[MysteryMeat]

My car is a 6MT with AA headers, BPC tune, PE, and charcoal delete and I will be adding 3IM pretty soon. I've been seeing a few posts about BPC's Alpha N tune lately and was wondering if anybody running it could give me some feedback on it. I would add it along with my 3IM retune.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by MysteryMeat

My car is a 6MT with AA headers, BPC tune, PE, and charcoal delete and I will be adding 3IM pretty soon. I've been seeing a few posts about BPC's Alpha N tune lately and was wondering if anybody running it could give me some feedback on it. I would add it along with my 3IM retune.

Unless you have a custom intake, there really isn’t a benefit. Just go with the maf based tune.

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Unless you have a custom intake, there really isn’t a benefit. Just go with the maf based tune.

So are you saying ... if someone has the basic K&N drop-in and Carbon filter delete ... deleting the MAF isn't worth it (ie. no real benefit)?

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by N52UNED

So are you saying ... if someone has the basic K&N drop-in and Carbon filter delete ... deleting the MAF isn't worth it (ie. no real benefit)?

I didn't notice one, and as far as I know BPC didn't advertise a power gain.

I know Hassmachine says that there was an increase in response and torque, but I don't personally remember that.

[hassmaschine]

I think its worth it if you dont have headers. Its a cheap and easy mod - but I still dont think it works well with headers (yet) until the O2 sensor tuning can be addressed. The adaptations will go wacky after about a week.

FWIW this is the same reason ESS couldn't make their supercharger work with headers (and also because at first they just cut the MAF wires and ran it in limp mode, lol).

[N52UNED]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I think its worth it if you dont have headers. Its a cheap and easy mod - but I still dont think it works well with headers (yet) until the O2 sensor tuning can be addressed. The adaptations will go wacky after about a week.

FWIW this is the same reason ESS couldn't make their supercharger work with headers (and also because at first they just cut the MAF wires and ran it in limp mode, lol).

Oh, so without headers it's more noticeable, correct?

I've been trying to dig up as much info as I can since you mentioned it on my Mod question thread. The only thing I've really found is that it lessens your MPG and BPC suggests not to do the MAF delete if that's a concern.

Do you know the power gains vs the lessened fuel economy? Personally I'm fine with more power and less MPG (which really goes hand and hand anyway) ... I'd just hate to lose like 10 mpg for a small gain.

[hassmaschine]

No, with headers it just doesnt work. The fuel trims get out of wack and the car doesnt run right, because it relies on O2 sensor feedback - which is now wrong because the sensors arent in their original location (yes, its that sensitive).

You shouldnt get lower fuel economy, at least not with my version. My long term MPG is 23.5, and on all highway I'll get 35. The N52 was designed to run with no MAF, that is the mode I use, it runs like it's factory stock because it is (mostly).

[CobraMarty]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

No, with headers it just doesnt work. The fuel trims get out of wack and the car doesnt run right, because it relies on O2 sensor feedback - which is now wrong because the sensors arent in their original location (yes, its that sensitive).

Question on this O2 sensor placement-
If I have a 'log' exhaust manifold basically all ports about 3" into a larger log with a rear bottom mount turbo-
If I put the O2 sensors on top of the manifold in the log at cylinder #2 and #5 in similar position to stock, Do you think that the MAF-less tune and O2 sensors would work OK?

[desertman123]

Can confirm lol I'm running headers with a 130i-based MAF delete tune (using the Euro IAT)

After a few hundred miles of both city and highway, the adaptations handled a bit of the weird running but it still isn't perfect. City MPG is lower than it was, but highway actually seems real good. Got a little bit more mileage than I usually do when bouncing between Daytona and Orlando.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Question on this O2 sensor placement-
If I have a 'log' exhaust manifold basically all ports about 3" into a larger log with a rear bottom mount turbo-
If I put the O2 sensors on top of the manifold in the log at cylinder #2 and #5 in similar position to stock, Do you think that the MAF-less tune and O2 sensors would work OK?

I doubt it, because stock the sensors each get a reading from 3 cylinders, while yours only gets a reading from one.

Might be better off putting one or both sensors in the collector. I'm not sure but I think you can configure the DME to use only one O2 sensor.

Did BPCs turbo car use a MAF?

[Terraphantm]

You have any idea as to which values would need to be adjusted? As I mentioned in the other thread, might as well study the S54 tunes a bit. O2 location is quite different between US and Euro

[CobraMarty]

If I place the O2 sensors at cylinders 3 and 5 then the O2 sensors would get readings from cylinders 1+2+3 and 6+5. One from 3 cylinders and the other from 2 cylinders,
better than just 1 cylinder.

The connection pipe for the turbo would probably be between 4+5 or at 5 cylinder on the bottom.

IDK what BPC did. I will have to look closer to their build of their turbo N52.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by Terraphantm

You have any idea as to which values would need to be adjusted? As I mentioned in the other thread, might as well study the S54 tunes a bit. O2 location is quite different between US and Euro

yeah, I know which maps they are - those euro headers look a lot like a typical N52 header, and might be a good clue. The trick is really finding which is the 'euro' map on the S54 Z4M - should be able to do that easily enough though.

[6ixSpd]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

yeah, I know which maps they are - those euro headers look a lot like a typical N52 header, and might be a good clue. The trick is really finding which is the 'euro' map on the S54 Z4M - should be able to do that easily enough though.

MSS54 Euro software numbers for the Z3M S54 cars:
7837920 — E36/7 EOBD — ZB 7837919**
7837922 — E36/7 SA861 — ZB 7837921**

Maybe that helps.

[Terraphantm]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

yeah, I know which maps they are - those euro headers look a lot like a typical N52 header, and might be a good clue. The trick is really finding which is the 'euro' map on the S54 Z4M - should be able to do that easily enough though.

There’s a few different part numbers depending on year or whatever, but the following should be good enough for comparison. They’re all in realoem.

Z4MR USA - 7840453
Z4MR ECE - 7840455

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

MSS54 Euro software numbers for the Z3M S54 cars:
7837920 — E36/7 EOBD — ZB 7837919**
7837922 — E36/7 SA861 — ZB 7837921**

Maybe that helps.

Yeah, MSS54 is quite different, its much older architecture. It doesnt have widebands, for example. We're specifically talking about the Z4M, which uses MSS70 - its like MSV70's twin brother (and a close cousin of MSx80). About 95% of the maps are the same, which is useful..

[Noir]

whp gains are negligible..

[Noir]

old email from the Wizard himself
Nutshell explanation for those like me

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Noir

old email from the Wizard himself
Nutshell explanation for those like me

Did you notice a difference on the dyno? I know I did 246whp on a off the shelf Mafless tune - looking to see how I can improve on it.

[hassmaschine]

my MAF delete tune does NOT run in open loop. I specifically do not call it Alpha-N because it's not Alpha-N at all.

[Noir]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Did you notice a difference on the dyno? I know I did 246whp on a off the shelf Mafless tune - looking to see how I can improve on it.

Sadly, I was a dunce and forgot my IAT the day I drove down. I guess Bob tweaked the stage 2 to match the title... From a buttdyno when I found/installed the sensor and reflashed, I cant really say there was much difference, in my opinion. The noted "not so smooth idle," was present. Im sure the couple extra ponies are there... but to reverse someones header setup for it to run like a top, I wouldn't say its worth it. Unless its like Bob said, track usage above all else. Even then, I am not too privy as to how the open loop map works to benefit the car in that environment.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

my MAF delete tune does NOT run in open loop. I specifically do not call it Alpha-N because it's not Alpha-N at all.

You've said this before - it's not true ALFA N.