[PINeely]

Last night we went to our friend's gender reveal party for their baby, they are having a little girl! However there was one annoying, drunk woman there who would not shut up about how it was "too bad she'll only be making 78 cents on the dollar" and "it's hard to come up in a man's world." This got me thinking about the so-called "wage gap." If employers could save 22% on employee wages... why wouldn't they? They would ONLY hire women.

There it is folks; women are not the overwhelming majority of the workforce. So either employers don't want to save 22% on wages or the wage gap is a myth, because both can't be true at the same time. Curious as I am, I started to wonder about the origin of these numbers and how big the wage gap, if any, really is.

Let's discuss the American Association of University Women. The AAUW maintains a fund to represent women in sexual discrimination cases (ironically they will only represent women for such cases, but I digress). If they take your case, one of their conditions is that you must allow them to publicize it for donations. What? That's right, the AAUW publicizes and politicizes cases for money, meaning that they have a lot to gain by keeping the discrimination alive. Guess who has been keeping the 22% number around in their publications?

For years the AAUW has been claiming that women make 22, 23, sometimes as high as 41 percent less than their male colleagues. They do this by conflating job types (comparing apples to oranges). Basically they are comparing the salaries of female social workers to the salaries of male CEOs. And they got called on it. Attempting to cover their tracks, they put out this publication, which concludes that women make 7% less than men when most of those variables are accounted for. You can read the whole thing if you like but the statistical analysis begins on page 14: http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/gr...graduation.pdf. Hold on, that's still a pay gap of 7%. Is it a big, spooky, sexist conspiracy? Consider the following:

1. According to the US Department of Labor, women are more likely to come into work later, leave work earlier, and take sick/parental leave.
Salary jobs are one thing, but if the AAUW has been honest with their numbers then hourly jobs would also be included. This means that those working fewer hours are making less than those who work more hours, thus creating a "pay gap."

2. Despite (allegedly) being paid less, women overwhelmingly report higher job satisfaction.
Is it possible that women sometimes settle for less in their employment? Some say that women are conditioned to accept lesser working conditions and compensation; I think this is bullshit because I know plenty of highly ambitious women who have gotten great jobs by busting ass, not taking shit, and never settling for less.

3. Men are more likely to ask their employers for a pay raise (sort of).
While I was researching I found what I believe to be the missing 7%: One's willingness to ask their employers for more money. A study done in 2007 found that men are more likely to ask for more money. The pay difference this creates? 7.4% more. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...072900827.html. They are also more likely to ask for promotions and higher-paying positions in the same field. When crunching numbers it is easy to forget the psychological factors at work. Interestingly, the opposite is true if you frame the question differently. When telling people that they can "ask for more" as opposed to "negotiate for more," women are actually MORE likely than men to seek a pay raise. https://www.med.upenn.edu/gastro/doc...gotiation..pdf

So there you have it, there is no wage gap. Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

A side note- despite whoring out cases like common pimps, the AAUW has helped a lot of women with very real sexual harassment and discrimination. They are good people at the end of the day even if I don't agree with some of their methods.

[RickFLM4]

Can't say I read all that but I am thankful that I've never been invited to a gender reveal party.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Can't say I read all that but I am thankful that I've never been invited to a gender reveal party.

Haha, if you ever are, pack a flask. You have to put up with two other family's crazy relatives over crappy food.

[UncleWede]

So, a gender reveal party isn't where you all go, get drunk, then take off your clothes and "reveal" what gender you are?

I've been doing it wrong all these years. No wonder I never get invited to more than one per family

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

So, a gender reveal party isn't where you all go, get drunk, then take off your clothes and "reveal" what gender you are?

I've been doing it wrong all these years. No wonder I never get invited to more than one per family

Nah, you're thinking of a bonfire party. Or a family reunion if you come from certain parts of the south.

[csu87]

Someone smoked a little too much weed the other night...

[smrtypants44]

My view is this: As a male I don't think I am qualified to be able to tell any woman the discrimination that they feel they face in the workplace does not exist. So therefore I will do anything within my power to make sure I don't perpetuate any discrimination within my organization.

And I feel that it is ridiculous for someone who is not discriminated against to tell someone else that the discrimination that they feel is not valid. Like...how would you know?

[Maestro]

As a person who hired people and hired lots of people both men and women as well as minorities. I work for companies who provides wage guideline for a particular jobs, and I never seen where it said women and minorities should be paid x and white guy gets y. Every job has based salaries and ranage I am allowed to start with and it usually starts there and negotiate up. My goal was never to hire someone for as little as I could, but I was to keep them from making more than I was allowed for a position. I will say I worked in the high tech world and I know it is a little different, and I always saw the wages scales ranges for jobs in the company, most companies would usual make those wages scales ranages public in the company.

Here is my experience, some people come in and set a low starting wage for themselves and most times the employer jumps on this verse giving them the minimum of the position. The companies/HR feeling is if someone will take $20K for a job that pays $30K guess what many times person get the $20K or maybe a little more. You would be surprise how many times someone comes in asking or willing to accept less than what a job pays. I personally come in high and fight to keep it from going down from my starting point.

I had one situation where a person who I did not hire got transfer to my department and I notice he was way under paid compared to others who worked for me and I attempted to get his pay where it should be, and he found out during the process he was under paid and got upset with me. After all said, I basically told him it was his fault he was paid less not me, the company or the others who work for me who negotiated a much better pay. I even had a person I had to pay more than me to get him to come to work for the company, he had a skill set we really needed.

The moral of this story, if woman want to be paid more they need to negotiate better and not accept the lower starting point. I only had one women actually negotiate the starting part, all the other accepted what was initially offered.

On a more direct personal note. My wife decided to get back in to the workforce after spending time at home with our young kids she got an offer from a company which really wanted her and she could have asked for anything. She decide to take less money, but also less work hours, working from home and a few other non pay things. She negotiate this and got what she wanted overall which was to set her own work schedule, but she would be seen as making less then men. Today kids are grown and gone she is full time and make way more than most and negotiate her pay back up and still works when she wants and from home. It is not always about money.

Politicians, want everyone to think the is wage gap it is being done on purpose by companies so you need the government to fix it. This whole equal pay for equal job is BS, it basically makes ever job a union job and the good and bad get the same pay so you better off being a bad worker since you will never make more than the person next to you. The wage gap is cause by people not willing to negotiate their pay. I asked my 3 nieces if they negotiate their stating pay at their jobs and non of them did and I asked why, and they though they were not allowed, I asked them who told them this, they said no one they just assume this is how it works. On the other had my son negotiate the wage for every job he has had and even goes back later and asked for more.

[Delta0311]

Man tend to make more then women because we tend to go into higher paying fields or into dangerous jobs that warrant higher pay; firefighter, lineman, etc. Also man tend to be more willing to do OT.

At my job (IT) when I need to bring someone in they get a salary rate based on the position and not based on if they have a penis or vagina.

The wage gap is just bitching from feminist who can't get ahead in life because they chose majors that earned them a permanent spot on the unemployment line.

[sygazelle]

You had me at gender reveal party.

I'm dating myself, but our gender reveal party was in the delivery room for both of our kids.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

You had me at gender reveal party.

I'm dating myself, but our gender reveal party was in the delivery room for both of our kids.

LAMO I didn't notice this was his opening line.. No wonder he's discussing the BS gender gap.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by smrtypants44

My view is this: As a male I don't think I am qualified to be able to tell any woman the discrimination that they feel they face in the workplace does not exist. So therefore I will do anything within my power to make sure I don't perpetuate any discrimination within my organization.

And I feel that it is ridiculous for someone who is not discriminated against to tell someone else that the discrimination that they feel is not valid. Like...how would you know?

So in your view, any time any woman (or anyone different than you) claims discrimination the claim is valid because unless you are just like them it is impossible to smell bullshit even when you are standing in it.

[bimmette]

I find it annoying when people who don't know how it feels to be discriminated against say one shouldn't feel offended or that they are imagining it.

I have been fortunate that salary has not been an issue for me but I can say that I have been in work environments when people have assumed I'm the secretary instead of the person in charge. I have also been a trainer and had people assume I'm the trainee because I'm female and appear younger.

I definitely believe there is a gender wage gap but women have to learn to speak up more and ask for equal pay.

[csu87]

Im gonna stay away from the actual topic of women paid x% of men, and whether or not there is nation wide discrimination, but I can tell you that in the big corporate world i was in, they actually would make it a point to pay women the same, or more, in an effort to "end" discrimination based on gender. They even had a big presentation that was mandatory company wide about how they were going to make an effort to promote women in the workforce, and it was implied that even if a women was slightly under-qualified compared to a male counterpart, she would get the promotion. Bunch of BS, IMO. After I left, I heard that one of my peers (Female with little experience compared to others at the same position) was promoted to a lead position.

As for salary negotiations, my wife is currently negotiating for a promotion, and our negotiating styles are completely different. Not saying its a male/female thing or just a personality thing, but I always shoot high and settle low, where she is content to shoot low and not have to negotiate. If we were to be going for the same position, I can guarantee I would be paid more than her based solely on this.

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by bimmette

I find it annoying when people who don't know how it feels to be discriminated against say one shouldn't feel offended or that they are imagining it.

I have been fortunate that salary has not been an issue for me but I can say that I have been in work environments when people have assumed I'm the secretary instead of the person in charge. I have also been a trainer and had people assume I'm the trainee because I'm female and appear younger.

I definitely believe there is a gender wage gap but women have to learn to speak up more and ask for equal pay.

That's not wage discrimination though.. When I was 23 and starting college I began applying for some part time jobs.. I was already in good shape and fresh out of the military but I had people ask me if I was over 18 a few times because I looked so young..

[bimmette]

Originally Posted by Delta0311

That's not wage discrimination though.. When I was 23 and starting college I began applying for some part time jobs.. I was already in good shape and fresh out of the military but I had people ask me if I was over 18 a few times because I looked so young..

Yes, I said I was fortunate that I have been paid fairly. But it's obvious to me that it happens to others.

[EALm4]

explains everything

[eluded]

This is a great thread. Doesn't matter whether you're male or female I can outsource you and save 80% of costs.

[zx10guy]

The whole salary discussion is one of those taboo subjects which gets perpetuated within companies as there are written or unwritten rules against discussing compensation among employees. I find many times people in general are not aware of what they're worth because of this. I know when I started my career climb I didn't know what the going market rate was for the position I was in. I only realized what I should have been paid when I talked to a colleague on a government project working for another contracting company. I was working for a large defense contractor and thought getting a 6-7% raise was great until I interviewed with the contracting company of said colleague. They offered me 37% more than my current salary WITH the 6-7% raise already factored in. Also the benefits were incrementally better. So the overall package was significantly better than what I was receiving.

Since getting the proper market "adjustment", I haven't negotiated my salary with the subsequent job changes I made. I was lucky at various companies I got raises I felt fair with the contributions I've made. I always focused on the job and if I would be happy in the position over outright pay. Many employers would ask what I wanted first and I always defer that discussion till later. My view is if I don't like the position, why bother talking compensation to just walk away? This MO I have been following has served me well. I'm actually in the process of interviewing for a position at another company right now. We've gotten to the salary and benefits part. This is the first time I've negotiated my salary in years. Due to various reasons, I decided to push for a higher salary this time. I gave this company a salary range which the upper end was shooting high to see if they would go for it and a low range which is what I wanted to even consider the move. They came back at the low range which is what I thought might happen. Had I told them the low end was what I wanted, I was certain they would have come back with a lower number and I would have to negotiate up or fight for the top end. This way, I got what I wanted and the company felt they got a "bargain."

I also feel that many people don't interview or test the waters enough. Even though you may not be interested in making a job move or are extremely happy with your current job, it is good to periodically see what's out there. You not only see what the market is currently paying but you might run across that incrementally better job. Plus it keeps your interviewing skills sharp.

On the subject of women in the work force, I can say honestly, the best managers I have had were women. I actually left a job when a former female manager who I really loved working for asked me to come on board.

Originally Posted by Maestro

As a person who hired people and hired lots of people both men and women as well as minorities. I work for companies who provides wage guideline for a particular jobs, and I never seen where it said women and minorities should be paid x and white guy gets y. Every job has based salaries and ranage I am allowed to start with and it usually starts there and negotiate up. My goal was never to hire someone for as little as I could, but I was to keep them from making more than I was allowed for a position. I will say I worked in the high tech world and I know it is a little different, and I always saw the wages scales ranges for jobs in the company, most companies would usual make those wages scales ranages public in the company.

Here is my experience, some people come in and set a low starting wage for themselves and most times the employer jumps on this verse giving them the minimum of the position. The companies/HR feeling is if someone will take $20K for a job that pays $30K guess what many times person get the $20K or maybe a little more. You would be surprise how many times someone comes in asking or willing to accept less than what a job pays. I personally come in high and fight to keep it from going down from my starting point.

I had one situation where a person who I did not hire got transfer to my department and I notice he was way under paid compared to others who worked for me and I attempted to get his pay where it should be, and he found out during the process he was under paid and got upset with me. After all said, I basically told him it was his fault he was paid less not me, the company or the others who work for me who negotiated a much better pay. I even had a person I had to pay more than me to get him to come to work for the company, he had a skill set we really needed.

The moral of this story, if woman want to be paid more they need to negotiate better and not accept the lower starting point. I only had one women actually negotiate the starting part, all the other accepted what was initially offered.

On a more direct personal note. My wife decided to get back in to the workforce after spending time at home with our young kids she got an offer from a company which really wanted her and she could have asked for anything. She decide to take less money, but also less work hours, working from home and a few other non pay things. She negotiate this and got what she wanted overall which was to set her own work schedule, but she would be seen as making less then men. Today kids are grown and gone she is full time and make way more than most and negotiate her pay back up and still works when she wants and from home. It is not always about money.

Politicians, want everyone to think the is wage gap it is being done on purpose by companies so you need the government to fix it. This whole equal pay for equal job is BS, it basically makes ever job a union job and the good and bad get the same pay so you better off being a bad worker since you will never make more than the person next to you. The wage gap is cause by people not willing to negotiate their pay. I asked my 3 nieces if they negotiate their stating pay at their jobs and non of them did and I asked why, and they though they were not allowed, I asked them who told them this, they said no one they just assume this is how it works. On the other had my son negotiate the wage for every job he has had and even goes back later and asked for more.

[Germanauto]

There is truth when people say that qualified women do sometimes make less than equally qualified men, so you can't write off such concerns completely. However, there are so many other factors at play that you can't paint it with a broad brush. That's why I can't stand brain dead far left zealots who keep touting this "78 cents to the dollar" whatever BS. These people have never worked a real job and don't understand all the other variables that come into play. Sounds like that dumb drunk woman was one of those. Why ruin somebody's party by politicizing shit? Seriously, who does that.

I reminds me of how in medical school we once had a seminar where the lecturer was implying that fewer women are in high-earning specialties due primarily to sexism. This clown was full of it and had an agenda. A couple brave students pointed out that women tend to want to have children by a certain age and want to take care of those children too, which is why they usually go into less demanding specialties which require fewer years of training and less demanding hours. Additionally, women tend to be more emotional and less technical, and thus, prefer specialties like Pediatrics or Family Med rather than something like Surgery. I couldn't believe that even after undergrad I was being subjected to these losers with a Ph.D. next to their name trying to indoctrinate us with their agenda.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

There is truth when people say that qualified women do sometimes make less than equally qualified men, so you can't write off such concerns completely. However, there are so many other factors at play that you can't paint it with a broad brush. That's why I can't stand brain dead far left zealots who keep touting this "78 cents to the dollar" whatever BS. These people have never worked a real job and don't understand all the other variables that come into play. Sounds like that dumb drunk woman was one of those. Why ruin somebody's party by politicizing shit? Seriously, who does that.

I reminds me of how in medical school we once had a seminar where the lecturer was implying that fewer women are in high-earning specialties due primarily to sexism. This clown was full of it and had an agenda. A couple brave students pointed out that women tend to want to have children by a certain age and want to take care of those children too, which is why they usually go into less demanding specialties which require fewer years of training and less demanding hours. Additionally, women tend to be more emotional and less technical, and thus, prefer specialties like Pediatrics or Family Med rather than something like Surgery. I couldn't believe that even after undergrad I was being subjected to these losers with a Ph.D. next to their name trying to indoctrinate us with their agenda.

Your college story reminded me of a situation at my college. It was an engineering class where you all work in groups. You're given a problem and you have to design a solution along with give an oral presentation on why your solution is the best. Just like what would happen in a real world business situation. This group nominated a female student in their group to be the presenter in front of a panel of college professors. When she was done, one of the professors got up and barked at her saying do you think we're going to give your group special consideration because you're a woman? The professors were all in shock by the outburst. Not sure what happened after. Incidents like this brings up the whole debate about tenure.

[jmg]

Just because women are supposedly paid less doesn't mean there would be more women in the work force, so your basic argument doesn't hold water. Not every business wants to hire the cheapest. They will pay competitively for who they feel are the most skilled/talented. Men are viewed as more skilled/talented/qualified than a similarly skilled/talented/qualified woman simply because of their sex. I don't think it happens all the time, but it does happen. It's real, I've witnessed it. The problem is, salary is entirely subjective. We can't tell an employer that they have to pay men and women equally because, in truth, even men aren't paid equally. It's all about how valuable that person is to the company, how they negotiate their salary, and the demand for that person by other employers. There is no universal gauge, so how do we say woman x is the same as man x? Besides, this is not a workforce issue. This is a social issue that also takes place in the workforce. We are not going to solve gender bias by fixing women's pay, just like we don't solve racism with equal opportunity. It might help, but what we really have to change is our core values. Easier said than done.