[2.5-12]

evening guys,

I've got my room mate's 67k mile 09 328i 6-speed E90 and the engine sounds like absolute death:

sounds fine above 2,000 RPM.
sounds fine for 15 seconds or so after cold start
very down on power

new intake camshaft position sensor
new intake vanos solenoid

Any thoughts? Cleared all adaptations and reset as much as I could with BT pro. no change.

ordered a valve cover and ESS for this just in case, but would rather not do that if it's not the issue.

I've paged through dozens of forum posts and youtube videos on this code and can't find a single engine that sounds like this.

Thanks for any insight!

[frisbeeguy]

Is your valve cover leaking? As for the PCV, to check it, follow this: https://vanos-bmw.com/product/111275...53-11127548196
As for the P0012 code, replace the "non-return valve" for the intake side on the cylinder head...this part can also trigger the code. If the ESS, the new vanos solenoid, and the new non-return valve don't fix the code, then you have to look into issues with the actual intake camshaft (such as timing, hook seal rings, etc..)
Edit: If you have ISTA-D, when you get the fault code, don't erase it, just click it, then click "calculate test plan" ...it pretty much tells you exactly what to check (non-return valves are not mentioned, but those should be checked)

[Rickyshucks]

Hmm, I recently installed a 3 stage intake manifold (from a Canadian 323i w/ 2 disas - not sure if it different from the 330 3 stage..anyways) and my engine too sounds like a diesel now lol. Not sure what it is, gonna clean my maf and hope that helps

[2.5-12]

Originally Posted by frisbeeguy

Is your valve cover leaking? As for the PCV, to check it, follow this: https://vanos-bmw.com/product/111275...53-11127548196
As for the P0012 code, replace the "non-return valve" for the intake side on the cylinder head...this part can also trigger the code. If the ESS, the new vanos solenoid, and the new non-return valve don't fix the code, then you have to look into issues with the actual intake camshaft (such as timing, hook seal rings, etc..)
Edit: If you have ISTA-D, when you get the fault code, don't erase it, just click it, then click "calculate test plan" ...it pretty much tells you exactly what to check (non-return valves are not mentioned, but those should be checked)

my next course of action is pull the filter check (non return) valves and give them a good cleaning.

the valve cover is not leaking amazingly...

unfortunately I don't have ISTA. just INPA and BT pro.

Thanks for the reply

[2.5-12]

pulled the check valves, they looked pretty good but I flushed them with brake clean.

no change in run condition.

swapped solenoids. no change in run condition.

engine has correct power 5-7000rpm. no power down low (vanos problem for sure).

Do you think changing the Eccentric Shaft Sensor out will have any effect? car idles at an immaculate 600rpm but obviously sounds like total death..

I'm all out of ideas guys.

[frisbeeguy]

Replace the non-return valve, not just clean it. It may look clean, but the internal spring may not work properly, and that can trigger the fault. You can check the operation by sucking on it (it should feel easy to draw air through), but replacing it is a better idea to eliminate that as a problem. Otherwise replace the ESS and check the intake cam bearing (by removing the cam bearing cap)....If its grooved (like your finger nail can feel the depth change as you move it across the cam bearing ledge cap), then the hook ring seal/cylinder head can be the issue. Or the lifters can be the issue. I'd still recommend downloading ISTA and following the testing procedures it says. You can download it from bimmergeeks.net.....when pulling off the valvetronic unit (battery must still be attached to car) make sure to run the "ABL removing valvetronic" then after u run that, u can remove the valvetronic unit.....replace the components,inspect, etc watever ISTA says to do....to install it back in simply re-insert it then I think there's an ABL for installing the valvetronic unit,but I'm not sure....then u run the ABL to relearn end stops, clear old fault codes, then finally put the car key in 2nd position (terminal 15) leave it in that position for 1 minute then start the car and hope the noise is gone along with the fault code
If all of wat I said above fails then time to check coil packs (code P0012 issue should be solved by one of the procedures above)
Also check the coil pack values with INPA in the analog values section "rough running" and drive with the computer attached to the car....any time the value goes near the red zone, remember the cylinder # and for that cylinder (ideally all) replace coilpacks plus replace the spark plugs..otherwise then check/replace fuel injector.

[2.5-12]

ok, I bought some new OE non return valves.

still planning to hail mary and do the ESS when the new valve cover arrives too.

Thanks for taking the time to write!

[2.5-12]

No change with ESS replaced.

check valves are on order. Will report back when those have arrived and are installed

[frisbeeguy]

Just adding that I think your issue may be the timing chain/tensioner if the other stuff I said/you did do not fix the sound or the code....pulled this description off ECS Tuning's website for a VW, but it also applies to BMW:

"With no service interval to go by, you need to pay attention to the chains. The first symptom is noise in the timing system. The chains slap around because of worn tensioners and guides. The common sound is “marbles in a can.” Failed guides can cause the chains to jump, skip a tooth and potentially snap. Because the 2.0t is an interference motor, a snapped chain or one that has jumped a tooth means that valves can contact the pistons and cause catastrophic engine failure."

which means you'd need a new chain, tensioner, guide, etc...

[2.5-12]

Originally Posted by frisbeeguy

Just adding that I think your issue may be the timing chain/tensioner if the other stuff I said/you did do not fix the sound or the code....pulled this description off ECS Tuning's website for a VW, but it also applies to BMW:

"With no service interval to go by, you need to pay attention to the chains. The first symptom is noise in the timing system. The chains slap around because of worn tensioners and guides. The common sound is “marbles in a can.” Failed guides can cause the chains to jump, skip a tooth and potentially snap. Because the 2.0t is an interference motor, a snapped chain or one that has jumped a tooth means that valves can contact the pistons and cause catastrophic engine failure."

which means you'd need a new chain, tensioner, guide, etc...

contemplated but that would follow engine speed all the time. this is absolutely 100% perfect 15 seconds after cold start, then it stumbles and it starts with the idle rattle.

its definitely VVT system related, but just amiss on what is causing it that I have not yet replaced.

[2.5-12]

replaced the check valves with new OEM valves.

now it idles perfectly quiet, but I still get this marble noise at 1500rpm on the way up and down. still down on power.

has a code for COLD START CAM A OVER RETARDED. not a P0012 though.

so confused.

[frisbeeguy]

Eliminating the P0012 code is good

Here's a page to help diagnose P052B: https://www.autocodes.com/p052b_bmw.html

Since you already have 2 new solenoids, and have already replaced the ESS plus the intake camshaft position sensor, now is the time to remove the valve cover and check the intake bearing ledge (by removing the cap, and feel for a groove....and REALLY PRAY that you don't have one). If there are no grooves present, then proceed to replace the crankshaft position sensor and check the timing of the engine....yes it's a long tedious process....you might also as well replace the timing chain tensioner and guides if the condition is not good.

[CobraMarty]

"non-return valve" for the intake side on the cylinder head

What and where is this located?

[CobraMarty]

I think that I found them.
Are you referring to the VANOS check valve? located on the side of the engine accessed thru the wheel well with liner removed.

[JuniorB]

This sounds like your lifters are bleeding down, this engine is known for the lifters and was a sib I believe on this year of car. The reason it's different at 2k, the oil is pressurizing the lifters. I had a bad vanos solinoid, and never at any time make this noise, it's not a slapping either. These isn't a sensor in this car that if went bad, would make a noise like this.

[2.5-12]

Originally Posted by frisbeeguy

Eliminating the P0012 code is good

Here's a page to help diagnose P052B: https://www.autocodes.com/p052b_bmw.html

Since you already have 2 new solenoids, and have already replaced the ESS plus the intake camshaft position sensor, now is the time to remove the valve cover and check the intake bearing ledge (by removing the cap, and feel for a groove....and REALLY PRAY that you don't have one). If there are no grooves present, then proceed to replace the crankshaft position sensor and check the timing of the engine....yes it's a long tedious process....you might also as well replace the timing chain tensioner and guides if the condition is not good.

a faulty crank sensor I really feel would cause engine running issues at all RPM ranges. thing pulls hard and smooth all the way to redline, and yesterday I even got it to idle perfectly and quietly briefly.. that and the fact it came on so soon leads me to believe it is in and around the vanos/valvetronic ecosystem..

Talking myself out of that a little more every day though now what basically everything in the car is either new or has been checked with a working 328i...

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

"non-return valve" for the intake side on the cylinder head

What and where is this located?

two small screw in screeened check valves in the right side of the front of the cylinder head.

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

I think that I found them.
Are you referring to the VANOS check valve? located on the side of the engine accessed thru the wheel well with liner removed.

check valves yes, you do not need to take out the liner. i did mine top side in about 15 minutes with a torx T40.

Originally Posted by JuniorB

This sounds like your lifters are bleeding down, this engine is known for the lifters and was a sib I believe on this year of car. The reason it's different at 2k, the oil is pressurizing the lifters. I had a bad vanos solinoid, and never at any time make this noise, it's not a slapping either. These isn't a sensor in this car that if went bad, would make a noise like this.

Just had the cover off -- rather not do it again. grooving on what? the camshaft or the lifters?




swapped the VVT motor and cam sensor between my daily driver E91 328. no change.

I got intermittent throttle valve codes, and cam/crank correlation code briefly. also at one point just started idling like trash and threw random misfire, 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 misfire.

I consistently get the BMW specific inlet vanos code and a camshaft A code..

I'm having the room mate bring it to a reputable BMW indy this week. paying additional diagnostic sucks, but I'm at witt's end...

If it needs anything timing related, its cheaper for me to throw a new engine in it honestly, so not digging in to that pot of honey.

[frisbeeguy]

Just had the cover off -- rather not do it again. grooving on what? the camshaft or the lifters?

Grooving on the intake bearing ledge: http://www.tmwerkes.ca/bmw-n52n54-ca...earing-ledges/
Basically, the bearing ledge "holds" the camshaft....if it's grooved, which is caused by not changing the oil on time....or using the wrong oil/just unlucky....the metal rectangarings dig into the ledge and cause a loss of oil pressure. Yes, this only applies to 08 and below, but have heard of some 09 and above also being affected. The issue with the N52.....the bearing ledge is casted into the cylinder head....so that means if it is grooved, then you'd need a new cylinder head (which is a lot of money, and at that point might as well put in a salvage engine).

Could be lifters too like OP said....
http://www.rtsauto.com/bmw-e90-valve...ter-ticknoise/

Curious about what the BMW indy mechanic would say....

[2.5-12]

ahh, my terminology is out of date -- always just called those camshaft retaining caps on the older Mxx engines

this is a really late 2011, otherwise I would have suspected the early N52 oiling check valve issues etc.

probably wont pull it to check the cam caps, but I'll report back with what the indy says.

Hopefully something simple I just missed.. otherwise I guess maybe a used engine will be in his future! (after running this one till it pops just out of morbid curiosity. lol.

the car was serviced very well and NOT using the garbage BMW 5W30 luckily, so combine those records with the very clean, varnish free head AND the fact this started literally overnight leads me to be optimistic that is is not the 'bearing ledge' or something along those lines.

the rough running coincides with the VVT motor positioning it seems. manually wound the motor all the way to the open position (further from the motor), turned the key on and the car slammed the VVT back in to closed position. good sign for cold start (trying to make sure it knows the stop locations). cold starts awesome. the stumble and rattle starts when the VVT moves from low (closed) position to high (open) position seemingly. the VVT does move visibly in the valve cover.

very, very confusing.

I have read the vanos adjusters on the ends of the cams have a coil spring in them and they occasionally snap, causing the cam to not adjust properly. I almost suspect this at this point. I could see that happening all of the sudden, and causing the cam to be incorrectly timed (exacerbated by the VVT unit tossing a TON of timing at the engine at low engine speeds).

possibly worth unplugging the VVT motor near closed position to kill the lift in the mean time. that adjuster doesn't look like a horrible job, but time is running out with our weather here for wrenching on this on the driveway

[JuniorB]

Originally Posted by frisbeeguy

Grooving on the intake bearing ledge: http://www.tmwerkes.ca/bmw-n52n54-ca...earing-ledges/
Basically, the bearing ledge "holds" the camshaft....if it's grooved, which is caused by not changing the oil on time....or using the wrong oil/just unlucky....the metal rectangarings dig into the ledge and cause a loss of oil pressure. Yes, this only applies to 08 and below, but have heard of some 09 and above also being affected. The issue with the N52.....the bearing ledge is casted into the cylinder head....so that means if it is grooved, then you'd need a new cylinder head (which is a lot of money, and at that point might as well put in a salvage engine).

Could be lifters too like OP said....
http://www.rtsauto.com/bmw-e90-valve...ter-ticknoise/

Curious about what the BMW indy mechanic would say....

Actually the the grove isn't from oil, or different grades of oil. Bmw used a steel ring to keep oil pressure between the cam ledges, this ring wears overtime and causes a low power issue( famous with the n54). So when you have a steel ring against aluminum, it wears. There is a Teflon ring that replaces the steel when this happens, as well as replacing the ledges. This mainly happens on the intake side, you will have low power, but no metallic noises. Because it smooths out at higher rpms, sounds like it's oil related, now vanos codes may still be present if by flipping then dosent work. You may have an oil pump that's on its way out. There seems lack of oil , pressure to the top of the head. Before you run it anymore, drain the oil+ filter,,and let the oil settle, see if there is metals on the bottom. The more you run it like this, the more damage can occur.

[frisbeeguy]

Originally Posted by JuniorB

Actually the the grove isn't from oil, or different grades of oil. Bmw used a steel ring to keep oil pressure between the cam ledges, this ring wears overtime and causes a low power issue( famous with the n54). So when you have a steel ring against aluminum, it wears. There is a Teflon ring that replaces the steel when this happens, as well as replacing the ledges. This mainly happens on the intake side, you will have low power, but no metallic noises. Because it smooths out at higher rpms, sounds like it's oil related, now vanos codes may still be present if by flipping then dosent work. You may have an oil pump that's on its way out. There seems lack of oil , pressure to the top of the head. Before you run it anymore, drain the oil+ filter,,and let the oil settle, see if there is metals on the bottom. The more you run it like this, the more damage can occur.

But what I've been reading online is using wrong oil type or infrequently changing oil causes the steel ring to wear over time? It is also a design flaw. This only affects 07-08 of course....and there are still N52s past 100K miles with this steel ring still running....like if they're worn then they will trigger shadow codes.

[frisbeeguy]

Originally Posted by 2.5-12

NOT using the garbage BMW 5W30 luckily, so combine those records with the very clean, varnish free head AND the fact this started literally overnight leads me to be optimistic that is is not the 'bearing ledge' or something along those lines.

Just wondering why the BMW OEM 5W30 twinturbo oil is garbage? (cause I actually use that oil....lol)(https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...-oilchgkit6327)

[PhaseP]

Originally Posted by JuniorB

This sounds like your lifters are bleeding down, this engine is known for the lifters and was a sib I believe on this year of car. The reason it's different at 2k, the oil is pressurizing the lifters. I had a bad vanos solinoid, and never at any time make this noise, it's not a slapping either. These isn't a sensor in this car that if went bad, would make a noise like this.

It doesn't sound like lifters at all, much more clatter and chatter going on than lifter noise. Lifter noise is more like very periodic "tap, tap, tap, tap ...." and period changes proportional to engine speed. And it is not like you rev to 2K rpm it doesn't tick, and goes back to ticking below 2k rpm. Once one or more lifters have air trapped, they tick regardless of rpm, until air is purged from them (or one of them), and after that they don't make any noise.

Lifter tick also doesn't throw any codes at all.