[The Choosey begger]

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2017/04/09...me-track-days/

[larryn]

GVC chapter knows their shit and run an awesome event. Unless teeh devices can be completely defeated, I 100% agree with them.

I went into a chassis malfunction on a right hand high speed and high-G sweeper and my car went into immediate limp mode with a car right on my tail. I have no idea how I didn't get tagged. These systems are not safe at HPDEs.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

does this inrease my resale down the road lol

[roastbeef]

you can't turn that crap completely off? that doesn't make sense.

[xQx]

MISLEADING HEADLINE ALERT.

I was going to say that's utter bullshit. Drivers are far more unpredictable than any electronics. Especially the line "even if these systems may be disabled by the driver." THAT'S BULLSHIT!!!

But the headline is misleading. They're being banned from High Performance DRIVER EDUCATION sessions.

Fair enough a driver education company doesn't want to force its drivers to get behind the wheel of a car and throw it around a corner at the limit of it's physical ability (physics are predictable) with the added complication that the computer might intervene and decide it's in everyone's best interests that it emergency brakes one wheel.

Originally Posted by larryn

GVC chapter knows their shit and run an awesome event. Unless these devices can be completely defeated, I 100% agree with them.

But they're saying 'even if they CAN be completely defeated' - quote:

Because there is so much uncertainty about how these systems behave in a variety of conditions, GVC have decided to ban all vehicles equipped with Automatic Emergency Braking and/or Lane Keeping Assistance systems (or their equivalent) for use in our HPDE events, even if these systems may be disabled by the driver.

So yeah, if they were banning the cars from the track because they're unpredictable, I'd be up in arms. But they're not. They're banning them from high performance driver education - where the instructor needs to be able to rely on the car responding in a particular way to a particular input - and a system that has the capability (and tendency) to apply full-breaking to one wheel out of four at a whim - would probably lead to the situation where an instructor has just instructed a learner race driver to spin his M4 into a guard rail. Even if I could see that it was disabled in NCS Expert, I'm not sure I'd have the confidence to risk someone else's car like that.

My own car, sure. And if you're banning me from a track because my car is unpredictable - f*ck you! I AM THE ONE WHO IS UNPREDICTABLE! ... but that's not what's being done here - despite the headline which insinuates it.

[otay]

Another perspective:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...its-trackdays/

My perspective: don't buy a car with that shite. Just a ordered a 340i with 6MT, but no Driver Assistance Plus package. It's the least automated version.

[AtlasM]

Originally Posted by otay

Another perspective:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...its-trackdays/

My perspective: don't buy a car with that shite. Just a ordered a 340i with 6MT, but no Driver Assistance Plus package. It's the least automated version.

I'm shocked that an article written by Jack Baruth isn't full of unnecessarily fancy wording, because he so often loves to use a 5 dollar word when a 50 cent one will do.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by larryn

GVC chapter knows their shit and run an awesome event. Unless teeh devices can be completely defeated, I 100% agree with them.

I went into a chassis malfunction on a right hand high speed and high-G sweeper and my car went into immediate limp mode with a car right on my tail. I have no idea how I didn't get tagged. These systems are not safe at HPDEs.

My M4 went into limp mode at Buttonwillow back in October. But it wasn't from the Driver Assistance Plus Package that I have which includes Lane Departure Warning and Front Collision Alert, it was because I went on track with 3/8 of a tank of gas with a range of 43 miles and got fuel starvation coming off the last corner onto the straight (CCW). I noticed the fuel level as we were in line to enter the track, mentioned it to my instructor, and he said "You'll probably be fine". This was on the third session of the day, just after lunch, and it was the first time I had the car on track in an event with two 20 minute sessions in the morning and afternoon. Not yet having learned the fuel consumption during a track day with this car, I should have refueled at lunch time, something I did the next day and all weekend track sessions after that.

I've had 11 track days with my car in less than 11 months, including Nurburgring Nordschleife, Circuit Park Zandvoort, Spa Francorchamps, two separate weekends at Buttonwillow and two separate weekends at Laguna Seca. This package and those options never caused my car to "behave in unpredictable and undesirable ways on a racetrack."

[mc3456]

Since this was absent from the forum, I thought I would post it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/11/b...d-from-bmwcca/

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by xQx

But the headline is misleading. They're being banned from High Performance DRIVER EDUCATION sessions.

Fair enough a driver education company doesn't want to force its drivers to get behind the wheel of a car and throw it around a corner at the limit of it's physical ability (physics are predictable) with the added complication that the computer might intervene and decide it's in everyone's best interests that it emergency brakes one wheel.

The ban was put in place by a particular chapter of the BMW Car Club of America for the HPDEs that they run at Watkins Glen. BMW CCA Chapters put on HPDEs (High Performance Driving Education) at local tracks. They are not a "driver education company". As it relates specifically to HPDEs, BMW CCA is a group of BMW enthusiasts who like to track their cars. The BMW CCA HPDE format is highly structured, with an instructor in the car, whose goal is to safely teach you how to drive your car on the track. Students are grouped based on experience and ability, with novices starting in D group, intermediate drivers in C and B groups, and the most experienced and skillful drivers in A group. There are classroom sessions usually before or after every track session, and the day is generally broken up into two 20 minute track sessions in the morning, a lunch break, and two 20 minute track sessions in the afternoon. Instructors are trained by other BMW CCA instructors in special Instructor Training Sessions and are usually people who have worked their way up from D group to A group (and sometimes an A+ group) and have demonstrated the skill and the aptitude to be able to teach new drivers.

What I described is in no way the same way a "driver education company" operates, which in the US, is a company that primarily teaches teenagers how to drive a car. Driver education companies have to be licensed, with licensed instructors, including passing an exam, with in-car training on how to teach new students how to drive.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but in regards to driver education companies and HPDEs, they are two separate things.

I agree that current BMWs with Lane Departure Warning and Front Collision Avoidance, systems that can be defeated by simply pushing a button to turn them off, should not be banned from an HPDE because someone in charge doesn't understand how they work and how they can be defeated.

[Falafel Combo]

April fools joke?

[Pic18]

Check the Track/autocross section as it is being discussed there.

[Bigsurprise]

My salesman just told me that yesterday morning. I was surprised. Is this going to be a growing trend?

[SD ///M4]

There is a longer thread on this in the F8X M3/M4 forum, in the Track subforum: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1372416

The latest update is that the GVC Chief Instructor replied with this statement when queried by e-mail by a member who was already signed up for an upcoming HPDE:

"I am painfully aware of the controversy this decision has caused. Rest assured that BMW's will be exempt from the ban, and an announcement to that effect will be sent out later today."

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by mc3456

Since this was SO conspicuously absent from the forum, I thought I would post it...

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/11/b...d-from-bmwcca/

It wasn't conspicuously absent, it's being discussed in the appropriate Track subforum after being posted at 11:00 AM PDT: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1372416.

It was also posted on the General BMW yesterday at 7:19 PM PDT: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1373136

[agent]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but in regards to driver education companies and HPDEs, they are two separate things.

QFT.


The prudent course of action here is to wait and see what the BMW CCA (as in, the National Office) has to say before giving this story any more traction.

[agent]

From the R&T article:

BMW has issued the following comment to R&T regarding the Genesee Valley CCA's Banning of cars with driver aids on track:

The Genesee Valley BMW CCA Chapter created and published an unauthorized policy banning BMW's with Driver Aids from participating in HPDEs. The national BMW CCA office does not share their opinion and is discussing the issue with the chapter.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...its-trackdays/

[Flying Ace]

Impact is pretty low right now. I believe they're talking about the level 2 automations that's coming into the new 7 series. The big one that's troublesome will be the lane keeping automation feature that'll actually turn the wheel for you...

The current Active Driving Assistant as part of the Driving Assistance Package Plus only has one of these features, the low-speed collision detection stop feature.

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by agent

From the R&T article:

BMW has issued the following comment to R&T regarding the Genesee Valley CCA's Banning of cars with driver aids on track:

The Genesee Valley BMW CCA Chapter created and published an unauthorized policy banning BMW's with Driver Aids from participating in HPDEs. The national BMW CCA office does not share their opinion and is discussing the issue with the chapter.

That must have been added today because it wasn't there when I read that article. I was aware that National was looking at it and I suspected that this was the case.

EDIT: Updated R&T article: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...aids-on-track/

Bottom line, issue resolved.

[Invictus]

If BMW starts making all it's cars with those features, the BMWCCA - if it doesn't adapt - will wither like a mean old man, refusing to recognize the future.

Some other club that allows manual adjustment of those features will come along. And that other club will be big, famous and important.

BMWCCA will be an "oldies" BMW club with vanishing relevance.

[Professor///M]

Originally Posted by mc3456

Since this was absent from the forum, I thought I would post it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/11/b...d-from-bmwcca/

That's weird considering they are features that may be easily shut off... simply push buttons. The X5 has a more complicated screen to deactivate these features, but ours are super simple.

[SD ///M4]

Read the thread in the Track subforum.

Updated R&T article: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...aids-on-track/

Issue resolved.