problem, shouldn’t we? Something I always think about is that yes there is still a lot of oil out there but, it’s in some of the worse possible spots for us.

Da Beers has a monopoly, not sure there is a way around that.

All depends if the pipelines can be retrofitted to carry ethanol. If not, not sure what part big oil will have in this process. I am sure they will find their place though. The farms stand to make the biggest gain here.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

Respectively disagree, good information though. The reason why E85 is cheaper is because we are currently subsidizing both ethanol and E85. Thus, our tax money is going towards this fuel (or huge tax breaks are given). So, you are paying for more then you think you are.

HUGE amounts of subsidies....

[Mattscott]

Yeah but once that process becomes more efficent, or actually efficient at all the price of corn/switchgrass/bamboo will go through the roof as well. Wherever there is a buck to be made, it will be.

What they are doing right now isn't going to work, but the fact that they are learning more, and doing research is a step in the right direction. Just right now, it is counter productive.