[slubu]

Ok folks, here is my attempt at giving back to the E90post community. My first bimmerfest, and I was very impressed - great place to go. Most of the major tuners were there and I got a chance to speak to most of them, some in depth. For me personally the MSD81 DME was a major concern, so I talked about that with everyone. Here are my thoughts, recollections and impressions. Please take any technical info I regurgitate with a grain of salt - I do not have any understanding of this stuff. Also, I disclaim the accuracy of what I report, as I may have heard some things wrong or may not remember them correctly. Nonetheless, here is my best attempt:

Terry and the JB
Very nice guy. He was at a booth with HP Autowerks. Terry does a great job keeping everyone informed of what he is up to, what products are coming out, etc. on his message board. Other than finally meeting him in person, nothing more to report. He states the JB1 works with the new DME MSD81, the JB2 is close to working, and that's all for now.

Shiv and the V3
Got to meet Shiv today, very nice guy. He was doing an upgrade on a customer's car from V2 to V3. Didn't get to talk to him much, but asked him about the DME MSD81. He stated he should get his hands on one in the next few weeks, and was confident he can work around it. The measures BMW has taken, per Shiv, were to measure impedance and the such. This applies more to the JB line of tunes, but generally to all piggybacks. He went into some more technical stuff, and while way over my head, it is good to see the person we are trusting our cars to knows his stuff. Kudos.

AA and the Processor
I posted this before, but they worried the hell out of me regarding the DME MSD81. While every other tuner, whether flash based or piggybacked based has been cautious, warning others, stating to most to wait, AA is somehow confident their tune not only works, but is not detectable. More troublesome is that they have not changed the map in the processor at all. Somehow, the boost, impedance, torque or whatever other checks the new MSD81 has cannot detect this piggy. While they could easily be 100% right about this, it just seems very suspect in my opinion.

Jeff and the SSTT
Met Jeff today (I think, unless there are 2 Jeffs working at Eurobahn). Very nice guy. Said the SSTT is undetectable to the new DME MSD81. However, they have only tested this on the 135, and not the 335. EDIT: They have tested this on the 335.

Jim Conforti and the Shark Edit/Injector
Extremely nice guy. Answered all my questions and obviously has great knowledge about this. I'll be very brief here, as he has summarized already what he has told me, but basically the piggy's are all screwed according to Jim C. There will be a code stored with no way around. This will be through the FATSA system whereby the SA's never see it, but the code is transferred to BMW AG via your keyfob when you bring it in to service. Later, your warranty is voided. My understanding was with the Shark Edit, he will not provide a base map of his own - you start with the BMW stock map and can go from there. His Shark Injector map is at 12psi, and he gained 80 hp and 100 ft-lb torque. I could be wrong, but I do think that is what he told me. This is at 91 octane. He wasn't kidding about changing the tuning world folks (as stated in the Shark Edit thread). Jim, if you are reading this, please please please get that MSD81 figured out. The 335 is in its early years and you will have years of $ to make with this new DME. He did mention to me that he doesn't mess with the flash counter - not sure how it stays undetectable then but, in all honesty, I trust this man. Works on Euro DMEs.

Steve Dinan and the Dinan Flash
Well, I will be honest and say before today, I thought the Dinan flash was overpriced. Not so anymore. First I spoke to Scott @ Dinan who was very knowledgeable. He stated a few things: 1) no XI suspension upgrade; not possible as nobody produces shocks for that car; 2) works on Euro DMEs; 3) they require an oil cooler on stage 3 because they are supposedly pushing the limit; 4) with regards the MSD81 DME - it is their #1 priority. They have people working day and night because if they don't get it they stand to lose a ton of money (they flash now 200 cars/month). They just need to crack the encryption to get in, the software is already written; 5) Exhaust change won't void your warranty.

Next, I sat in on Steve Dinan's presentation on tuning the 335/135. Wow. I can't even recall everything I learned. They employ 70 people. He stated a lot of very interesting things. First, after 14psi the turbos are no longer making more power, rather just heat. Adding an intercooler by itself, or a CAI by itself does nothing - you must adjust the software to take advantage. He has blown a turbo or two trying to test the limits. Historically, BMW has left a 50% cushion on their drivetrains, give or take 5%. That means that the 335, with 300lb-ft of torque, will go up to 450lb-ft of torque before breaking. That is why Dinan's S3 goes to 429lb-ft...they don't want to get to close. Another interesting point was that Steve said the computers are getting way too complicated, and they may be forced to go to piggybacks too, as early as this year. I asked him about the MSD81 DME, and he said they have one, have it open, and are working on it. He estimates 2-5 months from now until they get it cracked. I asked him about leasing and the flash, and while he said it shouldn't be a problem, he was not very convincing of that. Basically he said in most cases the dealership would not have a problem, but then he stated something along the lines of worst case scenario, you always have the option of buying the car. I didn't like that. Finally, with regards to warranty, he says they let BMW know of the flash, that part of the car's warranty is immediately voided, and Dinan covers that. When an issue comes up, either Dinan pays or BMW depending on the area that was damaged. He commented a lot about the "message boards" and people claiming they have 15psi or 18psi. He mentioned piggybacks are not real tuning as they just change the impedence to trick the ECU. He mentioned a real tune controls not only boost, but timing and fuel. (Isn't that what Shiv and Helix do?). Also, he mentioned that the new ECU measures torque as the method of triggering the fault store code, and that old ECUs that receive the new Progman will be monitoring boost levels to store such a fault code - and that BMW dealerships are told to upload the new Progman on all service visits.


Hope that helps! If I think of anything else I will post.

[slubu]

By the way, I do not have enough knowledge to know who is correct on this, but every flash tuner stated the new DME was to deter piggybacks, and every piggyback vendor stated the new DME was to deter flashes. Thought that was funny (but expected).

[Jeff@Eurobahn.us]

Nice meeting you today! There are two Jeff's but it was me there today
If I gave you the impression we had not tested the 335 post march build that is not correct. We have a tech from dealer with a late March build who has checked it and found nothing stored

Man is it midnight already? I am going to bed!

Jeff

[Jeff@Eurobahn.us]

Originally Posted by slubu

By the way, I do not have enough knowledge to know who is correct on this, but every flash tuner stated the new DME was to deter piggybacks, and every piggyback vendor stated the new DME was to deter flashes. Thought that was funny (but expected).

Actually the new system is there so that BMW doesn't have to pay warranty claims for blown parts caused by aftermarket hardware or software. Who can blame them

Night

Jeff

[HERR FSTIR]

Originally Posted by slubu

Also, he mentioned that the new ECU measures torque as the method of triggering the fault store code, and that old ECUs that receive the new Progman will be monitoring boost levels to store such a fault code - and that BMW dealerships are told to upload the new Progman on all service visits.

Great job of summarizing. Dinan's statement that BMW intends to have dealerships upload the new progman on all vehicles may pose some interesting problems. After all, it is my car. Can't I demand that they not upload any DME updates? But if I ask them not to, then will I lose my warranty? Catch-22.

[335i_Danny]

One of the best informational posts I have ever read! Thanks for posting and sharing.

I personally can't seen how the ECU stores fault codes after you pull the battery unless BMW built in an alternate power source (similar to CMOS on a motherboar - I hope they didn't). I had an ITR that threw codes every day, but Acura was none the wiser when i cleared them, even though I had a catless exhaust, intake, headers, and computer.

[SLV335I]

I hope someone that knows a BMW SA really well can ask if its true about the dealer updating all the cars that come in for service.

[Dr_Dirt]

Originally Posted by 335i_Danny

One of the best informational posts I have ever read! Thanks for posting and sharing.

I personally can't seen how the ECU stores fault codes after you pull the battery unless BMW built in an alternate power source (similar to CMOS on a motherboar - I hope they didn't). I had an ITR that threw codes every day, but Acura was none the wiser when i cleared them, even though I had a catless exhaust, intake, headers, and computer.

Non-volatile ram doesn't need power to retain its memory i.e. USB flash drives.
Once its written it will stay that way indefinitely or until its formatted or erased.

[335i_Danny]

Originally Posted by Dr_Dirt

Non-volatile ram doesn't need power to retain its memory i.e. USB flash drives.
Once its written it will stay that way indefinitely or until its formatted or erased.

Wow, did the really have the foresight to put SS memory to hold codes in the ECU? If so, I'm sure someone can find a way to clear it (at least I hope).

But like I posted in another thread, I just tip my Service Manager well and I never have problems, mods or otherwise.

Thanks for the info.

-Dan

[M3EST]

Incredible report.Thanks.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by slubu

I'll be very brief here, as he has summarized already what he has told me, but basically the piggy's are all screwed according to Jim C. There will be a code stored with no way around. This will be through the FATSA system whereby the SA's never see it, but the code is transferred to BMW AG via your keyfob when you bring it in to service. Later, your warranty is voided.

Give the SA your spare keyfob.

[5soko]

^^ haha was about to say the same thing.

[slubu]

Originally Posted by Jeff@Eurobahn.us

Nice meeting you today! There are two Jeff's but it was me there today
If I gave you the impression we had not tested the 335 post march build that is not correct. We have a tech from dealer with a late March build who has checked it and found nothing stored

Man is it midnight already? I am going to bed!

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I edited the original post.

Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR

Great job of summarizing. Dinan's statement that BMW intends to have dealerships upload the new progman on all vehicles may pose some interesting problems. After all, it is my car. Can't I demand that they not upload any DME updates? But if I ask them not to, then will I lose my warranty? Catch-22.

Obviously you could refuse, but that would set off some red flags. It is akin to saying you have something to hide. A more interesting question is if SAs are mandated to upload this Progman, they may not have the discretion to refuse to do so. Although again, it is your car so I can't see how they can force you to do it.

Originally Posted by 335i_Danny

One of the best informational posts I have ever read! Thanks for posting and sharing.

I personally can't seen how the ECU stores fault codes after you pull the battery unless BMW built in an alternate power source (similar to CMOS on a motherboar - I hope they didn't). I had an ITR that threw codes every day, but Acura was none the wiser when i cleared them, even though I had a catless exhaust, intake, headers, and computer.

Thanks sir, glad to contribute. With regards to the ECU storing fault codes, Steve Dinan did address this. He said there was X amount of RAM/Flash memory (can't remember which one) that BMW has in the DME that stores all this information.

Originally Posted by M3EST

Incredible report.Thanks.

[slubu]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Give the SA your spare keyfob.

Yes, this is pretty smart and Shiv mentioned the same thing. My question is, on the drive over with your spare keyfob, wouldn't that keyfob be updated too? I guess what I'm asking is how does the keyfob have the information transmitted to it? For example, I have comfort access so my keyfob never goes into the ignition - is all the data wirelessly transmitted?

Thanks for the write up! Much appreicated.............

I'll wait for something on shark edit........ Sounds really good.

I'll hold off on installing my AA right now and keep SSTT for now.. until of course.....

sharkedit!

[slubu]

Originally Posted by GAMEOVR

Thanks for the write up! Much appreicated.............

I'll wait for something on shark edit........ Sounds really good.

I'll hold off on installing my AA right now and keep SSTT for now.. until of course.....

sharkedit!

Do you have the new DME?

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by slubu

Yes, this is pretty smart and Shiv mentioned the same thing. My question is, on the drive over with your spare keyfob, wouldn't that keyfob be updated too? I guess what I'm asking is how does the keyfob have the information transmitted to it? For example, I have comfort access so my keyfob never goes into the ignition - is all the data wirelessly transmitted?

If you have comfort access, you'll have to transport your extra keyfob hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar which had been kept on Funk and Wagnall's porch since noon that day.

[e90AW335i]

How do we find out what PROGman we have it our cars?

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by slubu

Ok folks, here is my attempt at giving back to the E90post community. My first bimmerfest, and I was very impressed - great place to go. Most of the major tuners were there and I got a chance to speak to most of them, some in depth. For me personally the MSD81 DME was a major concern, so I talked about that with everyone. Here are my thoughts, recollections and impressions. Please take any technical info I regurgitate with a grain of salt - I do not have any understanding of this stuff. Also, I disclaim the accuracy of what I report, as I may have heard some things wrong or may not remember them correctly. Nonetheless, here is my best attempt:

Terry and the JB
Very nice guy. He was at a booth with HP Autowerks. Terry does a great job keeping everyone informed of what he is up to, what products are coming out, etc. on his message board. Other than finally meeting him in person, nothing more to report. He states the JB1 works with the new DME MSD81, the JB2 is close to working, and that's all for now.

Shiv and the V3
Got to meet Shiv today, very nice guy. He was doing an upgrade on a customer's car from V2 to V3. Didn't get to talk to him much, but asked him about the DME MSD81. He stated he should get his hands on one in the next few weeks, and was confident he can work around it. The measures BMW has taken, per Shiv, were to measure impedance and the such. This applies more to the JB line of tunes, but generally to all piggybacks. He went into some more technical stuff, and while way over my head, it is good to see the person we are trusting our cars to knows his stuff. Kudos.

AA and the Processor
I posted this before, but they worried the hell out of me regarding the DME MSD81. While every other tuner, whether flash based or piggybacked based has been cautious, warning others, stating to most to wait, AA is somehow confident their tune not only works, but is not detectable. More troublesome is that they have not changed the map in the processor at all. Somehow, the boost, impedance, torque or whatever other checks the new MSD81 has cannot detect this piggy. While they could easily be 100% right about this, it just seems very suspect in my opinion.

Jeff and the SSTT
Met Jeff today (I think, unless there are 2 Jeffs working at Eurobahn). Very nice guy. Said the SSTT is undetectable to the new DME MSD81. However, they have only tested this on the 135, and not the 335. EDIT: They have tested this on the 335.

Jim Conforti and the Shark Edit/Injector
Extremely nice guy. Answered all my questions and obviously has great knowledge about this. I'll be very brief here, as he has summarized already what he has told me, but basically the piggy's are all screwed according to Jim C. There will be a code stored with no way around. This will be through the FATSA system whereby the SA's never see it, but the code is transferred to BMW AG via your keyfob when you bring it in to service. Later, your warranty is voided. My understanding was with the Shark Edit, he will not provide a base map of his own - you start with the BMW stock map and can go from there. His Shark Injector map is at 12psi, and he gained 80 hp and 100 ft-lb torque. I could be wrong, but I do think that is what he told me. This is at 91 octane. He wasn't kidding about changing the tuning world folks (as stated in the Shark Edit thread). Jim, if you are reading this, please please please get that MSD81 figured out. The 335 is in its early years and you will have years of $ to make with this new DME. He did mention to me that he doesn't mess with the flash counter - not sure how it stays undetectable then but, in all honesty, I trust this man. Works on Euro DMEs.

Steve Dinan and the Dinan Flash
Well, I will be honest and say before today, I thought the Dinan flash was overpriced. Not so anymore. First I spoke to Scott @ Dinan who was very knowledgeable. He stated a few things: 1) no XI suspension upgrade; not possible as nobody produces shocks for that car; 2) works on Euro DMEs; 3) they require an oil cooler on stage 3 because they are supposedly pushing the limit; 4) with regards the MSD81 DME - it is their #1 priority. They have people working day and night because if they don't get it they stand to lose a ton of money (they flash now 200 cars/month). They just need to crack the encryption to get in, the software is already written; 5) Exhaust change won't void your warranty.

Next, I sat in on Steve Dinan's presentation on tuning the 335/135. Wow. I can't even recall everything I learned. They employ 70 people. He stated a lot of very interesting things. First, after 14psi the turbos are no longer making more power, rather just heat. Adding an intercooler by itself, or a CAI by itself does nothing - you must adjust the software to take advantage. He has blown a turbo or two trying to test the limits. Historically, BMW has left a 50% cushion on their drivetrains, give or take 5%. That means that the 335, with 300lb-ft of torque, will go up to 450lb-ft of torque before breaking. That is why Dinan's S3 goes to 429lb-ft...they don't want to get to close. Another interesting point was that Steve said the computers are getting way too complicated, and they may be forced to go to piggybacks too, as early as this year. I asked him about the MSD81 DME, and he said they have one, have it open, and are working on it. He estimates 2-5 months from now until they get it cracked. I asked him about leasing and the flash, and while he said it shouldn't be a problem, he was not very convincing of that. Basically he said in most cases the dealership would not have a problem, but then he stated something along the lines of worst case scenario, you always have the option of buying the car. I didn't like that. Finally, with regards to warranty, he says they let BMW know of the flash, that part of the car's warranty is immediately voided, and Dinan covers that. When an issue comes up, either Dinan pays or BMW depending on the area that was damaged. He commented a lot about the "message boards" and people claiming they have 15psi or 18psi. He mentioned piggybacks are not real tuning as they just change the impedence to trick the ECU. He mentioned a real tune controls not only boost, but timing and fuel. (Isn't that what Shiv and Helix do?). Also, he mentioned that the new ECU measures torque as the method of triggering the fault store code, and that old ECUs that receive the new Progman will be monitoring boost levels to store such a fault code - and that BMW dealerships are told to upload the new Progman on all service visits.


Hope that helps! If I think of anything else I will post.

Hall of Fame Post Slubu. Thanks a lot man for all of the information you have contributed to the community. You had one hell of a day yesterday at Bimmerfest!

[jaaz]

Originally Posted by slubu

Steve Dinan and the Dinan Flash

...4) with regards the MSD81 DME - it is their #1 priority. They have people working day and night because if they don't get it they stand to lose a ton of money (they flash now 200 cars/month). They just need to crack the encryption to get in, the software is already written;...

...Also, he mentioned that the new ECU measures torque as the method of triggering the fault store code, and that old ECUs that receive the new Progman will be monitoring boost levels to store such a fault code - and that BMW dealerships are told to upload the new Progman on all service visits...

From the first paragraph, are we to assume that BMW has severed their relationship with Dinan with respect to the MSD81 DME, since Dinan is talking about "cracking the encryption to get in"? (Sorry if this has been answered before).

From the second paragraph, if this is indeed true, this seems inconsistent with Jeff's claim that the SSTT is unaffected (i.e., undetectable) by the new MSD81 DME. If the software unpgrade really does this, it seems carrying any and every current tuner on the market is a risk, for both pre-March build 335is and March-build 335is and forward.

Can anyone clarify? (or do we just don't know yet?)

[ybbiz34]

So I have a question, if the car is with the old DME is re-programmed to the torque limiting version 29.2 program, and you have the Dinan flash, isn't that program irrelevant? Won't the Dinan flash overwrite the BMW programming when it is re-applied?

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by jaaz

From the first paragraph, are we to assume that BMW has severed their relationship with Dinan with respect to the MSD81 DME, since Dinan is talking about "cracking the encryption to get in"? (Sorry if this has been answered before).Can anyone clarify? (or do we just don't know yet?)

Dinan has ALWAYS had to "crack" the encryption to tune. There is no severing of the relationship. The only relationship there is anyway is Dinan picking up the warranty, and that's still happening.

I don't know what people assumed the other parts of the "relationship" were?